Will We Sit at the Table?

[gym]

As I said before they are going to do somethng. It would make sense that that from their perspective reinstating the assault weapons ban didn't really accomplish anything. I think that some sort of mental health screening is what they may do, along with 10 round limits on mags. Perhaps no more 30 round mags will be sold, and some sort of attachment to the lower will be necessary in order to shoot these ar and ak rifles in public areas, like ranges or hunting.
But that won't stop the crazy's from shooting up malls and schools. I don't think any of this will work honestlly, it never has,and since this was a pistol incident, having 10,10 round mags would have accomplished the same end, "but they don't think like that". banning all asault weapons will do nothing, as no one is going to turn them in as we all know.
If they make them all illegal to own, that would be unenforcable.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Sit at the table and tell them they are barking up the wrong tree.

Sit at the table and tell them there is already too much gun control and they are already trampling on the 2nd amendment.

Sit at the table and suggest if they are so scared of an armed populace, they are free to move to UK, Canada or Australia instead of trampling on the rights of those of us who are not irrationally scared.

Sit at the table and remind them of the cost in lives and money which the prohibition of alcohol brought.

Sit at the table and tell them...NO, WE WILL NOT SIT IDLY BY AND ALLOW YOU TO TRAMPLE OUR RIGHTS.

Sit at the table and tell them "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Bans-No
Registration - No
Additional limitations or restrictions. - No

So what should be done? Well schools shouldn't be as open as the local mall. They need controlled access and security. Our mental health structure in this nation needs to be fixed. Reliance on the County jail for treatment of the mentally ill providing they survive their encounter with the local police is stupid.

Concealed Carry must be legal at least for some Teachers and other employees unless you assign Police Officers to every school.

Another thing is to quit being so disrespectful to each other. Learn to talk out problems instead of resorting to violence.

 

[HoosierQ]

I am very serious about this, so let's pretend we are at the table. This is directed at the OP.



Are there items you would be willing to put on the list?



Please tell me where guns can, should, and do fit? I am being serious. Speak now. We are at the simulated table.



How do you define defeat? And with that definition naturally follows how do you define success/winning?

This is directed to the OP. Here we are at the virtual table. Let's play this one through.

Items I'd be willing to put on the list? None (so a super short list...just a heading).
Where to guns fit in? Guns are a integral part of American life and have been since essentially Jamestown. American IS different that the other industrialized nations. WE ARE different. So comparing us to them is invalid. Everyday, we pay one consequence or another for the level of freedom we have in this country. Some gun violence, for good and evil, is going to happen.
How do I define defeat? We loose our ability to own firearms period. We loose our ability to own a semi-automatic firearm. We loose our ability to own a handgun. We loose our ability to purchase ammunition.

What I am saying is that we who are so passionate about RKBA need to insert ourselves in the discussion of what to do about this mess...if indeed that discussion takes place. Some have said it'll die down...it might...then my post is moot. Somebody had got to be there to voice a clear and intelligent picture of what the 2nd Amendment means to the USA. Where every day people defend themselves with a firearm. Where every day somebody is putting a meal on the table. Where every day, somebody is stopping a predator from destroying his livlihood (rats, coyotes, feral hogs). Where every day somebody puts money in the bank (like the guys on Swamp People)...those guys aren't rich...they need that money. We're not England...we don't want to be. We're not Japan...we don't want to be. We're not France...we don't want to be. We're not Somalia either...we don't want to be. We're not Yemen...we don't want to be. We are us. We are the United States of American and, yes by God, some things are different here than in the other industrialized "first world" nations. We don't want to be like them. We're not willing to be like them. The darned rules are different here and we want them that way.

Somebody has got to sit at this table and speak to that. If, after all the dust settles, and change cannot be avoided, then we need to be at that table to participate in that I think. If we cannot stop gun control...and I think we can...but if we can't, we need to be there.

 

[sansone]

new story on the AP-wire hours ago states:
USA over the tipping point regarding gun control not good reading at all

 

[Sam1911]

This is an interesting question from several angles. I think I'll lay aside the "what will we compromise?" question as there's nothing we'd willingly compromise.

Instead I'd rather tackle the question of who will go to the table, so to speak, and be the voice of gun owners in the negotiations over what laws might be proposed or executive orders (the boogeyman that most don't seem to actually understand) might be handed down.

I see Ted Nugent mentioned and Wayne LaPierre, both in negative lights. That's probably unnecessary. Ted Nugent, for all his bluster and bluff and troubles and hilarity and absurdity, ISN'T going to be within 20 miles of the actual political negotiations -- if any ever do happen. Wayne MAY be, but remember that the NRA and (more importantly) NRA-ILA are very complex organizations -- and effective ones on the world stage. They are not unsophisticated. The overheated backwoods, vaguely militant, down-home rural "hound dogs, pick-em-up trucks, NASCAR and apple pie -- from my cold dead hands" posturing is all a (good-hearted and benevolent) act to help the faithful back home feel in-touch with the political machine in Washington. I've known on a first-name basis one of the folks you see in the magazines each month, and discussed with him regularly how they do what they do, for real. They are extremely professional, extremely well-funded and well-connected, and know their business. While the existence of multi-million dollar lobbying organizations might be extremely distasteful, the fact remains that they exist. And since they exist, we might as well have the best one in the world on our side.

So the Wayne LaPierre of the "Jack Booted Thugs" comment isn't the guy who's meeting in the smoke-filled rooms with Senators and Representatives -- and really maneuvering against the Sugarmans and Rebecca Peterses on the other side of the argument. Political theater is just the part we see from the outside of the beltway, and it is designed to get the membership writing and calling their Congressvermin so that when Wayne & Co. sit down in the Reps' offices they can say, "We represent all those constituents you heard from this week and they support..."

Perhaps the biggest point to remember is this: THIS ISN'T ABOUT A LOGICAL DEBATE. If such negotiations do materialize, it won't matter who's points make the most sense, or whether any change in any policy or law will actually make any person one iota safer -- or free-er. All that will matter is who can convince those who make the laws that they are expressing the will of the most people -- or more exactly, winning themselves the most votes next time.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Wayne MAY be, but remember that the NRA and (more importantly) NRA-ILA are very complex organizations -- and effective ones on the world stage. They are not unsophisticated. While the existence of multi-million dollar lobbying organizations might be extremely distasteful, the fact remains that they exist. And since they exist, we might as well have the best one in the world on our side.

So the Wayne LaPierre of the "Jack Booted Thugs" comment isn't the guy who's meeting in the smoke-filled rooms with Senators and Representatives --

That is how the ignorant antis see the NRA though. They see it as some sort of Sith Empire from Star Wars. They think of it is a singular organization, and don't at all seem to understand that it has hundreds fo thousands of members donating millions of dollars.

They don't seem to understand that the NRA is so influential, because it has the will of millions of people behind it.

Perhaps the biggest point to remember is this: THIS ISN'T ABOUT A LOGICAL DEBATE. If such negotiations do materialize, it won't matter who's points make the most sense, or whether any change in any policy or law will actually make any person one iota safer -- or free-er. All that will matter is who can convince those who make the laws that they are expressing the will of the most people -- or more exactly, winning themselves the most votes next time.

The fact that it isn't a logical debate is the very reason that some of the "militant, from my cold dead hands" posturing should not be completely and utterly ignored.

We have to remember we are fighting for our rights here. As much as the antis already want to think the gun owners of this country are crazy, we can't be afraid to let them know these our our RIGHTS and we are not willing to part with them just by the swipe of a pen in the Oval Office.

 

[lobo9er]

......

 

[Ashcons]

I have some suggestions for this round table:

Take a look at WHERE these mass murders happen, who perpetrates them, and what our reaction is. Ask why they happen where they happen, why they happen, and what our reaction does to encourage this behavior.

It seems like all these large-scale murders happen at schools, malls, or at the workplace. These public places have many things in common including a number of victims basically trapped in the event of a MWAG shooting, frequently some sort of connection with the perpetrator, but most importantly, frequently they are gun free zones. There isn't much you can do about the first two commonalities, but the third one seems like there could be discussion for realistic, positive change; this may involve tort law reform, though. It doesn't seem like the where is something that can be changed much. People still need to work, people still enjoy (though I have no idea why) going to the mall, and kids are going to attend public school because it's our cultural norm and current economic norm with 2 working parents almost being a requirement for a family to get by.

Who's perpetrating these crimes? Mostly teenage to middle-aged boys. What's the cause? I don't know. I feel like our culture needs fixing, but it won't happen. Violence is glorified, guns are turned into totems of power by politicians and the MSM, and boys are frequently not growing into men because they didn't have a role model around to show them how. Maybe it's the result of broken families. Maybe it's time to build community by taking interest in boys who aren't your own and don't have a man to look up to.

Finally, I believe that 'our' response is a driver behind similar acts of violence. The MSM and politicians just eat these events up. 24/7, these perpetrators live in infamy for weeks at a time. They know they'll be talked about, wondered about, on public consciousness long after their life has ended. The correction to this would be a re-building of the 4th estate to something that again has some semblance of self-respect and values truth and the dignity of its duty to report facts without bias. I have no idea how to even tackle the 4th estate problem.

Well, that's what I bring to the table. Sorry for the jumbled thoughts; it's hard to write a respectable essay without research and in this tiny reply window.

 

[Water-Man]

I agree we should be 'at the table' but not for the purpose of capitulating our rights.

 

[HoosierQ]

Thank you Sam1911. I agree with your entire post but that lest paragraph is what I am talking about...what I was trying to get across. The PEOPLE of the USA are different and they have different values than "all the other industrialized nations"...that we hear so much comparison to. Bloomberg doesn't count...he's a billionaire Wall Street fat-cat with an army of private body guards...no, he's not worried about his safety on the streets...in his bomb proof limo.

It is regular people who want to exercise the RKBA. Their values...hell, their taxes...is what runs this country. We've got the 1%. We've got the 99%. We've got the 47%. All horse hockey. What is really out there is the probably 75% of people in America who pay almost all the taxes that the country runs on, do all the work that keep the place going, and an overwhelming majority of those people want to exercie the RKBA and not see that infringed. If the NRA has people that can get that across without sounding like nuts, let it be them...in fact I'm glad you've straightened me out there. Of course they have professional people.

So we sit at the table and we let them know that maybe what's reasonable in America is different that the rest of the world. I think it is, I hope it is, I want it to be. Like I said, America is different and Americans want it that way. I'm sure the Danish are happy with Denmark and more power to them...but Denmark is not the USA.

 

[krupparms]

We have no choice but to sit at the table! But we must bring reason &sense along. We must put forward sensible suggestions to counter the one's we know will not work.

 

[Sky]

We should give up gun free zones
All the hype and facts about being at war with "you name it".
TSA, NDAA, etc etc drug war @ $500 a second spending, billions a year (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...kDEA8rCe7IoDPH77A&sig2=29wm54yYDMfvFo1CbN4d7w)
O.K. if we are at war then act like it and do away with the big target placed on gun free zones. Simple, does not cost anything other than some ink, paper, and time for people to move their target signs. My 2 cents it won't happen, to simple, no autocracy with watchdogs and funding.

 

[fdashes]

If only there were a "gun free" zone sign on that school. The shooter would have read that and would have gone home.

 

[sirgilligan]

Items I'd be willing to put on the list? None (so a super short list...just a heading).
Where to guns fit in? Guns are a integral part of American life and have been since essentially Jamestown. American IS different that the other industrialized nations. WE ARE different. So comparing us to them is invalid. Everyday, we pay one consequence or another for the level of freedom we have in this country. Some gun violence, for good and evil, is going to happen.
How do I define defeat? We loose our ability to own firearms period. We loose our ability to own a semi-automatic firearm. We loose our ability to own a handgun. We loose our ability to purchase ammunition.

What I am saying is that we who are so passionate about RKBA need to insert ourselves in the discussion of what to do about this mess...if indeed that discussion takes place. Some have said it'll die down...it might...then my post is moot. Somebody had got to be there to voice a clear and intelligent picture of what the 2nd Amendment means to the USA. Where every day people defend themselves with a firearm. Where every day somebody is putting a meal on the table. Where every day, somebody is stopping a predator from destroying his livlihood (rats, coyotes, feral hogs). Where every day somebody puts money in the bank (like the guys on Swamp People)...those guys aren't rich...they need that money. We're not England...we don't want to be. We're not Japan...we don't want to be. We're not France...we don't want to be. We're not Somalia either...we don't want to be. We're not Yemen...we don't want to be. We are us. We are the United States of American and, yes by God, some things are different here than in the other industrialized "first world" nations. We don't want to be like them. We're not willing to be like them. The darned rules are different here and we want them that way.

Somebody has got to sit at this table and speak to that. If, after all the dust settles, and change cannot be avoided, then we need to be at that table to participate in that I think. If we cannot stop gun control...and I think we can...but if we can't, we need to be there.

I believe you and am on board. However, saying we are different, this nation is different, our rules are different, may not stop the "hope and change" from happening.

You are correct, we need to be involved. Thank you for your reply. I am not willing to play the devils advocate and attack your position. Maybe there is a member of the forum that truly believes that we should be like the UK and is willing to come to the table.

 

[Fremmer]

Sam, the people demanding more gun control have a specific goal of limiting a law abiding citizens ability to keep and bear arms. They don't care about history, tradition, or the constitution. They just want to ban guns. And when you start trying to explain things or provide reasons or a perspective, you will just end up with a bunch of emotional reasons why you don't "need" a certain kind of gun or a certain capacity mag.

Just say NO. No bargains, no deals, no exceptions.

 

[we are not amused]

what are "we" ok with banning?

My question exactlty!

And what the !@## is wrong with sending Ted Nugent and Wayne LaPierre?

And why are they being portrayed in a negative light? Wayne LaPierre works for me in his position at the NRA. Ted Nugent is simply a better known advocate of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms than I am, I agree with him completely.

If we don't send people like them to the discussion, we have already lost.

We need people like Tom Gresham, Larry Pratt, the late Aaron Zelman and other advocates of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. If we send compromisers and people who lack conviction, then we have lost already.

 

[Prince Yamato]

We already sat at the table and talked about guns... In 1776. We said no to restrictions.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam, the people demanding more gun control have a specific goal of limiting a law abiding citizens ability to keep and bear arms.

The people at the deepest heart of that movement, yes. But there really aren't very many of them in this country. A few, and a few very wealthy ones, sure, but the majority of people who support "gun control" are just folks who don't know that much about guns (or about statistics or the realities of violence) but who are scared of the really bad things that happen occasionally. They just want someone in "authority" to tell them "we've got a plan and you're going to be ok." As long as the plan sounds effective, they're quite happy and relieved to let someone handle things so they can go back to not worrying about it.

They don't care about history, tradition, or the constitution.

Again, that's about 90% of the population. The number of "average" US citizens who know almost any history, know anything true and substantive about the Constitution -- or who care a whit about anyone else's "traditions" is minuscule. Railing about that reality isn't probably very productive. There are lots of reasons people should know history and understand law and the Constitution. But they don't, and they won't. So, we have to win the battle by winning the hearts and minds of folks in the here-and-now. That mostly means getting people individually involved/invested in guns and shooting so that fewer folks are willing to lose something personal and real to them in the next gun control bill.

They just want to ban guns. And when you start trying to explain things or provide reasons or a perspective, you will just end up with a bunch of emotional reasons why you don't "need" a certain kind of gun or a certain capacity mag.

Just say NO. No bargains, no deals, no exceptions.

 

[22-rimfire]

First, I will say that no law would have stopped the Sandy Hook Elementary shootings. I suspect the gun control debate will surface next year. I am not sure that proposed laws will even get debated by Congress beyond the committee level. There will likely to be heated discussions and it is not a one-party issue of solidarity.

The President said that we will have to put aside politics. That has really worked with the "fiscal cliff" discussions.

I am not willing to concede any further gun control issue at this point. I believe that eventually the American people will come to their senses and realize that the answer is not a new law unless that law allows for adult prosecution for certain crimes regardless of their age.

 

[MachIVshooter]

We already sat at the table and talked about guns... In 1776. We said no to restrictions.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but if you're going to argue from the logic and facts side, you need to have the facts correct.

The Bill of Rights was drafted in 1789 and ratified in 1791.

 

[Sky]

We already sat at the table and talked about guns... In 1776. We said no to restrictions

The Bill of Rights was drafted in 1789 and ratified in 1791.

His intent though was short and uh short hahhah.
Yes but that is history (which seems to not be used by many modern thinkers/law makers, anti's) just like the constitution which is old and needs some progressive work-over according to some of the talking heads..

If they go after the guns like so many countries have done before (many road maps to choose from) it will just be another foot note in the history of the world with an outcome that has been written many times before. Some see good, some see bad, and I imagine most of us who have read a bit of history think a knee jerk touchy feely response is bad.

Either way it won't be the end of the world but there are bound to be those who will be dissatisfied on both sides of the argument.

http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg was part of Isreal's response

The Ma'alot massacre[1] was a terrorist attack in 1974 which included a two-day hostage-taking of 115 people which ended in the deaths of over 25 hostages. It began when three armed Palestinian terrorists of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine[2] entered Israel from Lebanon. Soon afterwards they attacked a van, killing two Israeli Arab women while injuring a third and entered an apartment building in the town of Ma'alot, where they killed a couple and their four-year-old son.[3] From there, they headed for the Netiv Meir elementary school, where they took more than 115 people (including 105 children) hostage on 15 May 1974, in Ma'alot. Most of the hostages were teenagers from a high school in Safad on a Gadna field trip spending the night in Maalot. The hostage-takers soon issued demands for the release of 23 Palestinian militants from Israeli prisons, or else they would kill the students. On the second day of the standoff, a unit of the Golani Brigade stormed the building. During the takeover, the hostage-takers killed the children with grenades and automatic weapons. Ultimately, 25 hostages, including 22 children, were killed and 68 more were injured.

Janet Reno and a quote attributed to her...http://youtu.be/ln56Zp22res is in this vid..

 

[we are not amused]

His intent though was short and uh short hahhah.

And not all that wrong! The fight at Lexington and Concord was about preventing the British from disarming the American Militias. the American Revolution arguably started with an attempted act of gun control.

 

[powder]

No, we will probably not have a place at the table anymore, unfortunately.

Here is why: Tea Party crazies and others, screaming about taking away "entitlements". Stay with me here, as several have already marked upon it.

Mentally ill people with guns have become a serious problem in the US, in the last 30 years particularly: 30 years ago we started to close down the publicly funded mental healthcare facilities. Now, we are reaping the crop of unstable and anti-social people.

We have gone from detection/treatment and housing facilities for the mentally ill, to warehousing them in prison after the fact (criminal activity). Now, if you think that's just a bunch of Socialist/liberal hogwash, go to your state's Dept. of Corrections website and find the phone # for information or the Stats. page: 35-80% of your state's prison inmates have been declared mentally ill by professionals, after the crime instead of before.

Peace and prayers to the effected families and the first responders who were there yesterday on scene.

 

[we are not amused]

Several people have posted various comments about where he got his guns, and whether his mother bought them for him.

In essence, I think such speculation is wrong and harmful to the RKBA community, as casual viewers of this thread may get wrong information and ideas.

While gossip and speculation is human nature, we need to be aware that very few facts are out yet, and many of the news stories contain gross factual errors. The days where you could believe what you read in the papers or saw on television are long over if they ever existed. The story has already changed in many important details in just 24 hours. it will undoubtedly change more.