MachIVshooter
Member
If you're depending on something to save your life, it better friggin' work. I can think of many ways you'd be worse off with a gun that fails than simply not having one.
Why people buy the "Saturday Night Specials"?
- Thread starter stchman
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If you're depending on something to save your life, it better friggin' work. I can think of many ways you'd be worse off with a gun that fails than simply not having one.
I have known some folks that bought the Jennings, Bryco, Jiminez guns. Some reported they worked some reported they couldn't make it through a whole magazine without a malfunction. I have not owned a high point but most of the reports I have read & been told would indicate that they will work. I do own a couple of inexpensive guns. I have a Taurus PT 111 G2 that works way better than would expect for the $200 I gave for it. I also have an old Dan Wesson revolver I bought for $100 back in the 90's used that I really like. I also remember buying a Star 9mm back around that same time period for a really reasonable price. There have always been quality arms that can be had for decent prices if one looks around & asks the right question. Sometimes people just don't know what they don't know.
I have my dad's SNS. And I know exactly why he bought it. Coming from post war Germany, he wasn't a gun person, and didn't have a lot of extra money. But when he was twice attacked with potentially deadly force, he felt he needed something fast. This was almost 50 years ago, and nobody had ever told him white guys weren't "supposed" to date black girls in the South.
My first pistol was an RG25 in 25 ACP. It is one of those zamak pistols that others have mentioned in their posts. I don't remember how much I paid for it, but it was not a lot. I've had it for nearly 40 years and the finish shows considerable wear, but it shoots flawlessly every time I have asked it to.
I think the RCBS dies I bought to reload the cartridges cost more than the gun. It is loaded with Hornaday 35 grain XTP bullets on top of 1.5 grains of Bullseye which expands well but doesn't over-penetrate. At one point, I kept it in the bottom of my cash box for protection and its small size made it really convenient. Fortunately, while it was living in the cash box I never had to use it for anything other than a paperweight.
I think the RCBS dies I bought to reload the cartridges cost more than the gun. It is loaded with Hornaday 35 grain XTP bullets on top of 1.5 grains of Bullseye which expands well but doesn't over-penetrate. At one point, I kept it in the bottom of my cash box for protection and its small size made it really convenient. Fortunately, while it was living in the cash box I never had to use it for anything other than a paperweight.
MedWheeler
Member
A lot of law-abiding citizens have had their hides saved using these weapons, particularly those in .22 (Jennings, Jimenez, etc.) and .25 (FIE, Raven, etc.) In fact, I hear of far more such incidents than I do of those in which someone "loses" the encounter because their gun was "cheap."
The other most-recent posts above this one do good jobs of outlining why these guns sold, and why they continue to sell.
The other most-recent posts above this one do good jobs of outlining why these guns sold, and why they continue to sell.
Gun Master
Member
Saturday Night Specials
Most of the SNS's manufucturers from 50 years ago have gone out of bussines and disappeared. No surprise since little money was being made from their sale.
But, there are exceptions. Some have changed ownership and brand names.
The SNS's of today have had 50 years of experience and technology change, plus an (overall) economic boost.
IMHO, today's SNS is (by and large) a better gun than yesteryear's, and that is a major reason in answering the OP's question.
Most of the SNS's manufucturers from 50 years ago have gone out of bussines and disappeared. No surprise since little money was being made from their sale.
But, there are exceptions. Some have changed ownership and brand names.
The SNS's of today have had 50 years of experience and technology change, plus an (overall) economic boost.
IMHO, today's SNS is (by and large) a better gun than yesteryear's, and that is a major reason in answering the OP's question.
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danez71
Member
My mom has an RG22 that's got to be about 40 yrs old now. (I forgot the exact model but it's a 22lr with about a 1.5" barrel)
I took it shooting a few times and after a out 75 rounds, was only getting about 3 or 4 out of 6 to fire consistently; but not on the same cylinder position every time.
After I tightened the firing pin assembly, its been 100% reliable for about the 200 rounds I've put thru it since then and accurate enough at household distances.
She's since moved to east TX and bought. 38 from a new friend she made.... that I want to smack in the head for selling my 70+ yr old mom thats about 5ft 1" and 100 lbs a gun that's clearly too much for her.
Now I get to help her find something more suitable for her and cheap.... like a Saturday night special-ish gun.
All she wants is for it go BANG when she sees the white of their eyes.
No changing her mind.... what mom wants is what mom gets.
In her case, 1 round is better than a sharp stick or nothing.
The first brand new handgun I ever purchased was a Raven .25 ACP. The reason was simple: I turned 21 that day and wanted to exercise my right to buy a handgun: and of course that was all I could afford. I think it was $50. I have told this story before, but I was very much "into" guns and shooting since early childhood but I didn't know anything about stuff like .25 ACP handguns. I knew it wasn't the greatest thing in the world, but I had never read a thread like this telling me they were junk. So, I went blissfully on my way and every payday I would buy a box of factory ammo and shoot it. I even had a holster for it. I was attending the community college on the GI Bill at the time (worked part time washing dishes and was in the Army National Guard, so I had a little money) and a few guys that I went to school with suggested we go out shooting. So, we go out somewhere and there is a split rail fence and I started setting empty shotgun shell hulls up on the fence to shoot at. One of the guys there said something to the effect: what are you doing ? You can't hit those with that .25........ I said, yes I can (I knew I could, again, I shot this gun a fair amount). He said, I will bet you $20 that you can't hit five of those in a row. I took the bet and did it with no problem. I felt guilty for days because I took such a vast sum of money from somebody in a bet that I knew I would win.
Like a number of people have posted: they might not be great quality, and they might not be something to brag about, but they work and if you have good young eyes and no preconceived notions about them, they can actually shoot pretty good.
I don't own any Hi-Point handguns, but I used to own a Hi-Point 9mm Carbine. I shot it A LOT for several years and I was quite pleased with it. It functioned fine and shot more than good enough for what I was doing with it. I was plinking and shooting jack rabbits with it, I wasn't trying to make the US Olympic Team. I have however shot a few Hi-Point handguns and have a fair amount of experience with the Hi-Point company itself. A buddy of mine owns two Hi-Point handguns. He bought them just for the heck of it: he owns lots of fairly high end guns. I have shot his Hi-Point .45 ACP pistol several hundred times, on paper and I was more than satisfied with it. It functions flawlessly. I easily out-shot everybody else there with it (I need to point out that I shoot several times a week and have done so for most of my life). Again, would I take this to Camp Perry ? No. Would I buy this if I was intending to seriously compete in IPSC ? No. Would I trust my life to it ? Yes.
As far as the company itself: I used to live in a relatively small town and hung out a lot in the local gun store. The owner was a friend and all of the rest of my friends hung out in there as well. He sold A LOT of Hi-Points. Both carbines and pistols. When he had a problem, he called them and they did whatever was nessessary to correct the problem. They sometimes over-nighted him parts. They sometimes walked him through installing the parts over the phone. And once, he had a problem with a carbine and the owner of the company flew there to fix it. Seriously, the owner of the company flew there to fix it (I should point out that I lived near a very popular resort city and the owner probably took a trip there and wrote it off but he still came there and fixed the freakin gun).
Saying that Hi-Points are junk is outing yourself as a snob or someone who doesn't know what it is that they don't know.
As one guy posted earlier, I don't own any Hi-Point firearms at present: But, I have thought about buying one if the price was right strictly in order to mock gun snobs at the range as I out-shoot them.
Like a number of people have posted: they might not be great quality, and they might not be something to brag about, but they work and if you have good young eyes and no preconceived notions about them, they can actually shoot pretty good.
I don't own any Hi-Point handguns, but I used to own a Hi-Point 9mm Carbine. I shot it A LOT for several years and I was quite pleased with it. It functioned fine and shot more than good enough for what I was doing with it. I was plinking and shooting jack rabbits with it, I wasn't trying to make the US Olympic Team. I have however shot a few Hi-Point handguns and have a fair amount of experience with the Hi-Point company itself. A buddy of mine owns two Hi-Point handguns. He bought them just for the heck of it: he owns lots of fairly high end guns. I have shot his Hi-Point .45 ACP pistol several hundred times, on paper and I was more than satisfied with it. It functions flawlessly. I easily out-shot everybody else there with it (I need to point out that I shoot several times a week and have done so for most of my life). Again, would I take this to Camp Perry ? No. Would I buy this if I was intending to seriously compete in IPSC ? No. Would I trust my life to it ? Yes.
As far as the company itself: I used to live in a relatively small town and hung out a lot in the local gun store. The owner was a friend and all of the rest of my friends hung out in there as well. He sold A LOT of Hi-Points. Both carbines and pistols. When he had a problem, he called them and they did whatever was nessessary to correct the problem. They sometimes over-nighted him parts. They sometimes walked him through installing the parts over the phone. And once, he had a problem with a carbine and the owner of the company flew there to fix it. Seriously, the owner of the company flew there to fix it (I should point out that I lived near a very popular resort city and the owner probably took a trip there and wrote it off but he still came there and fixed the freakin gun).
Saying that Hi-Points are junk is outing yourself as a snob or someone who doesn't know what it is that they don't know.
As one guy posted earlier, I don't own any Hi-Point firearms at present: But, I have thought about buying one if the price was right strictly in order to mock gun snobs at the range as I out-shoot them.
Gun Master
Member
SNS Review
I currently own a Hi-Point 9mm Carbine, and I have had no problems.
Never have I owned a Hi-Point Pistol, but would strongly consider it, from my experience with the carbine and the testimonials on THR re: their pistols.
They seem to be a good, reliable, and inexpensive (but heavy) pistols.
They are "blow-back" operated (sounds tough on the wrists), so I don't have enough info on their "pistols" acceptability for my needs. (But I think I might buy one, if the price is right).
But, the question of if they qualify as a SNS, is still "up in the air", since they are large and heavy.
I currently own a Hi-Point 9mm Carbine, and I have had no problems.
Never have I owned a Hi-Point Pistol, but would strongly consider it, from my experience with the carbine and the testimonials on THR re: their pistols.
They seem to be a good, reliable, and inexpensive (but heavy) pistols.
They are "blow-back" operated (sounds tough on the wrists), so I don't have enough info on their "pistols" acceptability for my needs. (But I think I might buy one, if the price is right).
But, the question of if they qualify as a SNS, is still "up in the air", since they are large and heavy.
I own a Hi-Point C9 9mm the reason I purchased it was that was all I could afford, but with only 3 failures on first magazine I have shot over 400 trouble free, it is very accurate and very easy on hands to shoot.
As of 1st of Feburary it is my daily carry in a Fobus in the wast band holster, I will say it is heavy but I have no problem carring it all day.
They are definitely not junk and will outlast a lot of other brands, I did just buy a Remington RM380 but I think I will still carry the Hi-Point most of the time.
I have found most people that bash Hi-Point have never held one much less fired one.
I would recomend it to any of my family.
As of 1st of Feburary it is my daily carry in a Fobus in the wast band holster, I will say it is heavy but I have no problem carring it all day.
They are definitely not junk and will outlast a lot of other brands, I did just buy a Remington RM380 but I think I will still carry the Hi-Point most of the time.
I have found most people that bash Hi-Point have never held one much less fired one.
I would recomend it to any of my family.
Nathanael_Greene
Member
Many years ago I bought a little .25 auto FIE, pretty much as joke. I think I paid $39 for it, new-in-the-box.
It turned out to be a pretty decent little (and I mean little) pistol. It's very reliable and accurate, all things considered. It's never jammed and groups pretty well at limited distances.
I was looking for some cheap entertainment, and I definitely got my money's worth.
It turned out to be a pretty decent little (and I mean little) pistol. It's very reliable and accurate, all things considered. It's never jammed and groups pretty well at limited distances.
I was looking for some cheap entertainment, and I definitely got my money's worth.
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
+1 444
I kinda want to get a Hi Point just to see if I can out shoot some show ponies with $1k guns that can't hit a target. There is satisfaction beating someone with a ratty old tennis racquet/set of golf clubs/pistol that they have just jeered.
I kinda want to get a Hi Point just to see if I can out shoot some show ponies with $1k guns that can't hit a target. There is satisfaction beating someone with a ratty old tennis racquet/set of golf clubs/pistol that they have just jeered.
Hi Point's just look like junk.
Honestly, they look like crap and have terrible ergonomics, but they do tend to be cheap, reliable, surprisingly accurate guns. I definitely wouldn't classify them as Saturday Night Specials. They're more of a "I gotta have a gun that works, but I ain't got no money" guns.
Ironicaintit
Member
I had an old Rohm .22LR revolver that I gave to a friend. It was junk for sure, but it worked well enough.
I now have an FIE Titan II, .22LR semi-auto pistol that was junk because of abuse, but I've actually turned into a 98% reliable little piece. (Parts to fix it cost more than what I paid for it)
The hi-point 45 I had was cheap, but reasonably accurate, and that thing would eat any ammo at all, and never once had any type of malfunction.
Ugly as sin, but there's a lot to be said for a machine that works every time and doesn't care if you carelessly toss it around and neglect it.
I trusted it fully, and gave it to a relative in need.
Another time, I was at a new, much hyped gun store; they had a hi point 45 in the case, with a price of $300!
I told them I wouldn't be back, since they were obviously willing to take advantage of those who may not know better.
I'd own another, and be proud to sport the wares of a company that understands the value of self defense to those who aren't as well off.
I now have an FIE Titan II, .22LR semi-auto pistol that was junk because of abuse, but I've actually turned into a 98% reliable little piece. (Parts to fix it cost more than what I paid for it)
The hi-point 45 I had was cheap, but reasonably accurate, and that thing would eat any ammo at all, and never once had any type of malfunction.
Ugly as sin, but there's a lot to be said for a machine that works every time and doesn't care if you carelessly toss it around and neglect it.
I trusted it fully, and gave it to a relative in need.
Another time, I was at a new, much hyped gun store; they had a hi point 45 in the case, with a price of $300!
I told them I wouldn't be back, since they were obviously willing to take advantage of those who may not know better.
I'd own another, and be proud to sport the wares of a company that understands the value of self defense to those who aren't as well off.
Saddlebag Preacher
Member
I actually have a RG .22 that has been loaded for years and is occasionally shot for one reason or another. It was confiscated from an idiot in the 1980's who dropped it while trying to pull it out of his pocket to shoot me (I'm retired LEO). The court awarded it to me (they would do that in those days after a conviction in the rural areas). It stayed in the head board at a fishing cabin for years and was used to take with us in case of snakes or whatever.
It is small and fits into a pocket and really doesn't even print. It goes bang every time and is inaccurate past 4 or 5 yards. But is sets on top of a shelf in the living room and is still loaded and has been used to put small pests here on the farm out of their misery.
Would not use as a self defense gun, but if it was all I had, well that's a different story. Many folks back in the day carried the cheap guns in .22, .25 and .32. You must remember, most states had no CCW laws that allowed most people to carry a gun, so they bought small, cheap guns that they could ditch if they needed to or if they were discovered by a cop, they weren't out the money of a good expensive handgun when the court took it away if they were convicted.
It is small and fits into a pocket and really doesn't even print. It goes bang every time and is inaccurate past 4 or 5 yards. But is sets on top of a shelf in the living room and is still loaded and has been used to put small pests here on the farm out of their misery.
Would not use as a self defense gun, but if it was all I had, well that's a different story. Many folks back in the day carried the cheap guns in .22, .25 and .32. You must remember, most states had no CCW laws that allowed most people to carry a gun, so they bought small, cheap guns that they could ditch if they needed to or if they were discovered by a cop, they weren't out the money of a good expensive handgun when the court took it away if they were convicted.
crazyjennyblack
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2008
- Messages
- 391
I have a couple of Jennings pieces. I bought the first when I was poor and couldn't afford much. I bought the second on a whim because it was cheap and a friend was getting rid of it. Surprisingly, both work much better than their reputation. My Jennings pocket .22 has been utterly reliable when fed CCI mini mags (round nose). It actually saved my skin twice - once from an attempted carjacking (not fired), and once from a dog that wanted to take a chunk out of me. That gun is probably the best $60 I ever spent. I carry other stuff now, but it has sentimental value.
My Bryco/Jennings/Jimenez T380 is just good cheap fun. Heavy for a .380 and bigger than I'd want for carrying 8 rounds, but it fits my hand and feels good. It has classic lines and actually looks attractive too. I wouldn't feel bad carrying it, it's just that I have better stuff. Again, for the $120 I shelled out, it was well worth it.
I've handled some other cheapo guns that didn't feel right. Read "anything made by Cobra." I'm sure they go bang, but they just don't have the charm of some of the others. Hi Point pistols are reliable and accurate, but too chunky for what you get. I love the carbines, though. I think it mostly comes down to personal preference. Don't knock it til you've tried it...
My Bryco/Jennings/Jimenez T380 is just good cheap fun. Heavy for a .380 and bigger than I'd want for carrying 8 rounds, but it fits my hand and feels good. It has classic lines and actually looks attractive too. I wouldn't feel bad carrying it, it's just that I have better stuff. Again, for the $120 I shelled out, it was well worth it.
I've handled some other cheapo guns that didn't feel right. Read "anything made by Cobra." I'm sure they go bang, but they just don't have the charm of some of the others. Hi Point pistols are reliable and accurate, but too chunky for what you get. I love the carbines, though. I think it mostly comes down to personal preference. Don't knock it til you've tried it...
Twiki357
Member
Not sure if my Llama Micro-Max 380 qualifies as a Saturday night special, probably just a step above… Or below in some peoples opinion. When I escaped California in favor of Arizona back in 2002, it was the first gun I bought the day I got my AZ driver’s license for a whopping $218. My next smallest gun at the time was a Browning Hi-Power so I passed my CCW test with flying colors with that Llama. Never had a problem with it.
Nathanael_Greene
Member
Actually, Twiki357, I think the Micro-Max is way above a SNS. I haven't seen a lot of them, but they've all been good-looking, reliable, accurate, and fun little pistols. Might be the best product in Llama's history. I wish I had one.
Sistema1927
Member
Even poor people have a right to self defense.
They might not live in good neighborhoods or be able to afford security systems and motion detector lights, so they should be able to have the means to defend themselves.
They aren't going to the range and shooting thousands of rounds either, since they can't afford either the range fees or the ammo. They just need something that will work to fend off the evil doers, and often just the sight of a gun will do the trick.
As a result, there is a place for the cheap guns that we gun snobs turn our noses up at.
They might not live in good neighborhoods or be able to afford security systems and motion detector lights, so they should be able to have the means to defend themselves.
They aren't going to the range and shooting thousands of rounds either, since they can't afford either the range fees or the ammo. They just need something that will work to fend off the evil doers, and often just the sight of a gun will do the trick.
As a result, there is a place for the cheap guns that we gun snobs turn our noses up at.
I used to work at Gunstore in '98 and '99. One day the manager overheard me and another salesmen give our opinion of the Hi-Point to a customer. That opinion consisted of "It's a piece of junk, you'd be better off going across the street to Home Depot and buying a brick. At least that might work if you have to throw it at someone".
Apparently the manager didn't like that opinion all that much. When confronted about it neither of us backed down, we weren't going to lie and sell people junk guns when their lives might depend on those guns. The next morning he asked all the employees what their opinion of the Hi-Point was. To a man everyone stated that they thought that it was a total piece of crap.
The manager organized a shoot where all the sales staff took a trade in High Point 9mil out shooting. Each of us took turns shooting it. No malfunctions the entire day. The whole thing was top heavy. The trigger was horrible, the reset long. I had to take my finger completely off the trigger in order to get it to reset, but it worked.
So our collective opinion became junk that actually worked.
We did actually stock Loricins, Jennings, Bryco's, Davis and other cheap Ring of Fire pistols. Not many, but we carried them. When we sold them it wasn't because any of the sales staff was pushing them except for one assistant manager who was bucking for manager who was without any scruples. Most of us just steered customers away from those towards something else that worked, police trade in S&W 38's and .357's, various Hungarian FEG models, Makarov's, Ruger 95's and S&W Sigma's (when they were on sale) and occasionally after that shoot even Hi-Points.
The Jennings, Davis, Loricin, Bryco and Phoenix pistols weren't so much dangerous to the shooter (unless the owner was involved in a violent confrontation and he/she suddenly had an inoperable pistol) as they would just quit working because some small part broke rendering the pistol inoperable. So we never had one blow up on a customer, but we sent a fair number back.
Apparently the manager didn't like that opinion all that much. When confronted about it neither of us backed down, we weren't going to lie and sell people junk guns when their lives might depend on those guns. The next morning he asked all the employees what their opinion of the Hi-Point was. To a man everyone stated that they thought that it was a total piece of crap.
The manager organized a shoot where all the sales staff took a trade in High Point 9mil out shooting. Each of us took turns shooting it. No malfunctions the entire day. The whole thing was top heavy. The trigger was horrible, the reset long. I had to take my finger completely off the trigger in order to get it to reset, but it worked.
So our collective opinion became junk that actually worked.
We did actually stock Loricins, Jennings, Bryco's, Davis and other cheap Ring of Fire pistols. Not many, but we carried them. When we sold them it wasn't because any of the sales staff was pushing them except for one assistant manager who was bucking for manager who was without any scruples. Most of us just steered customers away from those towards something else that worked, police trade in S&W 38's and .357's, various Hungarian FEG models, Makarov's, Ruger 95's and S&W Sigma's (when they were on sale) and occasionally after that shoot even Hi-Points.
The Jennings, Davis, Loricin, Bryco and Phoenix pistols weren't so much dangerous to the shooter (unless the owner was involved in a violent confrontation and he/she suddenly had an inoperable pistol) as they would just quit working because some small part broke rendering the pistol inoperable. So we never had one blow up on a customer, but we sent a fair number back.
Nothing wrong with a high point 9mm. How can you screw up a blowback gun? Its probably more reliable of a firearm than a lot of much higher dollar regular 9mm's. They might have horrid triggers but if you are shooting at someone robbing your apartment what do you care. Its not a target gun. Use them for what they are.
buckhorn_cortez
Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2010
- Messages
- 532
What a bizarre thread. People working really hard at justifying the need for "poor people" to be able to buy cheap guns.
I just don't care what other people buy or can afford.
When I was in college I worked part time. With that small amount of money I somehow managed to pay for college, make a house payment, pay taxes, buy my own health insurance, etc. - and save enough money to purchase a Detonics Combat Master for a carry gun.
However, I also did not waste money on buying cigarettes, liquor, fast food, vacations, restaurants, etc.
At some point, it also comes down to priorities as to HOW you spend your money and not just the gross amount you have available.
You want a cheap gun? Fine by me. I really don't care what you buy.
I just don't care what other people buy or can afford.
When I was in college I worked part time. With that small amount of money I somehow managed to pay for college, make a house payment, pay taxes, buy my own health insurance, etc. - and save enough money to purchase a Detonics Combat Master for a carry gun.
However, I also did not waste money on buying cigarettes, liquor, fast food, vacations, restaurants, etc.
At some point, it also comes down to priorities as to HOW you spend your money and not just the gross amount you have available.
You want a cheap gun? Fine by me. I really don't care what you buy.
giggitygiggity
Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
- Messages
- 2,251
Yeah they are junk. A blind man can see that. For those who say "maybe that's all someone can afford," I'd argue that if a $75-100 is all someone can afford and the genuinely "need" a firearm, that person would probably be better served with a break barrel single shot shotgun (think H&R or Rossi) loaded with defensive loads vice a junker that shoots .25ACP. Better yet, that person would probably be best served by saving their money as while I like and buy guns like hot cakes, they are commodities and not necessities. If I only had $100, I'd be saving that money for food or pocketing it until I had some money which afforded me the opportunity to choose between a $100 junker and a $300 reliable handgun.
I'm sure someone will say that some people "need" a firearm for self-defense because they live in the ghetto and while that may be true of some, I'd submit that most guns are bought out of interest and want rather than genuine fear of having to defend one's life. So yes, while there might be some people with a legitimate "need" for a firearm for self defense, and a $100 Saturday Night Special is all they can afford, those people are the exception and not the norm.
I'm sure someone will say that some people "need" a firearm for self-defense because they live in the ghetto and while that may be true of some, I'd submit that most guns are bought out of interest and want rather than genuine fear of having to defend one's life. So yes, while there might be some people with a legitimate "need" for a firearm for self defense, and a $100 Saturday Night Special is all they can afford, those people are the exception and not the norm.
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