Will We Sit at the Table?

[M-Cameron]

Doubt it? Ask an Australian or a Brit or a New Zealander. Ask a German.

People who are willing to compromise are the only shot at life the 2nd Amendment has

.

those are the people who compromised....first they came for the 'large capacity' guns....and they compromised and gave them over.

Then they came for the handguns.....and they compromised and they gave them over.

Then they came for the other guns.....and they compromised and they gave them over.

now they are stuck with low powered air rifles......if they are lucky.

 

[Sam1911]

Do you believe that a majority of these women think the current situation is completely satisfactory? Do you think the status quo is just fine?

Just fine? Some do, some don't. That's a long shot from 99% of them being willing to restrict everyone's rights over this issue.

Come on Sam you're a sharp cookie look past the idealistic rhetoric and look at the BIG picture. Your and my views ARE NOT the only rational ones. Just cause they are for us doesn't mean it is for everyone

If we can dissect with logic the causes and effects of actions and laws, we can determine some things to be true and causal, and some not. I'm not saying they aren't entitled to their OPINIONS. Only that 2+2=/=5, even if someone really wishes it would because then they could feel better and stop worrying.

 

[slim76]

Rocketmedic: So, it's basically strike now while the iron is hot. CRISIS MODE.
I think I'll wait a month. There is no crisis. Anyway, We the People will decide the fate of the 2nd Amendment, not the media and not the senate. We're the ones with the guns.
No compromise, but tell Sarah Brady hi for me.

 

[Sam1911]

Mark my words. Without compromise, we will be irrelevant. We will lose concealed and open-carry, we will lose high-capacity magazines, we will lose "assault weapons". We will probably lose semi-automatic fire and detachable magazines. We may lose handguns and rifles.

I thought those were all the things you were willing to give up anyway? In your world view, compromise seems rather irrelevant!

Doubt it? Ask an Australian or a Brit or a New Zealander. Ask a German.

Ironically, the Aussies who've been logging in over the weekend have been saying something quite different from what you're claiming. Wonder why?

 

[Apachedriver]

And the reaction will be the same- will those of us who trot out the 1994 talking points be able to stand before the bodies of those kids and point out how more guns in an elementary school could have helped? Will you even get the chance to open your mouths before you are booed out of the debate?

Put this in your brain and have a liberal anti-gunner meltdown why don't ya?

Has anyone seen this. Unlikely that such as the CT. tragedy would ever happen here.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/14/4486104/texas-school-where-teachers-carry.html

Texas school where teachers carry guns prepared to protect students
Posted Friday, Dec. 14, 2012

BY BILL MILLER
[email protected]

Texas Gov. Rick Perry urged school districts to review their plans to ensure they are prepared to respond to incidents such as the horrific shooting at a Connecticut elementary school Friday.

David Thweatt, superintendent of the tiny Harrold school district in northwest Texas, believes his staff is ready.

Besides special locks and security cameras, an undisclosed number of staff members and teachers carry concealed handguns.

Thweatt said the "guardian plan," which drew international attention when it was implemented in 2008, definitely enhances student safety.

"Is that 100 percent? No," Thweatt said Friday in a telephone interview. "Nothing is 100 percent. But what we do know is that we've done all we can to protect our children."

At the time the plan was put in place, Harrold, about 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, was the only known public school district in Texas and the U.S. that allowed staff members and teachers to carry concealed weapons. Thweat said he knows of some other districts that have since adopted similar policies, but declined to name them.

Harrold school officials do not announce which teachers are "packing" and those participating must have proper concealed carry licenses. They must also be approved by the school board to carry on school grounds.

Board members approved the measure because the district is at least 20 minutes from the nearest station of the Wilbarger County Sheriff's Department.

The district has one school, with about 110 students and 15 teachers, according to the Texas Education Agency.

"We have one entry to the school," Thweatt said, adding that special locks can be activated from his office. "We also have the cameras, but we didn't have anything to deal with an active shooter."

The guardian plan was researched for more than a year before the school board considered it. Some board members didn't like it.

"My board at first didn't want to be the poster child for this," he said.

But Thweatt said he wanted to minimize casualties that could quickly increase while waiting for deputies. He didn't want a plan where you "lock yourself in your closet and hope that an intruder won't hurt you. So what we came up with was a policy that would protect."

Still, the strategy draws criticism from people who "don't believe guns, kids and schools mix," Thweatt said.

There has not been an incident on his campus, and Thweatt doesn't expect one.

He said his heart was heavy after learning of Friday's shooting in Connecticut, in which 20 elementary school students were killed by a 20-year-old gunman.

"It's just tearing me up," he said. "...I have children of my own. I can't stand to think of my little guys just getting slaughtered like that. My heart just bleeds for these people."

 

[R.W.Dale]

Just fine? Some do, some don't. That's a long shot from 99% of them being willing to restrict everyone's rights over this issue.

If we can dissect with logic the causes and effects of actions and laws, we can determine some things to be true and causal, and some not. I'm not saying they aren't entitled to their OPINIONS. Only that 2+2=/=5, even if someone really wishes it would because then they could feel better and stop worrying.

Lets take your reasoning to the absolute extreme.

Yes or no

1. Could mass shootings in schools take place IF there were no guns?

2. Would the death toll be lower if the type of firearms used in these shootings weren't avalible?




Does this sound dumb and simple minded? Yes probably, but its exactly how the fence sitters whom will decide this view the question. What we have to do us understand the level to wich this debate will and must be dumbed down.

Arguments with me using the near religious NRA holy Scriptures about "the truth" will only alienate these people. We need to be able to have SOMETHING to offer these people that we can convince enough of.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

 

[crazyjennyblack]

"shall we gather at the table... the beautiful the beautiful table.... shall we gather at the table...."


Ugh. The trouble is, we are trying to think about a rational discussion with people who quite often are NOT RATIONAL. For many, this is an emotional issue, and you cannot always rationalize with emotional people. I hear this complaint, often about women, from married friends of mine. The husband comes home with a good idea and the wife pitches a fit based on some emotional hangup. Or vice versa. At no time are emotions running higher than after shootings like we just saw in Connecticut.

Have you ever stopped to notice that Brady and McCarthy suffered emotional damage due to shootings? Not that this makes their arguments right or logical, but its a reaction and their causes are quite emotional for them.

We, the firearms-friendly community often stand on the logical side of the argument. On the other side we have a whole host of everyone's fears, doubts, distrusts, and bad experiences. I'm not sure we can come up with an argument logical enough to heal all the hurt out in the world. Perhaps we can find some other way to reach out? Finding that missing "something" would be a worthwhile goal, and one that I'm afraid I don't have the wisdom to do on my own.

 

[Warp]

Lets take your reasoning to the absolute extreme.

Yes or no

1. Could mass shootings in schools take place IF there were no guns?

2. Would the death toll be lower if the type of firearms used in these shootings weren't avalible?




Does this sound dumb and simple minded? Yes probably, but its exactly how the fence sitters whom will decide this view the question. What we have to do us understand the level towuch this debate will and must be dumbed down.

Arguments with me using the near religious NRA holy Scriptures about "the truth" will only alienate these people




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

1. If no guns existed on this planet then no, there could be no shootings with guns.

2. Explain with specifics. If semi auto handguns did not exist?

 

[mgmorden]

"Compromise" is a tool by which one side tries to convince the other that slow encroachment on their position - bit by bit, until you lose all your ground, is somehow "rational".

We "compromised" in 1934 when we allowed fully-automatic weapons to be taken. We "compromised" in 1968 with background checks. We "compromised" in 1986 with further restrictions on full auto. We "compromised" again in 1994 when they took evil black rifles and high-cap mags (a compromise that thankfully, was temporary).

Is it not clear that "compromise" isn't working. Trying to compromise with anti-gunners is pointless. Its giving up ground a piece at a time to an opposing faction. It makes as much since as trying to win a military battle by constantly giving up ground and claiming that its the only thing that makes sense.

Frankly, if they want to compromise, I'm all for it. Give back some of the things that have already been taken. Not interested? Really? Not even if I say its "common sense" or imply that its absolutely inevitable? Didn't think so.

 

[slim76]

What debate, there will be no debate. Debate indicates logic and reason. There will just be a lot of feelings expressed by people who don't think other people should be able to own a certain piece of property.
What about the Bath School bombing in Michigan. 38 dead...by explosives.
Banning guns won't stop mass murder by mass murderers who want to commit and dream and fantasize about how they can accomplish mass murder.
How many kids were killed on the interstate this year? Hmmm. Is it any more tragic or is it less tragic because we ALL like to drive cars.
Where are the calls for mandatory public transportation for everyone and a ban on private vehicles.
Autos aren't even protected by an amendment to the Constitution.

 

[Sam1911]

We need to be able to have SOMETHING to offer these people that we can convince enough of.

I've made a series of proposals, including training teachers to actually resist and protect their students. That's a proactive plan.

 

[Lost Sheep]

what are "we" ok with banning?

Nothing.
Let's not talk about banning inanimate objects. Make the debate about the people who mis-use them.

That, or be prepared to discuss arming all our teachers and shopkeepers, etc and then be prepared to discuss gunning down a 20-year old mentally ill person in front of a school full of children.

We have to be pro-active.

Lost Sheep

 

[2ifbyC]

After listening to the POTUS speak this evening, I believe he will pull out all stops, as he did with Obamacare, to win his overall objective of government control. He appealed to both the faithful as well as the obligation of parents to look out for the safety of other people’s children. He vows for action although he knows there is no solution for evil. However, “something” must be done. We must wait to find out what that “something” is but my sense is it will not be good for law-abiding gun owners.

The responses in this thread have been all over the map; this is to be expected due to the nature of the tragedy. None of the opinions expressed have been malicious; they are symptomatic of people trying to determine what that “something” is to prevent future evil actions from occurring again.

Let the venting process follow its natural progression. Be prepared to voice your position in a rational, factual manner when the time comes. And unlike Sam, I believe the time will come and soon.

 

[Balrog]

I think gun owners are going to be willing to compromise this time. Its hard to speak out against the present regime without the threads being closed.

 

[Apachedriver]

Sam1911 - Looks like some people think like you out there. (RE: Updated post # 369)

 

[brocktice]

Oh man biometric interlocks? HAHAHAHA that right there is a dead giveaway that you have not thought about this AT ALL. I heard some idiot senator or congressperson had the same idea. Please, just take ten seconds to think about it and then you can tell me at least one reason. I hope.

 

[RX-178]

Another proposal, which will be unpopular, but true.

Acceptance.

Not of gun bans, but acceptance of the fact that when we pass down to our children the freedom to pursue happiness, to find what makes their life full, and fill their soul with joy. To tell them that anything in this world is possible for them, and that they can become whoever, and whatever they want to.

When we do this, we also risk that one day, someone may ABUSE these same freedoms, and take our children away like the shooter in Newtown did.

I, for one WILL risk this, to pass these freedoms on to my children.

 

[hso]

What is on the table to negotiate?

Banning firearms that have been used to kill less than the statistical fluctuation in the population of this country? While tragic, the death toll from mass murders each year is less than the number of children that drown in swimming pools each year.

Banning magazines for the same?

Banning ownership to those with mental health problems whether they're a threat or not? Banning ownership by their resident family members who have no mental health problems?

We're jumping to think of something to "do" in the heat of the moment when what needs to happen is to put some time and distance between the nation and this tragedy so sober reflection, careful analysis, and thoughtful decisions can be made before requirements be written into law that affect every adult in this country.

 

[krupparms]

To many citizens died to keep our country free! Would you marginalize their sacrifice? Not me! Guns are not the problem! It's people that want to ban things that are the problem! If you don't want your guns send them to us, we will put them to good use!

 

[Balrog]

We're jumping to think of something to "do" in the heat of the moment when what needs to happen is to put some time and distance between the nation and this tragedy so sober reflection, careful analysis, and thoughtful decisions can be made before requirements be written into law that affect every adult in this country.

These are wise, but tragically naive, words. As they say, "Never let a crisis go to waste". That is the strategy of the present regime. To think otherwise is foolish and/or outright ignorant.

 

[LiveLife]

hso posted some good links on post #65 of this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8572886#post8572886

The attacks in public places is not new and certainly not limited to this country. Our society should recognize that these attacks will continue due to various reasons and often are not preventable. Even if underlying mental health issues of our society were addressed, it will take time and will not be 100% in preventing public attacks. For me, our focus should be more on protecting and defending the victims short-term and addressing the mental health issues long-term.

What will we do if another shooting incident took place in another school of our town/city tomorrow? Talk of addressing mental health issues or gun control issues will not protect the lives of victims next week. If you are the teacher responsible for the students, what security options would you have to protect their lives? I think this should be the "meaningful" discussion that should take place now.

 

[krupparms]

bds :You hit that nail right on the head!

 

[R.W.Dale]

There will be several facets to the impending discussions in Washington.

The response side with training and possibly arming certain school faculty members is a good proposal.

The prevention side of the mental health system shortcomings is another (I do want to point out we don't know yet if this guy suffered as such)

I think we need to take a hard serious look at the medications that ALWAYS seem to go hand and hand in this.

But none of these propositions address the equipment used to commit this heinous act, and such a discussion WILL take place! This is where we offer OUR solutions as gun owners lest we have the solutions dictated to us as a result of our idealisticly fueled non participation




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

 

[yokel]

“Because what choice do we have? We can’t accept events like this as routine. Are we really prepared to say that we’re powerless in the face of such carnage? That the politics are too hard? Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year after year is somehow the price of our freedom?”

The President's chilling remarks at a memorial service on Sunday.

What actions do you suppose he is preparing?

This is all disturbingly reminiscent of some tin-horn totalitarian dictator and self-seeking opportunist. Such historical individuals are indeed opportunistic, seizing power over a society during times of tragedy and raw emotions.

 

[Rocketmedic]

No, Yokel, those are the words of a man who has simply had to speak at too many massacres enabled by lax firearms laws and a nonexistent mental-health system.

For those of you who decry compromise and my proposal, you should probably read it. I am a supporter of universal, Constitutionally-protected CCW and private gun ownership. I simply realize that defending the right to firearms at all means that we will have to compromise on some things. I would rather compromise on your high-capacity magazines and assault rifles than I would on everyone's guns period.