Why is 7x57 (AKA 7mm Mauser or 275 Rigby) not more popular?

[codytrucker]

THis ^^^probably deserves repeating.

We shooting types have been flirting with 7mm rifle rounds, from around 45mm to 60mm long cases. The wide array of rounds just labeled "280" being a good example, along with all the "6.8" labeled loads. And, of course, none of "us" can quite agree on whether it ought be a 'milder' military round, say 7x45; or an anti-game lightning bolt round closer to 7x60. So, what have "we" done? Well we've brought out every variant between those envelope edges. So, we get contrasts like .276Ross and the 280nato, and the 280rem, even the 276pedersen.

The 7x57 is kind of a middle-of-the-road answer.

Which has onuses like being "old school" or "not made here" to bias against the thing. It did not help that it was introduced at a time when militaries were torn between 6.5 loadings and "full power" cal..30 loads, so the 7x57 started as a bit of an orphan as was. The world then embraced all manner of "intermediate" cartridges, with varying amounts of public acceptance (or insistence).

And, of course, we ought not criticize, nor ostracize, any round a person adheres to successfully. Now, how the ammo companies sort out the economics of cranking out only a few thousand of each of the various kinds of thing we shoot, whether as assembled ammo or components is a different thing.

Perhaps, all that 7x57 'needs' is a self-loading platform, say something based on the AR-18--like as not, the hardest part would be engineering the magazine (something that gets skimped upon all too often).

When I was a kid a friend of mine's older brother had a Johnson rifle in 7MM . I never got to shoot it or see anyone shoot it , but that was one cool rifle !

 

[Bwana John]

Where did we face adversaries armed primarily with 7x57mm weapons in WWII?

Now if your are talking about 1898, then yes, I guess.

7.92mm Mauser in WW2
7mm Mauser in Spanish-American War

 

[Savage30L]

I think it tracks mostly to underloading the 7mm. If it had been loaded to 58,000 PSI by American ammo companies, it would have been a Pantheon cartridge.

Well, on second thought, maybe. It would have competed with the 30-06.....which had a head start in every way imaginable....

 

[CapnMac]

It would have competed with the 30-06.

Much as the .276pedersen, the .276enfield, and the .280Ross all did. M2 Ball prevailed as it was such an astounding MG round.

 

[.455_Hunter]

7.92mm Mauser in WW2
7mm Mauser in Spanish-American War

Exactly.

I am sure we did face LIMITED 7mm fire in WWII, as the Germans never met a captured or foreign weapons platform they didn't deploy in some fashion with reserve or volkstrum type units.

 

[1948CJ2A]

The 7x57 is the sweet spot for me in the 7mm arena followed closely by the 280 Rem. If you have a rifle that can handle modern pressures, you can handload the 7x57 to outperform the 7mm-08 due to case capacity. The longer neck of the 7x57 also allows for heavier bullets to be used without encroaching on the case capacity. Some might say the downside to that is the 7x57 has to be built on long action receivers. While its true that the 7x57 won't fit a short action (even though Remington crammed the 257 Roberts into their model 722), the Mexicans and Yugoslavians figured out they could make an "intermediate" action based on the model 98 Mauser. The Yugo version was 8x57 but same idea. I love these actions because they're literally made for the 57mm cases.

I shot my first deer with a 7x57 I built on a WW2 German Mauser 98 action that was already partially sporterized by my father. That rifle and my 25-06 Rem have accounting for more whitetail deer here in Texas than any other rifles in my safe(s). The handloaded ballistics combined with mild recoil and outstanding performance make it a favorite in my deer camp.

If you don't handload and have to rely on the anemic factory ammo when and where you can find it these days, then I don't blame folks for opting to other choices.

 

[35 Whelen]

Yes, yes, and I'm looking.
OK, I do not see a pressure tested reload any faster than SAAMI or cataloged factory loads.
I do not see a "modern" load as fast as what Western was claiming in 1939, but they were probably shooting a 30" military rifle, not a 24" SAAMI.

Sorry, but your definition of "overloading" doesn't align with currently reloading manuals.

Keep looking, Skippy. (SAAMI and C.I.P. set voluntary pressure standards, not velocity standards)

35W

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I find it ironic that now 7X57 chambered rifles and 16 gauge shotguns garner premiums. I love them both.

Seems like I've seen a combo or drilling at Simpsons featuring both together, though it seems like 7x57R is more common in the break actions. Ironic, since 7x57R brass is available right now and the rimless stuff ain't!

 

[Jim Watson]

Sorry, but your definition of "overloading" doesn't align with currently reloading manuals.

Keep looking, Skippy. (SAAMI and C.I.P. set voluntary pressure standards, not velocity standards)

35W

Strange, it says right here
SAAMI Z299.4 – 2015 – Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

Emphasis added.
Skippy over and out.

 

[luv2safari]

Seems like I've seen a combo or drilling at Simpsons featuring both together, though it seems like 7x57R is more common in the break actions. Ironic, since 7x57R brass is available right now and the rimless stuff ain't!

This Kreighoff Trumpf Primus is 16ga and 7X57R

It's also a 22 Hornet with the full length Keppler einstecklauf.

This Fortuna drilling is in 12ga and 7X57R. It was too heavy for me at my age, so it went to the right guy in TX, where it's whacking little jackrabbit sized deer and big hogs.

 

[Bcwitt]

It's un-American.

How about a 6mm Rem instead?

It's un-American.

 

[Riomouse911]

It may also have to do with ammo availability. Back when we were kids you could buy ammo at many hardware stores, department stores, 5 and dimes. I even remember a few gas stations selling ammo. Most of those nondedicated gun store places seemed to stock a limited selection of ammo, usually just a few boxes each in the most popular calibers.

Since Sears, Montgomery Wards, Coast to Coast, Ace Hardware, etc. always stocked the .22 LR, .30-30, .30-06, .270, .243, .308, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag rifles, and everyone sold boxes of cartridges in those calibers, I think many folks just bought rifles that they knew they could find cartridges for anywhere.

Sadly, many good European rounds like the 7x57, weren’t it.

Just a thought.

Stay safe..

 

[35 Whelen]

Strange, it says right here
SAAMI Z299.4 – 2015 – Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

Emphasis added.
Skippy over and out.

Well by-golly I stand humbly corrected!! I had not seen the velocity standards!

With that information in mind, it wasn't difficult too find pressure tested load data that exceeds SAAMI velocity standards for the 7x57mm as both Nosler and Speer published loads that did so. In fact some data exceeded the standards by as much as 200 fps.

We both learned something!

35W

 

[tubeshooter]

Well played, Professor Skippy... well played.

 

[entropy]

Back to maybe the 70’s or so and before, shooters that I knew didn’t have a bazillion rifles like we do now. Perhaps it is because I grew up in a rural farming area, but my uncle had maybe a half dozen center fires and that was more than anybody else I knew of. So, you had divided loyalties between a lot of basically equivalent calibers. There is nothing any of the 7mm’s, .30 calibers etc won’t do that the next one won’t do just as well for 95%+ of hunters. And guys then were hunters, not target shooters. This was also the heyday of the Weatherby, so faster was better.

As noted above, I suspect many of the guys shooting then had been on the receiving end of the 7x57 during WW II and weren’t keen on owning one.

More like they were on the receiving end of metric Mauser rounds, and lumped them all together. The Germans didn't really start "invading" 7mm Mauserland until they started losing WWII, did so quietly and peacefully, and we (the Mossad aside) didn't fight them there.

Much as the .276pedersen, the .276enfield, and the .280Ross all did. M2 Ball prevailed as it was such an astounding MG round.

That and we had gobs of it sitting around after WWI, and Ordnance " couldn't let it go to waste."

 

[mavracer]

Because 30/06, 270 and 308

 

[jdsingleshot]

Because 30/06, 270 and 308

Or, because Mauser model of 1893 put a damper on all future production of the cartridge.

 

[Lefty38-55]

My older bro has taken over 100 deer with a custom Brno 7x57 Mauser … all 1-shot kills. But then, he’s also one heck of a shot!

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Given the wide variety of choices we have it's not surprising. Is 8MM Mauser that popular ? Now for collectors an M1893 Mauser with Spanish-American War provenance or an OVS-Oranje-Vrystaat-M1893 is something of a grail gun.

 

[.308 Norma]

I even remember a few gas stations selling ammo. Most of those nondedicated gun store places seemed to stock a limited selection of ammo, usually just a few boxes each in the most popular calibers.

Yep. As I've mentioned before, when I was growing up (I graduated high school in 1966) my mom and dad owned and operated, a small country grocery store/gas station. They maintained a stock of the more popular "deer rifle" ammo (which the 7mm Mauser was one of), as well as a pretty good selection of shotgun ammo and "22 shells." They even sold a few guns by "special order" - that is they didn't keep any guns in stock, but they would order one for a customer if asked.
Below is a couple of pictures of one of the Winchester/Western catalogs my mom and dad had in their country store/gas station. As I've also said before - I spent more time with my nose in one of those catalogs than I ever spent with my nose in all of my schoolbooks combined.

 

[Litetrigger]

I think it still is somewhat popular in custom rifles - higher end blue-and-walnut jobs - and also in youth rifles.

Very true, and still remains popular with high-end custom gunsmiths for clients who want " something different" This 7X57 was built on '09
Argentine action by Al Bieson. It's the favorite of my Bieson rifles and the only rifle I've taken on a couple of African mixed game hunts. With 150gr Nosler Partitions loaded a shade over 2800fps it is wicked stuff.

 

[troy fairweather]

The 7x57 is probably the best balanced cartridge for whitetail hunting ever made, it was designed to kill 150-200 lbs animal's after all.

 

[hossfly]

Just dragged up an old thread I started about how much my bubba'd clunker Chilean impressed me. The gun is certainly more than capable of taking deer at "not-close" ranges. That gun us YOOgly but I don't see myself selling it because I enjoy playing with it. As far as why the cartridge more or less "died". People just have more practical choices now. If you want 7 mauser ballistics you can easily get a gun and ammo chambered in 7-08. Just plain a convenience thing.

Shocked by Chilean Mauser

Y'all I had to share this. I didn't have many loaded up so I stuck to 3 shot groups at 100 yards with this very Bubba'd Chilean I've have for decades but just haven't shot. Put this cheap scout scope on it and zero'ed it. I tried 3 loads. PPU factory 139's which were all over the place...

www.thehighroad.org

 

[Savage30L]

Just dragged up an old thread I started about how much my bubba'd clunker Chilean impressed me. The gun is certainly more than capable of taking deer at "not-close" ranges. That gun us YOOgly but I don't see myself selling it because I enjoy playing with it. As far as why the cartridge more or less "died". People just have more practical choices now. If you want 7 mauser ballistics you can easily get a gun and ammo chambered in 7-08. Just plain a convenience thing.

Shocked by Chilean Mauser

Y'all I had to share this. I didn't have many loaded up so I stuck to 3 shot groups at 100 yards with this very Bubba'd Chilean I've have for decades but just haven't shot. Put this cheap scout scope on it and zero'ed it. I tried 3 loads. PPU factory 139's which were all over the place...

www.thehighroad.org

My elderly friend who has been mentoring me in learning reloading skills, has a nice collection of military Mausers, including a Chilean one. I have not shot it but I'm impressed with the build and finish quality of them. If they'd made some with left-hand actions, I'd have sought them out.

In the 1930s, Zastava in Serbia made some left-hand Mausers which were imported by Charles Daly, but I've never seen one for sale anywhere. Herter's imported them again for a while in the 1960s, but by reputation, their build and finish quality weren't up to the standards of those from other European countries.

 

[Savage30L]

It may also have to do with ammo availability. Back when we were kids you could buy ammo at many hardware stores, department stores, 5 and dimes. I even remember a few gas stations selling ammo.

Nothing to do with 7mm, but a few years ago, I found Remington 20-gauge low brass #6 shells on sale at, of all places, a Meier grocery store in Lexington. $3.50/box, I bought all they had.