Why so many rounds?

[Chuck R.]

I kind of get the feeling that this is one of those confidence boosting threads trying to say that six , seven or eight rounds is enough--especially if you aim and aren't spraying rounds. I don't feel undergunned carrying a .357 or a .44 because I have confidence in my ability to use these guns. But, I also don't begrudge those who want fifteen rounds and I don't assume that they won't be aiming just because of the number of rounds.

Find a gun that shoots well, train to be fast and accurate with it no matter how many rounds you have.

Agreed!

I think that Mas Ayoob summed it up in an article he wrote a little while ago, the gist:

Carry more ammo than me and you're a paranoid SWAT wannabe....
Carry less ammo than me and you don't take your SD seriously enough to carry an effective weapon....

Truth lies somewhere in the middle. What I always do get a kick out of though is how these "capacity" threads always somehow mention "spray and pray" as if it's a function of capacity, and not a lack of training. Truth is, the untrained shooter with the lower capacity firearm is just going to run out of ammo sooner........

Chuck

 

[Ironicaintit]

Anybody else chuckling at the irony of gun guys asking gun guys; "why do you need so many bullets?"

 

[jdh]

Just because you do not see the need does not mean the need does not exist.

As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says "Wolves travel in packs."

 

[loneviking]

Just because you do not see the need does not mean the need does not exist.

As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says "Wolves travel in packs."

It's easy to come up with sayings like that, but try to prove it. Over on Facebook, as an example, I track the daily postings from a couple of concealed carry pages. Usually the threat is one to two guys. Occasionally there's three, very rarely four and those are almost always home invasions where you should have access to multiple weapons and abundant ammo.

So, here's a challenge for you. Just take this last year and try to find six incidents, from the streets of America, in which a concealed carrier had to defend against three or more bad guys. I think you'll be surprised at how rare those incidents are.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Did anyone ever say after a fire fight, "Gee! I wish I had had less ammunition?"

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Did anyone ever say after a fire fight, "Gee! I wish I had had less ammunition?"

Gotta agree. Only a drowning man even thinks that.

There is only one time in my life when I had a pistol in my hand for a real defensive purpose.

There was not a moment when I thought that I had too many rounds.

There was for sure a moment when I thought that more would have been good to have. I was fairly certain that the aggressor was on some kind of gnarly substance.

Lucky for me (and him!) the cops showed up in time.

 

[mokin]

I'd be comfortable with seven rounds in a 1911 and a spare magazine but since my G29 holds 10, that's what I have.

 

[loneviking]

Did anyone ever say after a fire fight, "Gee! I wish I had had less ammunition?"

They probably were surprised at how little ammo was needed, and that's the point. After a lot of years of being scarce, there's now a number of single stack 9's and 45's, lightweight and not as bulky as the high cap guns so they are easier to carry. But is 6,7,8 or 9 rounds enough? There's quite a few new CCW holders who could comfortably carry these guns every day---but for all the fear mongering and assertions that they'll be facing armed hordes and will be helpless without 30, 40 or 50 rounds.

 

[Yo Mama]

Reality now in our world, doesn't matter where you are, it's no longer the single assailant you need to worry about. Most often, violent attackers come in pairs or more. Home invasions are commonly done by 3 or more people.

So why have increased capacity? Because every second you are reloading are seconds you're going to be shot at.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I carry a G19 90% of the time and especially while hunting. For in-town carry I find it fits my hand best with the exception of a few other pistols like a Government size 1911. I have carried it for so long I rarely notice the weight but I certainly notice the lack of weight when its not there. Where I hunt we can run into anything from moose to grizzly bears to mountain lions. I keep a pistol on me with a sufficient number of rounds for that reason and because I can use it for signaling in an emergency. There are many uses for such a handgun if one is lost in the woods (which I don't plan on being). The main thing is that more rounds equals more options and the only tools you have when in a survival situation are what you brought at the time you realize you are in that type of situation. For those times where the G19 is too large for discrete carry I have a much smaller gun that fits in the pocket.

 

[JohnKSa]

...I always think “Why the excitement, why not aim?”.

A defender can aim and still need a significant number of rounds to end an attack. For one thing, pistols are notoriously poor stoppers, even with solid center of mass hits. For another, pistols are quite a bit harder to shoot accurately than rifles. For another, one is not guaranteed to be faced with only one attacker. Finally, even people who shoot very well often find their skills degrade when they're being shot at--or after having been shot/wounded.

When two tons or more of pissed-off thing with sharp horns, teeth, or tusks is incoming at 20-30 miles per hour from fifty or even a hundred feet away, you have a couple of seconds to hit the right spot...

One very pertinent difference is that until the animal is in contact range, the defender is under no danger at all from anything except his own nerves. On the other hand, an armed attacker can kill or wound a defender without closing the distance. That puts considerable pressure on a defender to react as swiftly as possible and may even result in the defender having to operate after having been wounded.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

A defender can aim and still need a significant number of rounds to end an attack. For one thing, pistols are notoriously poor stoppers, even with solid center of mass hits. For another, pistols are quite a bit harder to shoot accurately than rifles. For another, one is not guaranteed to be faced with only one attacker. Finally, even people who shoot very well often find their skills degrade when they're being shot at--or after having been shot/wounded.

To add, aiming under extreme pressure is not as easy as some people seem to think.

Heck take them to a shooting competition and see how well they shoot under time clock pressure. I have seen (and personally experienced, in my earlier days) people completely miss a target not 6 feet away. The pressure got to them and they goofed.

Now I am a guy who carries an 8+1 but I am certainly not going to knock a guy who puts a 15-20rnd mag in his carry gun. More power to him.

 

[GRIZ22]

No one ever complained they had too much ammo in a gunfight.

I've been shooting 50 years and been a LE firearms instructor for over 40. I guess I meet your definition of old guy. I feel comfortable carrying a 5 shot J frame backed up by a 7 shot 380 most of the time. BTW I carry a reload for both. If I'm going into a higher threat environment I'll carry a 1911 or more often a 9mm with 15 or 16 rounds. Still carry a bug though.

Those who criticize multiple shots in a gunfight haven't been in one. Yes, there are people who talk of coolly taking headshots
Easy to do on the range. Not so easy in a fight when your target is shooting back and moving.

Some actual incidents:

NYPD detective who always qualified expert in a hostage situation. Only one hostage taker. Fired his M36 5 times. Hit the BG once which stopped him.

NYPD officer off duty caught in an armed robbery. 3 BGs. Pulled her M36, put 2 rds in 2 of them and 2 rd in the other. All torso hits. Good shooting. Problem was 1 BG was not out of the fight and managed to shoot her. No time for a reload cop took a hit and the BG took off. This was one of the incidents that convinced NYPD to adopt 9mms. Initially NYPD was only authorized to carry 10 rd magazines and fmj. Fortunately both policies changed long ago.

Friend who is a now retired Federal agent found himself in a supermarket robbery. He was armed with a 5 shot J frame. Turned into an exchange of gunfire. He hit the BG 4 out of 5 times. All torso hits. BG didn't go down until the 4th hit. BG still had 6 rds left in his 9mm when he went down. My friend never carried a 5 shot after that and went to a 13 rd 9mm.

Convincing yourself that everyone is going to go down with that one well placed round or even a double tap or triple tap is foolish. In a one on one situation shooting until they go down is the correct strategy. Deal with multiple assailants by putting 1 or 2 in each and keep doing it until they go down. Plenty of instances where someone took multiple hits from a shotgun or rifle and still stayed in the fight.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

I'd just like to say, there is a world of difference, between dangerous four legged predators and dangerous two legged predators, who roam in packs!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

About the only thing we can say about how much ammunition one should have is that having NO ammunition is NOT enough.

Beyond that, any amount is subjective and one may cite any number of circumstances to justify one point of view over another.

If you carry a firearm, carry ammunition. How much is up to you.

 

[1stmarine]

In a perfect world without thugs and violence nobody would need to worry about defensive firearms and carry pistols.
It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Firearms are not supposed to be comfortable but comforting.

 

[Plan2Live]

Why so many rounds in the magazine?

I'll offer my opinion on what the real answers are.

1. #1 top real answer is....because that's what we/they (those that do) choose to do. Local laws aside, it really comes down to personal preference. As for what often shapes that personal preference, keep reading.
2. My #2 top best answer is, because this is America. In America most of us live in houses larger than we need. We drive vehicles that are larger than actually we need. As a group we eat more than we should so we weigh (on average) more than we should. We invented the soda cup that is so large it won't fit the cup holders in our over-sized vehicles. We buy in bulk. We buy 72" riding lawnmowers to maintain our 1/4 acre lots. We invented the Buy-One-Get-One and the All-You-Can-Eat concepts.
3. Because that's what real operators carry.
4. Because James Yeager/Pat McNamara/Chris Costa tell us we need to carry that many. See #3.
5. Because that's what everybody else carries.

In reality it's not as bad as you think. There are lots of members here who regularly carry between 5 and 10 rounds so in reality it's probably more of a perception that everyone carries higher capacity magazines than carry lower capacity. The more pertinent question is "why do you choose to carry what you carry"?

 

[jdh]

Duplicate deleted

 

[GEM]

Old debate - one side says the average will always happen with 3 shots fired and if you carry more you are a spraying and praying nut. No concept of statistical distributions.

Others say that you don't plan for the average but a reasonable cut off in extreme cases. Like in statistical decision theory.

What else is new? It is not hard to carry a semi and an extra magazine if you want to.

Now, Africa - what is the appropriate model? Stalking a wild animal or the Westgate Mall? In the latter, the folks who entered the mall with handguns when the police froze in place, commented on how they thought they needed more ammo.

If you think that you will never face more than 2 people and fire two shots, then a derringer works for you. Internet folks never miss.

 

[jdh]

It's easy to come up with sayings like that, but try to prove it. Over on Facebook, as an example, I track the daily postings from a couple of concealed carry pages. Usually the threat is one to two guys. Occasionally there's three, very rarely four and those are almost always home invasions where you should have access to multiple weapons and abundant ammo.

So, here's a challenge for you. Just take this last year and try to find six incidents, from the streets of America, in which a concealed carrier had to defend against three or more bad guys. I think you'll be surprised at how rare those incidents are.

Here are six where the victim of a mass assault should have been armed but was either not allowed to be armed or made the choice not to be.

http://www.breitbart.com/california...-mob-chases-beats-white-man-wearing-maga-hat/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/05/07/police-virginia-man-fatally-beaten-stabbed-by-mob-at-party.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-mob-attack-san-francisco-20160520-snap-story.html

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/5854456-181/man-beaten-by-mob-in

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/20/man-seriously-injured-in-savage-soma-mob-attack/

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/man-severely-beaten-by-mob-shouting-you-voted-trump-6248405/

 

[loneviking]

Here are six where the victim of a mass assault should have been armed but was either not allowed to be armed or made the choice not to be.

http://www.breitbart.com/california...-mob-chases-beats-white-man-wearing-maga-hat/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/05/07/police-virginia-man-fatally-beaten-stabbed-by-mob-at-party.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-mob-attack-san-francisco-20160520-snap-story.html

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/5854456-181/man-beaten-by-mob-in

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/20/man-seriously-injured-in-savage-soma-mob-attack/

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/man-severely-beaten-by-mob-shouting-you-voted-trump-6248405/

Your examples fail. First, four are in California and one is in Chicago. These are all strict gun control areas, the savages that live there know it and if you go there you know you're asking for trouble. That goes double for political rallies where your party is a hated minority and the savages have nothing left to lose.

The last one isn't a good example either as we have no idea what the guy who was beaten did.
Find me cases of armed robberies, car jackings, attempted kidnappings--that is the typical situation a CCW carrier will encounter.

 

[1stmarine]

Switzerland have a high % of gun ownership per-capita. Not by individual but by house-hold. Compulsory service and regular qualification
Plus easy access to combat loads and automatic weapons. It turns out it is one of the safest places on earth to live.
Plus they are truly civilized people so that also helps.
Politicians have ethics and show accountability, as estrange as that might sound.

 

[Sarge]

While I may not be the worlds best shot (althought I have qualified Expert in the military - on a combat course, Not on a paper target course), I have also used my Hi-Power in combat and walked away from the fight!

What I carry depends on what I'm doing and where. Also what the weather is.
I carry either a PA 63 in 9mm Makarov (7+1) or a Browning Hi-Power (14+1). I do not usually carry an extra mag on me, but often times have one in the car. More likely to have an extra on me with the PA 63 though.
If I can't solve the problem with the ammo I have then at about the last 2 or 3 rds I will do my best to disengage and get the hell out of the area.

As with most here, and elsewhere, I do not look for trouble - But I will Not run from it either!
Sarge

 

[Ironicaintit]

Your examples fail. First, four are in California and one is in Chicago. These are all strict gun control areas, the savages that live there know it and if you go there you know you're asking for trouble. That goes double for political rallies where your party is a hated minority and the savages have nothing left to lose.

The last one isn't a good example either as we have no idea what the guy who was beaten did.
Find me cases of armed robberies, car jackings, attempted kidnappings--that is the typical situation a CCW carrier will encounter.

Geez man, you're looking for "typical", when the reason we carry is to try and fend off the "highly unlikely".

 

[jdh]

Your examples fail. First, four are in California and one is in Chicago. These are all strict gun control areas, the savages that live there know it and if you go there you know you're asking for trouble. That goes double for political rallies where your party is a hated minority and the savages have nothing left to lose.

The last one isn't a good example either as we have no idea what the guy who was beaten did.
Find me cases of armed robberies, car jackings, attempted kidnappings--that is the typical situation a CCW carrier will encounter.

Exactly the response I expected, even after I said should have been but were not allowed to be.