Wolf Ammo

[Hazwaste]

I've been shooting steel-cased Wolf ammo (what else???) in my Romanian AK wannabe for over a year now, with barely a problem. The rifle is meant to eat this stuff, and it does a good job of it.

Also, I believe it's good range etiquette to not disturb someone while they are shooting. The time to B.S. is when the line is cold.

Anyway, a group of older gentlemen were benchrest shooting a few stalls down from me when one of them noticed me using a "non-sporting" rifle. On three different occasions he came up to me, while I was shooting, complaining that I was using Wolf ammo, and how bad it is that I'm using Russian ammo and that it has a steel case. He then said that I should be using "good American brass" for my Soviet-bloc rifle. He wasn't overtly rude, just really really persistant.

His concern was not that my steel would get mixed up in the brass on the ground, just that it would ruin my rifle. No amount of reasoning with this gentlemen could get him to either leave me alone to shoot or to convince him that there was nothing wrong with using Russian ammo in a Soviet-bloc firearm.

In any case, I was polite as I always am and thanked him each time for his advice, though I am going to ignore it. His heart was in the right place, I guess. He was merely (in his mind) trying to save my rifle from damage.

Other than that, a great day at the range siting in my new POSP scope!

 

[YankeeRebel]

A friend of mine has a semi-automatic version of the Thompson Tommie Gun in .45 ACP. He will not fire Wolf ammo in it and it is not the steel cases nor that is is made in Russia. I forget just what it is but he is very adamint about not using Wold.

 

[TallPine]

This "older gentleman" needs a good steaming hot cup of ****

 

[Werewolf]

I've never understood why people dislike Wolf so much. You get what you pay for and though it's not the most consistent cartridge around it's always gone bang when I've used it.

I've used Wolf exclusively in my Saiga Rifle 7.62X39 with ZERO problems - not unexpected.

I've also used quite a bit of it in .40 S&W in my Glock. The Glock eats it like candy - no problems ever with it. AND since the cases are steel I'd imagine that in the .40 S&W caliber it is actually a bit safer to use than brass cased cartridges considering what we know about Glocks and the KABOOM problems they have with that caliber. Since I don't reload the .40 I've got no problem using Wolf ammo in it on the range for just punching holes in paper.

I probably wouldn't use Wolf Ammo in a 1911 because the anecdotal evidence is that in the long run the 1911 extractor wouldn't hold up against a steel case. OTOH I'd have no problem using a steel cased cartridge in my CZ-75 9mm. The only reason I haven't used Wolf in 9mm is that the gun store I buy 9mm from has S&B cheaper (and I can reload the S&B and can't reload the Wolf).

FWIW I'd have thanked the guy for his advice once. The second time I'd have discussed it with him in an effor to educate him about commie guns. After that I'd have just told him that what I shoot out of my rifle was my business not his - go away.

 

[clipse]

I like it in my SKS but I will never use it again in handguns. I hate smell it leaves on my hands after shooting.


clipse

 

[bountyhunter]

I've never understood why people dislike Wolf so much. You get what you pay for and though it's not the most consistent cartridge around it's always gone bang when I've used it.

OK, let the wars begin. Just for info, I'll give the highlights. The Firing Line had some good threads on the Wolf ammo problems.

1) Steel case rims tear up extractor hooks. Extractors (especially 1911) are made of softer steel for toughness to resist cracking and allow bending. Steel hook on brass rim= little wear. Soft steel hook on steel rim = worn out hook pretty quick.

2) Broken extractor hooks. The cases sieze in the throat from the melted lacquer and then the extractor tip shears off.

3) Siezing up from melted lacquer deposits in throat.

4) Ruining AR-15 gun assemblies. Olympic Arms posted on the front page of their websites, a warning that using Wolf ammo (they called it by name) voids the warranty because they are done replacing gun assemblies that are ruined by lacquer deposits.

5) Steel cases in gneral will not cycle in many guns because they change the "unlock" rate of the action because the steel expansion/return rate ot the case is different from brass.

Other than that, I highly recommend the stuff.

 

[jsalcedo]

Works great in my SKS and SAR 1, makarov

Tried wolf in my .45acp Sistema and it keyholed nearly every round.

I can get used to the acrid stink.

It's useability is on a case by case basis.

 

[444]

I love these know it all range busybodies that won't leave you alone. This is why I seldom go to a formal range to shoot. I am lucky enough to live in a place where I can shoot by myself.
I am a member of a gun club and I occasionally go there to shoot, maybe a half dozen times a year. Every time I go there, some old retired gentlemen insists on shooting right beside me and engaging me in conversation. I like people and enjoy BSing as much as the next guy, but there is a time and a place for that and when someone is obviously trying to do something else, leave them alone.
If I had been in your shoes, about the third time he came over to me, I would have told him in no uncertain terms to leave me alone.

The subject of Wolf ammo has been covered on this board countless times. I have said my peace on the subject about 50 times. If you are interested, you can use the search function to research it.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

If that range bozo wants to PAY for me to use proper American made ammo, he can provide me with it. Otherwise I am going to feed my commie gun commie ammo. The cold war is over. Get a life and move on.

ZM

 

[Brad Johnson]

OK, let the wars begin. Just for info, I'll give the highlights. The Firing Line had some good threads on the Wolf ammo problems.

1) Steel case rims tear up extractor hooks. Extractors (especially 1911) are made of softer steel for toughness to resist cracking and allow bending. Steel hook on brass rim= little wear. Soft steel hook on steel rim = worn out hook pretty quick.

2) Broken extractor hooks. The cases sieze in the throat from the melted lacquer and then the extractor tip shears off.

3) Siezing up from melted lacquer deposits in throat.

4) Ruining AR-15 gun assemblies. Olympic Arms posted on the front page of their websites, a warning that using Wolf ammo (they called it by name) voids the warranty because they are done replacing gun assemblies that are ruined by lacquer deposits.

5) Steel cases in gneral will not cycle in many guns because they change the "unlock" rate of the action because the steel expansion/return rate ot the case is different from brass.

Sigh - All of the above (which is rampant speculation based on hype, myth, and misinformation) has been thoroughly discounted through first-hand accounts of actual Wolf ammo users.

I shoot thousands of rounds of Wolf a year through most everything I own. I have not noticed any out-of-the-ordinary wear & tear on any of my weapons. Case and point, my XD-9 has over 2000 rounds of Wolf through it, in addition to about 9000 rounds of misc other stuff, and shows no undue wear.

Brad

 

[roo_ster]

Wolf Ammo & PITA Busybodies

Brother, I hear ya.
--
Some ranges I go I can't go through a magazine without some fellow coming up and harping on why I ought not to use Wolf ammo. It goes "bang", hasn't broken any of my weapoons that use it: 1911s (9mm & .45), Kel-tec P40 (.40).
--
I once had some trouble while shooting it, but it turned out to be a weak mag spring. Go figure. The aforementioned 9mm & .45 have fired up a lot of it and gotten pretty darn hot while doing so. So far, no problems.
--
I have used other steel cased ammo in a .308 bolt action that did not like laquered cases after heating up. If Wolf made .308 I'd give 'em a try.
--
I suspect some of the reloaders where I shoot don't like it, 'cause they can't follow me aound during a "lost brass" match & get free brass. That's only speculation, though.
--
If you don't like Wolf ammo and MUST approach somebody to inform them of their "error," please be polite and do it only once per range session. Repeated harping on it, while I shoot hundreds of rounds of it downrange, does not help your case.
--
You may find Wolf does not work for you. Some firearms are more finicky than others, as are firearm-owners. I believe all they guys who say they have had problems with it. Trouble is, I've had probelms with top of the line ammo, too. Does that make all Cor-Bon, Federal, and Hornady trash, just 'cause they have all failed or caused some problem with my firearms?
--
Anyway, you shoot the brands you like, I'll shoot the brands I like, & we'll all get along just peachy.

 

[Tropical Z]

I'll always believe that if YOU choose to own a gun that isnt man enough to handle steel cased ammo,then you should leave it safely tucked away IN your safe where it can look pretty!

 

[Hazwaste]

I did have a little bit of satisfaction. Apparently my "brass" was pelting them for a few minutes before I realized it and moved to the other side.

That's how they knew I was using Wolf.

That WASR can REALLY throw the empties!

 

[444]

Well, after reading that, I don't blame the guy for coming over and "bothering" you. You started it.
Seriously, that isn't kosher to pelt someone with your ejected brass (or steel as the case may be ). Nor is it funny. Hot ejected cases burn. I have given myself second degree burns when a case stuck between my collar and my skin. There is also the chance of getting one between someones glasses and their eye.
Most people arrive at a shooting range with some kind of range bag, box or something to carry their gear in. Just sit the object between other shooters and your ejection port if you can't take the spot on the end where the ejected case won't hit someone.

It sounds like this guy was trying, in a very nice way, to be obnoxious enough so that you would leave and let him get back to his shooting.

 

[Hazwaste]

He didn't bother me until after I realized my mistake and had already moved.

What are you shooting that would give you a 2nd degree burn??? I've had empties fly into my shirt or hit my head, and they just weren't that hot.

 

[444]

OK, my bad.

I have done that with a .22 LR. I had one that somehow ejected and came down on my arm and got caught by my watch band. The shirt incident I think was a .223. I have also got one behind my glasses although it didn't injure me, it hurt for a second before I could pull my glasses away from my face. I think the key to actually having the brass burn you is having it pressed up against your skin and held there.
Ejected brass is hot. In fact, in the summer here any brass is hot no matter how long ago it was fired.

 

[Dave R]

Brad Johnson, Wolf ammo broke the extractor on my Hi-Power. No hype, no 2nd hand story.

I still use Wolf all the time in my AK. And I am perfectly willing to believe my Hi-Power had a slightly tight chamber. And I know the laquer doesn't melt. You can take a blowtoarch to it and see. (And it would melt in bump-fired AK's if was going to melt anywhere.)

But in my Hi-Power, the spent cases would get stuck so bad I had to pound them out with a dowel. Gotta be hard on extractors. No other ammo has stuck in my chamber. So I stay away from Wolf in 9mm, and advise others who may have tight chambers to do the same.

 

[Brad Johnson]

But in my Hi-Power, the spent cases would get stuck so bad I had to pound them out with a dowel. Gotta be hard on extractors. No other ammo has stuck in my chamber. So I stay away from Wolf in 9mm, and advise others who may have tight chambers to do the same.

One of my shooting buddies runs regularly runs Wolf through his Hi-Power with no problems, and a Hi-Power I had was was fed a regular diet of Wolf as well. Sounds your problem was probably gun-specific instead of ammo-specific.

Brad

 

[CZ-100]

I shoot it through my Romanian AK all the time.

Works Great!

 

[bountyhunter]

Sigh - All of the above (which is rampant speculation based on hype, myth, and misinformation) has been thoroughly discounted through first-hand accounts of actual Wolf ammo users.

Actually, everything I posted was taken from multiple incidents of guns breaking or failing to cycle. the refusal of manu US guns to cycle steel cases because of the unlock time differential is documented in gun tests published where guns simply choke on the stuff and shoot every other brand of ammo.

As for the "myths" aspect: well, since a gunsmith journal I subscribed to printed information about the failure modes and the remedies used to fix the guns brought in with them, I suspect they are not imaginary.

Further, the Olympic Arms website which posted a warning specifically about Wolf ammo is available to all.


As for all those Wolf ammo users who have "thoroughly discounted" everything I wrote, you are not grasping the concept of "anecdotal evidence". I never said that NO GUNS would cyle Wolf ammo, I simply stated the results which have occurred in MANY guns trying to shoot it. As for the rough percentages, I would see negative versus positive running about five or ten to one against Wolf ammo on the threads. Use whatever you want, just know the facts before you choose.


And FWIW: if you think that using steel cases isn't going to round off the tip of an extractor made from spring steel, I've got a used bridge I want to show you at a very reasonable price.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Actually, everything I posted was taken from multiple incidents of guns breaking or failing to cycle. the refusal of manu US guns to cycle steel cases because of the unlock time differential is documented in gun tests published where guns simply choke on the stuff and shoot every other brand of ammo.

I'd be interested to see the tests. Could you please tell me where I can find them.

As for the "myths" aspect: well, since a gunsmith journal I subscribed to printed information about the failure modes and the remedies used to fix the guns brought in with them, I suspect they are not imaginary.

Which gunsmith journal?

Further, the Olympic Arms website which posted a warning specifically about Wolf ammo is available to all.

I've seen their "warning". In it they make all kinds of horrendous claims including saying that one of the consequences will be an "impossible to clean chamber." You will also notice that the warning is entirely "...based on customer reported reliability problems". That's the red flag. They are basing the warning entirely on second-hand anecdotal evidence. I don't see one speck of evidence on their "Warning" page that offers a first-hand, in-house account of that particular problem.

Also, if Wolf ammo was truly that horrendous, you would thinkg that the truly high-volume mfgs (the ones with the most to lose on warranty claims) would all have warnings. They don't.

As for the rough percentages, I would see negative versus positive running about five or ten to one against Wolf ammo on the threads. Use whatever you want, just know the facts before you choose.

I agree - know the facts. And the fact is that the overwhelming majority of the negative posts about Wolf ammo contain no actual first-hand data, just a regurgitation of the "Wolf is Bad" mantra. When you use only posts with first-hand accounts of Wolf ammo use the majority report no problems whatsoever, and the problems reported by others are generic and widespread enough that they could have been the result of any number of issues.

Some guns don't like some types of ammo. That's a fact of life when it comes to shooting sports. But just because a gun here or there won't digest a particular round does not make the ammo generically "bad", it just means that it won't work well in that gun.

And FWIW: if you think that using steel cases isn't going to round off the tip of an extractor made from spring steel, I've got a used bridge I want to show you at a very reasonable price.

There is a layer of soft laquer between the steel of the case and the steel of the extractor. It's the laquer, not the steel case, that comes into contact with the extractor. It's the same concept as crankshaft bearings in your engine. A tiny film of oil is all that's between the hard steel crank and the fragile surface material of the bearing.

Now about the bridge - I think it would go swell with the Statue of Liberty, which I purchased last week.

Brad

 

[bountyhunter]

I'd be interested to see the tests. Could you please tell me where I can find them.

I read two in Gun Tests magazine in the last two years. You can also research how auto loaders are designed as to "unlock time" and how the difference between brass and steel's contraction rate changes this. It's simple physics.

Which gunsmith journal?

I recall it's name was AGI? I subscribed for a year. They had an article on how Wolf would sieze up in any throat that was "tight on spec", as opposed to "garbage loose" like many new guns are. They also referred to the fact that steel swells and holds it's shape more than brass, exerting more pressure on the throat walls than a comparable brass cartridge after firing.

I've seen their "warning". In it they make all kinds of horrendous claims including saying that one of the consequences will be an "impossible to clean chamber." You will also notice that the warning is entirely "...based on customer reported reliability problems". That's the red flag. They are basing the warning entirely on second-hand anecdotal evidence.

Dude, I am not sure what text is currently posted, but I read what they posted when it first went up and the "reliability issue" you refer to were there own guns being returned under warranty with the actions siezed up which they had to fix at their own expense. They put up the disclaimer so they wouldn't keep losing money.

Think about it: If it was just second hand stories they were hearing, why would they risk getting sued by Wolf for posting a public notice that their product was defective and damaged guns? They wouldn't give a crap if they weren't being required to fix the guns under warranty.

I agree - know the facts. And the fact is that the overwhelming majority of the negative posts about Wolf ammo contain no actual first-hand data, just a regurgitation of the "Wolf is Bad" mantra.

Don't know what posts you're reading, but the ones I read were: "Broke my extractor" (at least three on the Beretta Forum, "Filthiest crap I ever shot " (many at various places), "Uneven power" (some so hot it was slamming the slide), "Keeps jamming in the throat" (many), "lacquer builds up and dries in the throat" (many).

Sounded like first hand data to me, especially when they showed pictures of the broken extractors.

There is a layer of soft laquer between the steel of the case and the steel of the extractor. It's the laquer, not the steel case, that comes into contact with the extractor.

You are actually saying you think that the sharp claw of the extractor is not going to cut straight through a layer of paint when the slide yanks rearward trying to extract the case? Good luck with that one.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I know about unlock time and how it is staged. I also know that the contraction rate beween the two metals is different (as you said - "simple physics). What you are omitting is the number of other variables that have a far greater impact on unlock and cycle time - chamber pressure, cartridge wall thickness, bullet weight and velocity, etc. The expansion and contraction coefficient deltas between cases of steel and brass is far less than those of two similar brass cases at each end of the pressure spectrum.

Some guns are finicky with certain types of ammo. It's no secret that Wolf does not function well in guns with "tight" chambers. Guns from precision makers like Kimber and STI will often balk with mil-spec ammo, but they also pitch a fit with reloads and some less-precise factory loads as well. Most guns, however, are made for the general consumer and are chambered to the "loose" side for reliability with all ammo types. That a gun is chambered tight or loose only means that the gun will be picky with certain types of ammo. It is not indicative of some fault with a particular brand.

As for the Olympic Arms warning, I can only call it like I see it. Their warning only makes note of complaints relayed to them by customers. There is no mention of them having the problem in-house. I have to discount the second-hand nature of the info because real world experience has taught me that the vast majority of problems with a "gun" are usually user-initiated. Most can be directly traced to one of two things - dirty guns and poor technique. I have had several occasions where somebody was proclaiming that his gun was malfunctioning, only to find that the poor sap had overlubricated his (or her) gun and the excess lube had migrated into the primers. Ditto for all the times a gun was not cycling properly and a quick cleaning or change of handhold had them blasting away.

As for the other direct complaints -

- Broken extractors on the Beretta forum - broken extractors are not exclusive to Wolf ammo. Beretta extractors are a known problem with all ammo types. Don't believe me? Do a google search with the following criteria - "broken extractor" AND "beretta"

- Filthiest crap I ever shot - obviously these folks have never shot UMC brand or anything loaded with cast bullets over a nice charge of W231, Unique or Bullseye. Wolf does leave a lot of residue, but no more than some other loads.

- Uneven Power, some so hot it was slamming the slide - I've never noticed Wolf ammo being inconsistent in terms of power, nor has anyone I've ever shot with made mention of it. As far as it being "hot" ammo, well, Wolf ammo is loaded hot. Always has been. It has a lot of muzzle flash, too. Some people don't mind it, others can't stand it. It's a subjective issue that is a function of personal preference.

- Keeps jamming in the throat - See the part of my post above about some guns being finicky with certain types of ammo. My problem with this is that many people who find out that a gun is picky with certain ammo will not simply swtich to something the gun likes. They continue to shoot the ammo anyway and claim that it's the ammo's fault. That's just silly (not to mention terribly unintelligent).

- Laquer builds up in the throat - I doubt it. Unless you subscribe to the "shoot it til it jams" theory of cleaning guns, I have yet to see enough laquer residue in a chamber to cause problems. As I have stated before, I have on several occasions, shot 500+ rounds of Wolf through my XD-9 as fast as I could get the mags loaded. On all occasions there was little laquer builup, and a quick swipe with a Hoppe's soaked patch was all it took to get things nice and tidy again.

As far as the "sharp claw of the extractor cutting straight through a layer of paint when the slide yanks reaward, well, if it's THAT sharp, it would be gouging chunks out of the nice, soft brass cases you currently use. Does it?

Brad

 

[lee n. field]

Wolf Ammo: Your Mileage May Vary.

That should be in a FAQ somewhere.

Works fine in my commie guns. I broke an extractor in my Mini-14 with the classic stuck case problem, and have no desire to repeat the experience.

 

[bountyhunter]

Works fine in my commie guns. I broke an extractor in my Mini-14 with the classic stuck case problem, and have no desire to repeat the experience.

That raises a good point: some guns are designed to cycle steel case ammo and the "commie guns" will because their throats are sized out for it and their extractors are made with pulling steel in mind. My point was, you may not want to put it into any gun that was made in this country because it's NOT designed for it.