Why no bolt gun in 7.62x39 ,or 5.45×39mm?

[armoredman]

Sorry guy, but the cold truth is that x39 bolt guns don't sell. They have been tried many times by virtually every manufacturer, and they have bombed almost universally.

Yet CZ-USA can't keep them in stock...hokay, amigo.

If good ammo were commonly available for the 7.62x39 and it was less expensive than the others...

...of course, nobody would make inexpensive AND accurate ammo for one...

...then it might be a good short range/plinking gun.

Yep, absolutely worthless past 50 yards...



Guys, if you don't like it, that's great, LOTS of caliber choices out there, but please, understand it CAN be made to work better than what you can get out of ChiCom surplus through a WASR-10. It was never meant to compete with 308 or any other serious long range rifle, but for "short range" shooters like myself, it's works just fine.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I would dearly love to find/build a Savage Model 10 in 7.62x39. Either in a youth model or cut one down myself for my wife to deer hunt with. It would be a perfect set-up for her.

 

[HankC]

After acquiring one, I have really enjoyed shooting it with my son and that's reason enough for me to own it.

That is the big plus of a bolt gun in 7.62x39. I can share with my son and wife. Do have a few 308s, but that is a little too much for teen and female shooters. My 7.62x39 bolt guns are accurate with Wolf ammo and I would say almost shoot as well as my 308s since I can only afford shooting 7.62NATO surplus ammo anyway. If I reload, I may see no need for a x39 since I can always load light, but I don't and really feel no need for it since x39 steel case ammo is cheaper than reloading 308. I wish someone offers Savage 7.62x39 barrels. It will sell if priced under $200. As to why not many bolt guns in x39, my guess is limited source of .310 barrels. For liability reason, manufacturers may not want to build rifles for x39 on 308 bores. Rugers did that but had long lead in and caused accuracy problem.

 

[BCRider]

Around here sporterized Lee Enfields that have had the barrels cut down are just about a dime a dozen. It occurs to me that it could be a lot of fun to modify one to chamber the hand loaded 7.62x39 round as a fun lower recoil plinker.

I know that it's not along the line of the original topic for NEW rifles in this round but it does suggest a slick project.

 

[adelbridge]

It used to be an Sks cost $129 and an ak variant $400 so there was no room for a bolt gun in same caliber. Market has changed and demand reflects current ammo situation.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I love how people talk about the cz527 like you can just go to the store and buy one.

 

[AKElroy]

Well, the 7.62x39 cartridge is really underpowered for a rifle round. It works well for what it was intended. However, I can't think of another rifle cartridge that is moving any slower, except maybe the 300 Blackout, and that is made for subsonic ammo through a silencer.

Reckon how my even more anemic .30-30's have managed to harvest countless deer and hogs over the years? All this time I thought I was using enough gun.....

 

[clone]

My LGS ordered me a Savage 10fcm in 7.62x39, picked it up a couple months ago. I have been working up loads, so haven't really pushed its potential... yet, its showing great promise though. It is a .308 bore which is what I wanted as there is a better selection of .308 bullets. So far I'm happy with it.

 

[RCArms.com]

I love how people talk about the cz527 like you can just go to the store and buy one.

I hold a FFL01 and ended up buying mine retail from Cabelas because they happened to have one after weeks of looking for one.

 

[natman]

Yet CZ-USA can't keep them in stock...hokay, amigo.

It depends on exactly why they are not in stock. You seem to take it that they are flying off the shelves faster than CZ can crank them out.

That's possible, I suppose, but I suspect that what's happening is that demand isn't enough to justify CZ keeping the 527 production line running all year long, so they make a batch on a seasonal basis. Once it sells out, that's it until they free up a production line for another batch, resulting in periodic non-availability.

This is exactly what happens with certain types of ammunition (during normal times, everything is in short supply now). If I can't find any 25-35 Win ammo, I know to wait until the next seasonal production run. I don't think it's because there's so much demand for 25-35 ammo that Winchester can't possibly keep up.

 

[Bushpilot]

Reckon how my even more anemic .30-30's have managed to harvest countless deer and hogs over the years? All this time I thought I was using enough gun.....

AKElroy, the 30/30 is more powerful than 7.62x39, not less...

Armoredman, you obviously have spent a great deal of time working with this rifle/cartridge combo and while the groups from your hand loads are pretty good, especially when compared to the kind of groups that one usually sees from this cartridge, they really aren’t anything that extraordinary when you consider that you’re shooting handloads out of a top quality rifle. No offense intended, but I have seen CZ 527 and 550 rifles in other chamberings do better. What I would really like to see though is what your groups looked like when you shot the cheap, steel cased, surplus ammo. The ability to shoot cheap ammo, without the need to hand load, seems to be at the crux of this whole discussion, being the main reason expressed by most of the posters who are in favor of a bolt action 7.62x39. After all, if these rifles don’t perform when shooting cheap ammo and/or you introduce reloading into the mix, then there really isn’t any objective, performance reason for buying one. The fact that you also own an AK or SKS isn’t a valid, objective reason from a performance standpoint unless your bolt action 7.62x39 will shoot your cheap 7.62x39 ammo better than the SKS does… In short, IMO, if the bolt gun won’t shoot cheap surplus with a noticeable increase in accuracy compared to an SKS or AK then there is no logical reason in having one. You can argue that a bolt action provides for better sight options, stock fit or a better trigger but if it doesn't shoot the cheap surplus ammo well then what is the point of having first rate sights and trigger? So, if you have to pay for higher quality ammo or hand load in order to get the 7.62x39 to shoot well then why settle for 7.62x39 ballistics?

Those who are intrigued by the idea of a bolt action 7.62x39 as low recoil hunting rifle or by the availability of cheap ammo should consider this: You can buy a new 243, a cartridge with an excellent reputation for accuracy and shoot-ability, any day of the week for around $300 that odds are will shoot as well or better than a $900 CZ or $700 Savage in 7.62x39 does (certainly when they are shooting cheap ammo and likely when shooting good factory loads), has more energy at 150 yards than a 7.62x39 has at the muzzle and shoots so much flatter that the maximum point blank range is extended by almost 100 yards. All this performance comes with exactly the same amount of recoil. You can buy a fair amount of 243 ammo or reloading supplies with the $400-600 saved while easily outperforming the 7.62x39 in the process. That is a lot of performance to sacrifice for the convenience of not having another rifle caliber to buy ammo for or the availability of cheap ammo that probably isn’t going to shoot well anyway…..

 

[RCArms.com]

AKElroy, the 30/30 is more powerful than 7.62x39, not less...

Armoredman, you obviously have spent a great deal of time working with this rifle/cartridge combo and while the groups from your hand loads are pretty good, especially when compared to the kind of groups that one usually sees from this cartridge, they really aren’t anything that extraordinary when you consider that you’re shooting handloads out of a top quality rifle. No offense intended, but I have seen CZ 527 and 550 rifles in other chamberings do better. What I would really like to see though is what your groups looked like when you shot the cheap, steel cased, surplus ammo. The ability to shoot cheap ammo, without the need to hand load, seems to be at the crux of this whole discussion, being the main reason expressed by most of the posters who are in favor of a bolt action 7.62x39. After all, if these rifles don’t perform when shooting cheap ammo and/or you introduce reloading into the mix, then there really isn’t any objective, performance reason for buying one. The fact that you also own an AK or SKS isn’t a valid, objective reason from a performance standpoint unless your bolt action 7.62x39 will shoot your cheap 7.62x39 ammo better than the SKS does… In short, IMO, if the bolt gun won’t shoot cheap surplus with a noticeable increase in accuracy compared to an SKS or AK then there is no logical reason in having one.

Those who are intrigued by the idea of a bolt action 7.62x39 as low recoil hunting rifle or by the availability of cheap ammo should consider this: You can buy a new 243, a cartridge with an excellent reputation for accuracy and shoot-ability, any day of the week for around $300 that odds are will shoot as well or better than a $900 CZ or $700 Savage in 7.62x39 does (certainly when they are shooting cheap ammo and likely when shooting good factory loads), has more energy at 150 yards than a 7.62x39 has at the muzzle and shoots so much flatter that the maximum point blank range is extended by almost 100 yards. All this performance comes with exactly the same amount of recoil. You can buy a fair amount of 243 ammo or reloading supplies with the $400-600 saved while easily outperforming the 7.62x39 in the process. That is a lot of performance to sacrifice for the convenience of not having another rifle caliber to buy ammo for or the availability of cheap ammo that probably isn’t going to shoot well anyway…..

Range report on my 527M with some accuracy results using Barnaul and Golden Bear 123g JHP bulk ammo.

http://rcarms.com/106.html

 

[Jason_W]

I have one of the Zastava carbines on layaway. Seems like it will be a fun gun that will take deer at the ranges I commonly encounter.

Yes, there are more powerful rounds out there, but more power isn't always required or desired. I've fired both the 7.62x39mm and the .243. The x39 is the more pleasant of the two rounds, especially if you need to shoot without hearing protection on.

 

[scaatylobo]

Already have the ammo !

I have a 'few' rounds of 7.62 X 39 in Silver Bear and Golden bear as well as some high end stuff and some Chinese from a few decades past.

So now I want a reasonably accurate [ I did say reasonably ] rifle to shoot it from.

the CZ527 seems to fit the bill ,and my lgs says they are readily available.

I am looking forward to using it for anything I would use a 30-30 for.only with better results AND cheaper by a country mile.

 

[BCRider]

Having been down this issue of milsurp guns and ammo with my Mosins I feel that Bushpilot does make some good and valid points.

First off the ammo will be the limiting factor. Badly inconsistent ammo simply cannot shoot good groups regardless of how good the gun might be. Any differences will be due to the differences in the guns but in the end the good gun will still be limited by the ammo.

The groups shot by RCArms are pretty darn nice. Not amazing but nice enough for sure. But what does that same ammo do for groups when shot with the same care from an SKS or 858? In other words how much is due to the choice of gun and how much is the choice of ammo?

Well, for one answer to that let's look back at armoredman's posted target that shows a similar size group at 200 shot with his hand loads. That suggests that the handloaded ammo is twice as accurate. Not that I'm surprised.

Hey armoredman! Have you shot those handloads from an SKS or 858 at all? If you have it would offer a good insight on how much improvement is from the gun itself and how much is from the use of good ammo.

 

[scythefwd]

Joining in late here.. Havent even read everything yet.

You can turn a savage into a x39 fairly cheap. New barrel and open up the bolt face some. A member here built one that was doing .35" groups +/- a hair. Google Krochus Bench 7.62x39.

Also, while a lot of people consider the x39 a marginal deer cartridge.. its almost a ballistic twin to the .30-30. Kills over 200y are doable.

 

[RCArms.com]

Joining in late here.. Havent even read everything yet.

You can turn a savage into a x39 fairly cheap. New barrel and open up the bolt face some. A member here built one that was doing .35" groups +/- a hair. Google Krochus Bench 7.62x39.

Also, while a lot of people consider the x39 a marginal deer cartridge.. its almost a ballistic twin to the .30-30. Kills over 200y are doable.

I've been harvesting MN white tails with 7.62x39mm from SKS and AKM carbines for 20 years. At the ranges I hunt at, the 7.62x39 has proven time after time to be an effective deer killing round. Shot placement in the vitals remains the key factor and the 7.62x39mm will drive completely through the vitals just like every other centerfire rifle cartridge I have hunted with.

 

[RCArms.com]

Having been down this issue of milsurp guns and ammo with my Mosins I feel that Bushpilot does make some good and valid points.

First off the ammo will be the limiting factor. Badly inconsistent ammo simply cannot shoot good groups regardless of how good the gun might be. Any differences will be due to the differences in the guns but in the end the good gun will still be limited by the ammo.

The groups shot by RCArms are pretty darn nice. Not amazing but nice enough for sure. But what does that same ammo do for groups when shot with the same care from an SKS or 858? In other words how much is due to the choice of gun and how much is the choice of ammo?

Well, for one answer to that let's look back at armoredman's posted target that shows a similar size group at 200 shot with his hand loads. That suggests that the handloaded ammo is twice as accurate. Not that I'm surprised.

Hey armoredman! Have you shot those handloads from an SKS or 858 at all? If you have it would offer a good insight on how much improvement is from the gun itself and how much is from the use of good ammo.

That's a good point and ill have to drag the SKS to the range and shoot some 100 yard groups with the Barnaul ammunition. If anything, its a good excuse to go to the range.

 

[highlander 5]

I purchased a used Remington 799. This was the last of the Charles Daly rifles after he went bankrupt. Beware of this model as there are no replacement parts. Had mine for a month and the extractor broke,tried Remington for a new part they don't have them and know of no one that has them or plan to import parts or rifles. This was a Zastava carbine and designed like an older Sako action L46 or L461 I think.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

You can turn a savage into a x39 fairly cheap. New barrel and open up the bolt face some

Maybe you can point me to one of these new barrels. I have been searching the net with ZERO success.

 

[natman]

I purchased a used Remington 799. This was the last of the Charles Daly rifles after he went bankrupt. Beware of this model as there are no replacement parts. Had mine for a month and the extractor broke,tried Remington for a new part they don't have them and know of no one that has them or plan to import parts or rifles. This was a Zastava carbine and designed like an older Sako action L46 or L461 I think.

Just because Remington isn't interested anymore doesn't necessarily mean that the parts can't be had.

Here's the listing of US importers from the Zastava website:

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/retailers

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[highlander 5]

At that time which was 9 months parts ago were unavailable. Fortunately the shop had a 30 day warrantee and took the rifle back and gave me a store credit. Waiting on a CZ 527 that hopefully will be here in Sept. CZ is back order on this model to the tune of 1200 rifles. That was today as of 1o pm EST The newer Zastavas are mini Mauser actions the rifle I had looked nothing like a Mauser the extractor was more along the line of a 22 RF extractor. To have a new extractor made would have cost more than the rifle.

 

[MCgunner]

I'll keep my .308, thanks....

 

[RCArms.com]

I'll keep my .308, thanks....

The .308 is definitely a versatile cartridge, but definitely not well suited for the role of youth rifle that attracted me to the 527M in 7.62x39mm. Both my kids can handle the 7.62x39 bolt gun exceptionally well, but if I was to hand them my Ruger 77/308 custom, it would be an entirely different story.

The .308 shines past 300 yards with excellent ballistics and retained energy, but that's an distance that I would not elect to use the 7.62x39mm for harvesting deer anyway.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I'll keep my .308, thanks....

So will I MCgunner along with all the other calibers that I currently have. I want to add a bolt gun in 7.62x39 to that number,preferrably a Savage.