Will shotguns play a bigger role in urban combat in the future?

[Thain]

Not too second guess the Sergeant, but are they never used because:

A) They are "POS" shotguns, and not reliable?
B) A sniper squad... which would use sniper rifles as primaries?
C) Just piss-poor for the theatre?

I'd wager it is A or B; Also I don't think that a shotgun would be a good general issue all-purpose gun. Selective fire rifles are. But if I had to act in a guerilla/asymetrical action, I wouldn't feel poorly equipped with a good shotgun. And I also think that in an infantry squad during MOUT a shotgun or two would be useful.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Shotguns will ALWAYS play an important role in combat.

When I was in Afghanistan, one of our guys carried an M-16 and a Remington 870.

Why do you think the Marines went to the Benelli M4 Super 90 Auto Shotgun, called the Joint Service Combat Shotgun (JSCS). Because in Close Quarters Battle, a shotgun will clear the room. It's always useful.

And NOT JUST for blowing locks and hinges.

 

[Schmitty]

Not too second guess the Sergeant, but are they never used because:

A) They are "POS" shotguns, and not reliable?

--I bet they're about the same as most in the army. It's tough to have 10 pumpguns in the platoon that are unreliable, but who knows.

B) A sniper squad... which would use sniper rifles as primaries?

--Right, those in his squad wouldn't use a shottie as a primary, I was refering to the rest of the platoon.

C) Just piss-poor for the theatre?

--Could be, he's with the 4th ID south of Baghdad. I'm guessing the combat is urban to sub-urban.

Also his account is obviously not representative of the entire army by any means. I doubt that there will be much expansion of the shotgun's role in today's army however. It would be great for clearing rooms against unarmored targets but it's usfulness is greatly limited by it's exceedingly short range.

Like I said, his account is one soldier in a specialized unit. I'm sure there's plenty of troops who would find a shottie useful in specialized roles but I don't think that will result in it's role being expanded in future urban conflicts.

Also, any body armor that'll stop a 9mm round will stop 00 buck. It will not stop a 5.56. You'd need better stuff for that.

 

[Thain]

No one doubts the utility of a shotgun in room-to-room fighting, but I think they would be just as useful in the streets. During surface to intrasurface fighting (in english, goign from outside to inside) you have short ranges, covered or concealed targets, smoke, and little time to transsion to another weapon once inside. Subsurface (sewers, cellars, etc.) will be tight, confined, and with limited contact distances. Another spot where a shotgun will do fine.

My point is that a shotguns will probably play a bigger role in MOUT in the future, but will never replace the select fire rifle. They will continue to be used as they are now: as a squad level supplemental weapon... at least in the military.

In a civil defense scenario, like the aftermath of a hurricane or an invasion by a forgein state (e.g, Canada gets stick of us beating them in NHL hockey) then shotguns in the hands of the militia in an urban or suburban enviroment would be hell on the badguys.

We can't get assault rifles (meaning select fire, not "assault weapons") easily here in the United States, but shotguns are easy to come by even for folks in States as alien as California and New York. An "American Insurgency" would be armed with deer rifles and shotguns instead of Dragunov's and AK-47's... Still, I think we'd do pretty good for ourselves.

A shotgun is not a main battle rifle, never has been and never will be, but our soldiers are learning to consider the full spectrum of weapons these days. In Iraq and Afghanistan we seem to be returning to the thinking of WWII and really openning up the full tool box, unlike in the Gulf War or the Balkans where we seemed much more inflexible.

As always, the preceding was a paid program, and reflects only the veiws of its author. YMMV. IANAL. IMHO. Not valid in Tennesse.

 

[Fred Fuller]

From my cousin who is a Sgt. in a sniper squad in Iraq:

"We have about 10 POS Mossbergs in my platoon, they never get used as a primary weapon."

Take it as a grain of salt.
======================

Regarding shotguns in general, or Mossbergs in particular? 8^)

Shotguns became useful in modern warfare (modern in my definition being the turn of the last century, when genuine industrial warfare came about) for several reasons. Primary reasons were because of the ease with which shotguns allowed a trained/experienced shotgunner to take out fleeting targets in sudden engagements, the shotgun's ability to deliver devastating blows on soft targets at short range, the speed with which multiple targets could be effectively engaged, and the possibility striking multiple hostile targets with a single round.

Today there is added the versatility of using many more types of ammunition in the same gun for various purposes, from signaling to less lethal to armor piercing and explosive projectiles. The chairborne and the ivory tower set tell us repeatedly that urban conflict is increasingly likely as the new century wears on. The capabilities that originally made the shotgun a useful military weapon in the past still apply now.

lpl/nc

 

[Dave McCracken]

Can anyone think of any shoulder arm that can be used to neutralize a threat faster than a shotgun in trained hands?

Or one better able to deliver a massive amount of energy into a target? Or multiple targets?

 

[AStone]

Can anyone think of any shoulder arm that can be used to neutralize a threat faster than a shotgun in trained hands?

Or one better able to deliver a massive amount of energy into a target? Or multiple targets?

RPG?

Oh, wait. That's on top of the shoulder.

No, never mind. I'll take a shotgun.



Nem

 

[beerslurpy]

If there is some advancement in explosives technology, I could see the grenade launcher being replaced with some sort of 12 gauge system. Take out light vehicles to 200 yards. They are currently working on something like that, but no word on progress.

As a plain projectile weapon, a shotgun combines the range of a handgun with the maneuverability of a rifle. It has medicore stopping power per weight of ammunition. Sure, one round of 12 gauge beats one round of rifle fire at close range, but the rifle ammo weighs 1/10th to 1/4 as much and you can fit 4-5 times more of them in a magazine of the same size.

Due to teh quick powders used in shotgun shells, I could see using a very short barrelled shotgun (like a tromix mini-saiga) in place of a full size pump as a PDW alternative if you arent expecting to encounter armored enemies.

 

[AStone]

Sure, one round of 12 gauge beats one round of rifle fire at close range...

Please, don't ever forget that...
'specially if you come into my space 'after hours',
when everyone else has departed
& thing are 'sleeping' quiet.

Please remove ski masks before entry,
& announce your firearms at the door.

 

[355sigfan]

Only real significan role I see is blowing off locks and hinges. Even in an urban setting the shotgun has far too short of a reach IMHO.
END QUOTE

+1

Shotguns are very limited. I only use my 14 inch vang for putting moose and bears down when the job calls for it. My Colt M4 is what goes with me on gun calls. The shotgun is usefull for breaching, less lethal and for dealing with wildlife. But as a fighting weapon it takes a back seat to the 223 carbine.

There is one exception I like the shotgun loaded with breneke slugs for felony traffic stops. The Breneke slugs rip through vehicles a lot better than the 223.

Pat

 

[AStone]

Only real significan role I see is blowing off locks and hinges. Even in an urban setting the shotgun has far too short of a reach IMHO.

Wth all due respect,
I'm asserting that's wrong.

Wrong.

Spelled W r o n g.

It's a testable hypothesis.

Wrong.



Nem

 

[355sigfan]

For the sake of argument where do you think a shotgun is supperior to a rifle. I asked this question myself and pretty much stopped using the shotgun. At close range the shotgun is very effective. But so is the rifle. Past 25 yards you better have slugs in the gun. Past 50 yards in the average persons hands its hard to hit with. Past 100 yards its hopeless. The 223 carbine is good from 0 to 500 or more yards. The shotgun hits with authority at close range with buck and at longer ranges with slugs. But the .223 with good ammo hits hard as well. The 223 is easier to hit with especially for marginal shooters. The shotgun is harder to manipulate. (meaning you have to know how to combat load, ejection port load, select slug drill ext.) with the rifle its fairly simple. One type of ammo.
Pat

 

[AStone]

For the sake of argument where do you think a shotgun is supperior to a rifle.

No where is it 'superior'.

A shotgun is only what I'm most comfortable with at a range at which I wish to stop an intruder.

If I want to procure protein in the form of whitetail, mule deer, sheep, goat, or even elk, i'll take 7mm08.

But if I want to take down an intuder at 3:23 AM, give me 12 ga or give me death.

Nem

 

[kahr404life]

Expanding the role of shotguns

Fed. Has a new buckshot round called true flight. The 00 buck will stay in the torso of a B-29 target out to 40 yards . At 15 yards your closed fist can cover the impact area. They also have a new slug called true ball. It was designed for smooth bores (Riot Guns) and also displayes great accuracy out to 130 yards. History has shown that if there is a market someone will make the product . I'm waiting for a 00 buck round that will stay on the torso out to 100 yards (that would be the urban a$$ kicker ).

 

[355sigfan]

Riot Guns) and also displayes great accuracy out to 130 yards. History has shown that if there is a market someone will make the product . I'm waiting for a 00 buck round that will stay on the torso out to 100 yards (that would be the urban a$$ kicker ).
END QUOTE

Its funny in the search to make the shot gun have more range and perform like a rifle. Wouldn't it be easier to just use a rifle. even if you can get great accuracy to 130 yards. A good rifle smokes that.
Pat

 

[Schmitty]

Don't forget that a shotgun blast will decleat anyone hit by it and launch them through doors/windows etc.

Also, you can clear out an entire room with a single round.

People hit by shotguns are cut in half most of the time.



No but seriously, a shotgun has a role in urban combat. It's just limited and will not be expanding in the future IMHO.

 

[Sulaco]

I am not in the military or law enforcement. I have never used a gun in anger (well one time, but it doesn't count) and I probably don't know what I am talking about but I think the shotgun will always have a place in warfare and even moreso in urban warfare. If a weapon like a shotgun is in use as a lock/hinge buster, you can almost bet that somebody is gonna put buckshot in it and shoot people with it. It would just be too tempting not too, right? Guys?

 

[Jeff White]

Currently being used as breeching tools and with birdshot and less lethal in crowd control situations. In fact according to my son who's an Infantry SGT in the 4th ID and in Iraq now, buckshot is hard to come by.

Jeff

 

[JShirley]

I'd take an M4 over a shotgun for all but a handful of rarified circumstances, any day of the week.

Even at 7 meters. Maybe especially at 7 meters. I can address multiple targets with alacrity with an M4 in tight. Time longer between targets with the shotgun.

John

 

[justsurvivingincalifornia]

Hey eveyone I found this on answer.com
http://www.answers.com/topic/xm26-lss

The XM-26 Lightweight Shotgun System has been in development at the US Army's Soldier Battle Lab since late 1990s. These shotguns are manufactured by the C-More Systems company. The idea was to provide soldiers with lightweight accessory weapon, which could be mounted under the standard issue infantry rifle (M16A2 or M4A1 carbine), and provide soldiers with additional capabilities, such as: door breaching using special slugs; very short-range increased lethality, using 00 buckshot; less-lethal capabilities using tear gas shells, rubber slugs and buckshot, and other less-lethal rounds. The original idea has been based on the Masterkey system, dated back to 1980s, which originally included the shortened Remington 870 shotgun mounted under the M16 rifle or carbine. The XM-26 improved the original Masterkey concept with the detachable magazine option and more comfortable handling, thanks to bolt-operated system. Detachable magazine offers quicker reloading and more rapid ammunition type change; the relatively large bolt handle is located closer to the rear, than the slide on the pump-action shotgun in the Masterkey configuration, and thus is more comfortable to cycle in combat. Bolt handle could be mounted on either side of the weapon. At the present time small numbers of XM26 LSS shotguns are issued to US troops in Afghanistan, and, according to available sources, these weapons are well received by troops who used them. It is believed that XM-26 will be compatible with the next US assault rifle, the XM8.

techical problems :sorry I can't load the pictures but look at the site

 

[Jeff White]

Well, I think your info is a little old. The XM8 is dead and has been for months. Contrary to what the manufacturer says, actual troop acceptance of the XM26 has been less then positive.

Jeff

 

[kmrcstintn]

...

...
Civilian law enforcement appears to be split on this issue. This is just a quick take on the original point brought up.

1) With civil liability on the rise, LEO's are made to account for every projectile that is discharged from the weapon. In a shotgun that is loaded with buckshot, this means 8-34 individual projectiles per shot to account for. With a .223 or 5.56mm rifle in pump, semiauto, or burst this means 1-3 projectiles per shot to account for. (Less spread, more precise aiming)

2) Not all LEO's can handle the recoil of a shotgun and find that a carbine is easier to control. This might be another factor as to the use of shotgun vs. rifle/carbine in the future. (More controllability to reduce accidental/incidental collateral damage)

3) The shotgun and the rifle/carbine will both play a role in future urban combat, but each jurisdiction/department must define the parameters of their use. (Civil liability vs. effectiveness in neutralizing threat)

addendum:

A) I forgot about lockbusting with frangible loads, I was focusing on "antiperpetrator" roles

B) I was focusing on civilian "urban combat" (aka: police use) and not military use

based on the addendum...
I really don't know how to address the bigger debate of civilian LEO "urban combat" vs military campaign "urban combat"
(aka: there are alot of facets to consider when forming an opinion and I only discussed one possibility)

 

['Card]

The problem with shotguns in a military context is that they just aren't flexible enough.

A grunt wants to be prepared for anything.
A grunt doesn't want to carry more weight than he has to. Given the option of carrying a second weapon or more ammo, generally he'll choose to carry more ammo.
A grunt hates to think about being outgunned, but he hates the idea of being outranged just as much.

The point being that the vast majority of the time, if you ask your average grunt if he'd prefer to carry a rifle or a shotgun, he'll choose the rifle. Sure, the shotgun probably points quicker and hits harder up close, but if he finds himself getting tagged from way downrange, he's screwed. The rifle is a long way from perfect, but it gives you more options, because it's effective from 'in your grill' distance, to way the hell over there somewhere.

Having said that, I can only speak from personal experience as an infantry rifleman. More and more of the Army's role seems to be sliding towards MP-type duties now though, and there may be a larger role for the shotgun in that context.

 

[Domino]

I'm suprised that no one brought up the Auto Assault 12 shotgun.

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_AA12,,00.html

A weapon like this would be great at CQB and with the use of Frag-12 ammunition, it could be used like a full-auto shoulderfired grenade launcher. Sounds cool to me.

 

[mrmeval]

When the auto assault gets rid of the thing sticking down that you have to shove the magazine on to load it I'll consider it. It's a failure point and a bad one.