Will shotguns play a bigger role in urban combat in the future?

[Kenshin]

Just your take on it. Urban combat seems to be gettin closer and closer these days.....

 

[Crosshair]

Only real significan role I see is blowing off locks and hinges. Even in an urban setting the shotgun has far too short of a reach IMHO.

 

[calzoom]

Urban Shotguns

Shotguns will indeed play a large part. Take a look at the evening news about Iraq. Notice what the guys are packing. Read the forums about the soldiers in Afganistan and Iraq. Shotguns are there in bigger numbers than one would believe. Specially in urban areas. One of the most popular guns in Nam were 12 ga..........Check it out, you'll see.

Recently it was revealed by historians the the Shotgun was more of what settled the west than the Colt 45. Good luck with your search.

 

[c_yeager]

I see them getting an increasingly small role in the actual practice of killing bad guys. They are becoming greately used in less than lethal applications and for blowing off locks, but organized military and police forces seem to be emphasizing the short rifle for all other serious purposes.

 

[Crosshair]

The problem with shotguns is that even the most basic body armor will stop a shotgun at extended range. The best soft body armor will stop 00 buck cold. Most of the armor the terrorists have is crap, but it WILL stop shotguns at their outer limit of range.

 

[Mad Chemist]

What about this?http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/

 

[c_yeager]

What about this?http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/

Pretty gimicky if you ask me. I remember some tests being done on fletchet type ammunition for shotguns that proved to be pretty disapointing. That was a long time ago, and maybe things have changed, but I really dont see anything to indicate that. Its one of those things that seem like a great idea, but dont work out too well.

 

[sgist]

At extended range I don't think there are many people that will argue for shotgun use, but at close range- pistol range to 50 yards they are scary.

 

[AStone]

defining 'urban combat'

Urban combat seems to be gettin closer and closer these days.....

As guy who owns an 870P for HD/SD, this is an interesting topic.

FTR, I don't plan to go into "combat" with this one. (I don't plan to go into combat at all if I can avoid it.) For me, it's all about stopping a criminal intruder - not a soldier - who comes into my house/studio/camp and fails to stop at a reasonable buffer zone.

Still, I'm curious, Kenshin, what is the nature of the 'urban combat' of which you speak?

Are you talking about soldiers, per se - as in urban Iraq - or about the average citizen caught up in an urban SHTF/TEOTWAWKI type event in his/her own city?

Nem

 

[mrmeval]

Would really need to ask a combat vet. As a door breaker and in some cases a cover reducer I can see it. There is one that slings under an M16 that is pump.

Just your take on it. Urban combat seems to be gettin closer and closer these days.....

 

[1 old 0311]

At extended range I don't think there are many people that will argue for shotgun use, but at close range- pistol range to 50 yards they are scary.

That was the weapon of choice for walking point.

Kevin

 

[Kenshin]

As guy who owns an 870P for HD/SD, this is an interesting topic.

FTR, I don't plan to go into "combat" with this one. (I don't plan to go into combat at all if I can avoid it.) For me, it's all about stopping a criminal intruder - not a soldier - who comes into my house/studio/camp and fails to stop at a reasonable buffer zone.

Still, I'm curious, Kenshin, what is the nature of the 'urban combat' of which you speak?

Are you talking about soldiers, per se - as in urban Iraq - or about the average citizen caught up in an urban SHTF/TEOTWAWKI type event in his/her own city?

Nem

Both

 

[Thain]

The shotgun is not a bad weapon in an urban fight, imho, but it isn't the best weapon. If one looks to Iraq/Afgahnistan you typically see one (maybe two) guys in a fireteam or a squad with a shotgun, and using it for something other than a entry tool.

Still, the select fire rifle is still the best choice for every single soldier to carry. Better range, better rate of fire, and better agianst body armor.

Now, for the civilian militia or police, a good shotgun is certainly a fine weapon. I think four decently trainned adults with a pair of hunting rifles and a pair of shotguns should be able to handle just about anything that they'd come across in a civil defense roll. Be it securing their block agianst looters and rioters, or a guerilla run 'n gun agianst an invading army.

Still, if I was an infantry rifleman in Iraq, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a shotgun as my main battle rifle... provided I had some buddys with M-16s walking with me. 00 Buckshot can take down a 200lbs deer, or a 190lbs Jihadist just the same.

Basically, I guess it boils down to the old saw about there being no perfect weapon. (Sorry M1911 fans!)

 

[Preacherman]

The shotgun is great for delivering massive blows at close range to unprotected targets. It's not nearly so good if the targets are at longer ranges and/or are wearing body armor. It's also not so good if large quantities of ammo are required, as the weight and bulk per round of shotgun ammo are waaaayy more than for a typical carbine or rifle.

I restrict my fighting shotguns to the home-and-environs defence role. For anything longer-range than that, or where body armor is a possibility, I'd go for a decent carbine. My preference will be for something in the AK line, because I don't like AR's, but I'm sure there are almost as many preferences out there as there are shooters!

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

The shotgun has it's place in war. Any time you're talking about ranges inside of 50 yards, a shotgun is a relatively inexpensive defensive tool.

You got the trench gun in ww1

They forget about it in ww2

In vietnam w/ close ranges in jungle, it came back

Now, in middle eastern cities, the 12 gauge is back

 

[NMshooter]

Actually Preacherman, there may be more preferences than shooters.

I have this picture of THR members with multiple gun bearers, mules, even fully loaded pickup trucks...

"Should I use the .50 Browning or the .338 Lapua for this shot, James?"

While I do not think that a shotgun with slugs is better than a semiauto rifle, it may be a better choice than a bolt or lever gun in an urban area.

 

[AStone]

"Should I use the .50 Browning or the .338 Lapua for this shot, James?"

Hey, that suggests the evolution of caddies for gunners.

"James, I'll take a 9 iron, er, 9mm, for this shot, please."

 

[GEM]

I predict (what do I know):

1. 223 long arms are the wave of long gun future
2. Many departments are buying them. Some even buy the Remington pump 223s to ease the transition for shotguns. If shotguns were on the rise, why was this gun built?
3. Pistol carbines - useless with the wave of body armour loonies. The Rugers are selling cheap. Ads stressed that they would give you better knee shots - haha!
4. Shotguns will be used for breeching rounds, zombie and the new nonlethals - like the Taser stick to you and electrify your butt taser shotgun rounds.
5. Shotguns will stay popular with folks who when they hear a home invasion will march into the line of fire and rack the gun - because that causes all evildoers to flee!

Anyway, I have both and try to shoot and train with both. Damn zombies.

 

[444]

Shotguns are currently being used in warfare.
Shotguns are currently being used in law enforcement.
Shotguns have been used extensively in both venues since the advent of firearms.

But, that wasn't your question.
IMO, I don't think that shotguns are going to play a bigger role in urban combat of the future by either group.
IM uneducated opinion, the shotgun is a pretty specialized weapon. In the right circumstance, it is unequalled. Unfortunately, it isn't common that the soldier or police officer can snap their fingers and have a choice of specialized weapons so they can pick the best one for THIS situation. As a result, they have to arm themselves with a more general purpose weapon. A weapon that will defeat body armor, a weapon that can shoot through at least some cover, a weapon that will provide adequate stopping power, a weapon that can provide a degree of firepower.
In law enforcement especially, the magazine fed, automatic rifle is making HUGE headway and leaving the shotgun behind as a general purpose weapon.
On a local level here, the police had two really dramatic gunfights in the span of just a couple days, one of which claimed the life of an officer. Since that time, local police officers have been buying AR15s as fast as they can find one to buy. One shop I was in has sold over 200 since those shootouts. These same officers are issued shotguns for free, but are buying the rifles on their own.

 

[cgv69]

I see them getting an increasingly small role in the actual practice of killing bad guys. They are becoming greately used in less than lethal applications and for blowing off locks, but organized military and police forces seem to be emphasizing the short rifle for all other serious purposes.

That's exactly the way I see it

 

[hkmp5g17]

Only real significan role I see is blowing off locks and hinges. Even in an urban setting the shotgun has far too short of a reach IMHO.

Anyone else see the the pics of our soldiers using shotguns to gain entry into earthen structures- by blasting holes in the wall? Gives new life to the phrase "dynamic entry!"

Anyone remember what mag this was in?

 

[Dave McCracken]

The term, "Urban Warfare" covers lots of territory. If there's anything we should have learned in the last 50 years, it's that warfare occurs in a multitude of ways, places and forms.

DO shotguns work in short time frame, short range crisis scenarios in target rich environments? Obviously.

Are shotguns the best choice for everyone? Obviously not.

Are short time frame, close range, target rich environment scenarios the only ones we have to worry about?

I see Combat shotguns as more a civilian's or irregular troop weapon than a GI weapon.

Should knowing the shotgun and it's capabilities be part of one's weapons kata? Heck yes!!

 

[BozemanMT]

I predict (what do I know):

1. 223 long arms are the wave of long gun future
2. Many departments are buying them. Some even buy the Remington pump 223s to ease the transition for shotguns. If shotguns were on the rise, why was this gun built?
3. Pistol carbines - useless with the wave of body armour loonies. The Rugers are selling cheap. Ads stressed that they would give you better knee shots - haha!
4. Shotguns will be used for breeching rounds, zombie and the new nonlethals - like the Taser stick to you and electrify your butt taser shotgun rounds.
5. Shotguns will stay popular with folks who when they hear a home invasion will march into the line of fire and rack the gun - because that causes all evildoers to flee!

Anyway, I have both and try to shoot and train with both. Damn zombies.

I think this is an interesting point. This is what is happening. But, is it happening because it's the most effective thing to do, or because people can't shoot anymore?
You have the smaller sized females coming into the military and police that can't and/or won't handle battle rifle sized rounds along with shotguns. Both of which take more effort to learn to properly shoot. You have many people coming in who have never shot at all. (unlike say WWII when many had shot before on their homes/farms/schools). Look at europe where no one shoots anymore and their military is itty bitty.
I think in a well trained unit (which admittadly is smaller and smaller, look at NYPD which mandates the 12lb trigger pull in their duty glocks because it's cheaper than training ) a battle rifle, a shotgun, a battle carbine (.223) all have their places. I don't want to get shot by any of them.

But, i agree, the harder to use weapons are going away. I don't think that means they aren't still effective and I'm not sure that it means that the new replacements are more effective.

BTW, I think teh pump .223 is a stupid idea. What's the point? if you are doing a pump, eliminate the threat and deal with a shotgun. Unless you believe in my theory that no one wants to learn how to use a recoiling pump.

 

[Thain]

From the US Army Fierld Manual on Combined Arms in Urban Combat (FM 3-06.11 Chapter 1)

a. Hard, smooth, flat surfaces are characteristic of urban targets. Rounds rarely impact perpendicular to these flat surfaces, but rather, at an oblique angle. This reduces the effect of a round and increases the threat of ricochets. The tendency of rounds to strike glancing blows against hard surfaces means that up to 25 percent of impact-fused explosive rounds may not detonate when fired into urban areas. Deflected rounds can easily ricochet or "rabbit" causing injury and death from strange angles. (A "rabbit" round is a round or fragment that strikes a surface at such a steep angle that it glances off and continues to travel parallel to that surface.)

b. Engagement ranges are close. Studies and historical analyses have shown that only 5 percent of all targets are more than 100 meters away. About 90 percent of all targets are located 50 meters or less from the identifying soldier. Few personnel targets will be visible beyond 50 meters and they usually occur at 35 meters or less. Engagement times are short. Enemy personnel present only fleeting targets.

c. Depression and elevation limits for some weapons create dead space. Tall buildings form deep canyons that are often safe from indirect fires. Some weapons can fire rounds to ricochet behind cover and inflict casualties. Target engagement from oblique angles, both horizontal and vertical, demands superior marksmanship skills.

d. Smoke from burning buildings, dust from explosions, shadows from tall buildings, and the lack of light penetrating inner rooms all combine to reduce visibility and increase a sense of isolation. Added to this is the masking of fires caused by rubble and manmade structures. Targets, even those at close range, tend to be indistinct.

e. Urban fighting can become confused mêlées with several small units attacking on converging axes. The risks from friendly fires, ricochets, and fratricide must be considered during the planning phase of operations, and control measures must be adjusted to lower these risks. Soldiers and leaders must maintain a sense of situational awareness.

f. The soldier and target may be inside or outside buildings, or they may both be inside the same or separate buildings. The enclosed nature of combat in urban areas means that all the weapon's effects including the muzzle blast and backblast, must be considered as well as the round's impact on the target.

g. Usually the man-made structure must be attacked before enemy personnel inside are attacked. Therefore, the decision to employ specific weapons and demolitions will often be based on their effects against masonry and concrete rather than against enemy personnel.

h. Modern engineering and design improvements mean that most large buildings constructed since World War II are resilient to the blast effects of bomb and artillery attack. Even though modern buildings may burn easily, they often retain their structural integrity and remain standing. Once high-rise buildings burn out, they may still have military utility and are almost impossible to damage further. A large structure can take 24 to 48 hours to burn out and become cool enough for soldiers to enter.

Given the highlighted concerns above, I'd say that a shotgun would indeed be useful... as part of a combined fireteam. One or two guys in twelve could carry a Benelli or a Remington, the rest the standard select fire assault rifles, and of course one guy with a SAW. But to be honest, I'd be warry of using a SAW as a primary weapon when manuvering through a city, once I was "dug in" someplace sure.

 

[Schmitty]

From my cousin who is a Sgt. in a sniper squad in Iraq:

"We have about 10 POS Mossbergs in my platoon, they never get used as a primary weapon."

Take it as a grain of salt.