9mm vs .45ACP

[mljdeckard]

I wouldn't use THIS particular test as a reason to throw out all industry standards and protocols. All premium defensive loads in service calibers are likely to penetrate at least 12".

And yes, every time you call a magazine a clip, God kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I wouldn't use THIS particular test as a reason to throw out all industry standards and protocols. All premium defensive loads in service calibers are likely to penetrate at least 12".

And yes, every time you call a magazine a clip, God kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens.

I think I'll start referring to them as ammo-sticks. Except for the double-stacks...those I'll call zig-zags.

That ought to cause a stir.

If this goes viral and ends up in the common lexicon for shooters, you read it here first. Which means you'll know who to curse...

 

[RBid]

Ammo sticks 'n zig-zags are the new peanut butter and jelly!

 

[joneb]

12" is the FBI minimum requirement.

I thought that # was 16 next time I talk to my retired FBI relative I will ask him. Perhaps even the FBI now believes Less is More

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I thought that # was 16 next time I talk to my retired FBI relative I will ask him. Perhaps even the FBI now believes Less is More

Here's a link about that which I found in another posting on THR. It's titled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" from the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

On page 11, it says:

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.

It's very a very revealing read. Take a gander at it.

 

[joneb]

It's very a very revealing read. Take a gander at it.

I agree.
Thank you Sir.

 

[joneb]

Here is another interesting read,
http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_StoppingPower.htm

 

[edmo01]

Ah, another "Which do you prefer: Blondes, brunettes, or redheads?" Thread?

What about motor oils? Which is better?

Edmo

 

[mavracer]

Even if they results are accurate, it is too little penetration for me, too. I like my ammo to penetrate in the 16 inch (give or take a couple inches) range.

Without calabrating the block you have no idea weather it's the consistancy of whipped cream or cement. The fact that they only penatrated 12" means nada.

 

[moto_stevo]

All the information I have seen shows premium self defense ammo performing VERY similarly. When it comes to ball ammo the .45 wins hands down. I don't know of anyone who carries lead ball ammo for self defense or concealed carry.

When it comes down to it... Which would you rather be shot with? I personally would avoid all of them, including .22 caliber.

 

[GLOOB]

If 9mm and 45 are equal, then where does that leave 40SW?

A 135 gr 40SW could be heavier, larger, and faster than the 124 gr +P load. It could have higher momentum and KE. And it would have just a smidge lower sectional density. Seems like with the right bullet construction, it would HAVE to beat the 9mm in penetration and/or expansion. A 150 gr bullet could be superior on paper in every way except possibly velocity, which would be very close to a tie. I've wondered why no 140 gr 10mm bullets. those would closely match 124 gr 9mm bullets in sectional density* and should then be equal or "better" than a 124 gr 9mm loading on paper in every conceivable way.

Makes you wonder why the heavier 40SW loads are more popular.

*Hmm, should probably whip out the calculator. That's just a guess, really.

Edit: turns out a 155 gr .400 bullet has the same sectional density as a 124 gr .355 bullet. I guess that theory is dead in the water.

 

[Pyro]

I don't know of anyone who carries lead ball ammo for self defense or concealed carry.

I did for a bit. Magtech makes it in most calibers.
Shot it all up though.

 

[moto_stevo]

Link isn't working

It was an interesting article about specifically engineered self defense ammunition in 9mm .40 and .45

I wish I had more info to post right now

 

[joneb]

Here's a fun site with lots of dead jello
http://www.brassfetcher.com/

 

[ilsrwy27]

Interesting... I'd like to see a test of 9mm 124 +P vs the 9mm 147 (both form the latest Ranger bonded line) out of a shortbarrel one of these days...

 

[coalman]

Food for thought:

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Interesting... I'd like to see a test of 9mm 124 +P vs the 9mm 147 (both form the latest Ranger bonded line) out of a shortbarrel one of these days...

Your in luck! The link jibjab posted in post #64 has lots of videos of various pistol/rifle rounds being tested in ballistics gel!

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

Go to the link, click "Handguns", then choose "9mm Luger".

 

[CDW4ME]

Food for thought:

I think that is too much food.
How about a smaller summarized portion.

I've got this much so far:

Diameter: 45 > 40 > 9mm
Weight: heavier HP bullets in a caliber tend to penetrate more than equivalent lighter HP bullets
Surface area: I'm going to assume that more is better. It appears to start at .55 caliber? Expanded diameter?

 

[The Man With No Name]

Personally I don't buy gelatin tests, calculations, or anything for a long time now other than what I see. That said I saw a guy shot in the stomach 4 times with .380 fmj. He survived and is still a menace in the community. I saw one shot in the head with a 45 fmj. Impressive damage and impressive exit with brains all over the ground. With a head shot like that which penetrates I feel a smaller caliber would have done the job also though. I saw a rottweiler head shot with a Winchester Ranger +P+ 9mm and the round split the scalp but didn't penetrate. I could go on and on about people and animals I've seen shot with various calibers. Suffice to say I don't find either to have magical stopping power but prefer larger bullets as they seem to get the job done alot more reliably alot faster. A 9mm at a high velocity will get the job done but the problem is that most people can shoot a 45 at a lower velocity more accurately given the same size and weight delivery vehicles. The 9mm +P or +P+ recoil in the light guns most people carry is just too much for average folks to handle imo. That is why I feel more are better at one extreme or the other, a low velocity .38 wadcutter (impressive wounds) or a full power .45acp.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Both. I carry both depending on clothing. I think both the 9mm and 45ACP have their place where each can shine.

 

[M7]

I think he's just expressing his preference. Even if they results are accurate, it is too little penetration for me, too. I like my ammo to penetrate in the 16 inch (give or take a couple inches) range.

Without calabrating the block you have no idea weather it's the consistancy of whipped cream or cement. The fact that they only penatrated 12" means nada.

I was not concerned about the block or its calibration.

I expressed my preference for ammunition that penetrates in the 16 inch (give or take a couple inches) range. It's not open to debate.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Your 9 may expand but the 45 will never shrink.

 

[mavracer]

I expressed my preference for ammunition that penetrates in the 16 inch (give or take a couple inches) range. It's not open to debate.

That's fine but 16" through what? IMHO 16" in whipped cream isn't good 16" into wet cement is probably plenty. 12" into 20% gel at 20 degrees would probably be well over 16" into 10% gel at 45 degrees. That's why the FBI protocols have standards for calibrating blocks, Judging these two rounds as having insufficient penatration because they only went 12" into this block is silly.

 

[Skribs]

I expressed my preference for ammunition that penetrates in the 16 inch (give or take a couple inches) range. It's not open to debate.

If I ever closed my opinions to debate, then I would never learn anything.

 

[M7]

That's fine but 16" through what? IMHO 16" in whipped cream isn't good 16" into wet cement is probably plenty. 12" into 20% gel at 20 degrees would probably be well over 16" into 10% gel at 45 degrees. That's why the FBI protocols have standards for calibrating blocks, Judging these two rounds as having insufficient penatration because they only went 12" into this block is silly.

You seem to have missed my point. I never said that the test was a valid test, I just expressed my preference. If you have a problem with the preferences that I have expressed, you'll have to deal with it. I am not your therapist.

If I ever closed my opinions to debate, then I would never learn anything.

Well, my preferences are my preferences.

I can have preferences and still be capable of learning. Despite your claim to the contrary, you probably can, too.

I would never presume to tell anyone what to think or what they must do and would expect that that courtesy would be extended to me.

If neither of you can do that, then there is little hope for meaningful discussion.