What is a scout rifle

[steverjo]

I have seen many messages regarding scout rifles, but i am not familiar with what makes a rifle a "scout". Is it overall length? scope placement? caliber? Most of them seem to come about by some sort of "do it yourself" project. What is their use and how accurate are they?

 

[yesit'sloaded]

More or less it is a light weight, magazine fed rifle with a low powered scope. There is an actual definition for a "real" scout rifle but I don't remember it off the top of my head.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

* A maximum unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3.5 kilograms, 3 kg optimal.
* An overall length of 1 meter or less.
* A forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification, typically 2-3 diameters. This preserves the shooters' peripheral vision, clears the ejection port of the rifle, makes possible the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and eliminates any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory.
* Ghost ring auxiliary iron sights: a rear sight consisting of a receiver-mounted large-aperture thin ring, and typically a square post front sight.
* A "Ching" or "CW" sling. Against common practice, Cooper advocated the use of a sling as a shooting aid. The Ching sling offers the convenience of a carrying strap and the steadiness of a target shooter's sling with the speed of a biathlete's sling. (The CW sling is a simpler version of a Ching sling, consisting of a single strap.)
* A standard chambering of .308 Winchester/7.62 mm caliber; 7 mm-08 for locales that forbid military chamberings; and .243 Winchester for young or recoil-shy people. Cooper also commissioned "Lion Scout," chambered for the .350 Remington Magnum cartridge.

Other optional features included a retractable bipod, detachable magazines, a butt magazine, and an accessory rail for lights and other attachments. The addition of some of these features often render the rifle technically not a scout as originally defined, but this has come to be accepted by many as still conforming to the spirit if not the letter of the concept.

 

[Soap]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

 

[KI.W.]

Scout rifle

Colonel Jeff Coopers brain child. Not so good idea.

 

[El Tejon]

Says who?

 

[Andrewsky]

I think Scout Rifles are very good for hunting but not good for much else.

Especially since the military doesn't have "scouts" that operate individually anymore.

 

[El Tejon]

The stated purpose is to be a good "everything" rifle. Speciality tools have their place, but as a GP rifle, the Scout has no peer.

The military does not have "scouts" anymore? Like say . . . Scout Snipers? Hmmm, don't know about that, http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/marines/a/marinesniper.htm

"Due to the nature of the sniper's mission, they must be trained mentally and physically to operate independently forward of friendly positions on the battlefield."

When it came out the SS was kicked around by some as a spotter's weapon. With the exception of irregular warfare, it was not picked up by any armed force that I am aware of.

"We continue to wonder about the appearance of the Steyr Scout in the hands of the KLA. It is said that a lot of KLA support is coming from Muslim drug trading in Albania, but even if this is so, I would think that it would be more business-like to buy six or seven Kalashnikovs in place of one SS. Of course, the SS is probably a better weapon for mountain guerrillas than the Kalashnikov, but one wonders who was in a position to make that decision." http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff7_5.html

The Scout's problem is the market for this weapon is extremely limited. The SS is for the educated, experienced shooter. It is not for those we see at large sporting good retailers or the gun shoppe taking their weapons off their shoulders to work the bolts with their tongues hanging out.

 

[Sistema1927]

I think Scout Rifles are very good for hunting but not good for much else.

I have a pseudo-Scout that I created from an Ishapore 2A1, and it is the last weapon that I would take hunting. However, if I ever need a rifle to maintain a perimeter of 200-300 yards it would be the first weapon I would choose.

 

[Clipper]

I liked Jeff Cooper a lot, but there were times even he was full of it, and in my opinion, the scout was one of 'em...

 

[DiN_BLiX]

The military does not have "scouts" anymore? Like say . . . Scout Snipers? Hmmm, don't know about that

Especially since the military doesn't have "scouts" that operate individually anymore.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Military snipers need to be able to conduct precision engagements in that sweet spot outside effective enemy return fire from guys with iron sighted assault rifles.

The Scout Rifle does not fulfill that requirement.

Military snipers also need to be able to dump lots of lead down range in a close quarters/break contact sort of situation.

The Scout Rifle does not fulfill that requirement either.

I'd take a true sniping bolt gun with an M4 or even two SR-25s over a pair of Scout Rifles or a sniper rifle plus a Scout Rifle every day of the week. For a general purpose, compromise sort of long gun a hunter can carry all over the countryside and use in terrain ranging from brush to open fields out to about 300 meters, I think it's an interesting idea (though how necessary is debatable). Militarily it's the most significant development of the early 1920s, just several decades too late.

 

[Danny Creasy]

You have heard of funny cars,

Well, my scout is a funny gun. Just for kicks.

.45 ACP BRNO scout



BRNO vz24 action
Douglas barrel
Choate stock
Burris 2 3/4 scout scope in Burris Scout mount and rings
Timney trigger

She was always accurate with jacketed bullets and after fire lapping with a NECO kit, she will do one inch at 50 yards with bulk caste lead 230 grain round nose (sometimes).

The thing would be hell with a can. But, I have no need for such.

 

[DavidLee]

Hrm, I was under the impression that a scout rifle is what police carry in their cruisers on patroll.. and when owned by a civilian is an fully automatic, nuclear powered machine gun that sprays 4,000 bullets a second.

Learned some'n new

I haven't even heard the term "scout rifle" used till yesterday.. give it a few months.. scout rifles will turn into sniper rifles.

 

[trstafford]

Evidently the Military agrees with Jeff Cooper!!!!!

If you look at the rifles our troops are carrying they have low power forward mounted sighting systems (scout style). In one area there was an investigation into assignations because of large number of head shootings in Iraq, but it was determined that the aiming systems accuracy and only the insurgents heads were typically exposed in battle.
Cooper was not the originator of the scope forward mounting system, it was used very successfully in WW2 by the Germans.

Just because he gave his criteria for the ultimate "Scout Rifle" doesn't mean that is the only way it can be made. I purchased a CZ carbine in 7.62x39 with the intentions of mounting a scout scope on it. Since I normally shoot low power scopes and keep both eyes open when using a conventional mounted scope having the scope in a scout location would be great for deer hunting in woods.

Greatest Idea for defense, woods hunting, or running game shooting......

 

[Deer Hunter]

A rifle you can scout with?

 

[inherentical]

In one area there was an investigation into assignations because of large number of head shootings in Iraq, but it was determined that the aiming systems accuracy and only the insurgents heads were typically exposed in battle.

That was the USMC using ACOG-equipped M16A4s in Fallujah, Iraq. They were most definitely not using "scout" type rifles.

I suppose rifles with optics mounted scout fashion on them have their place, but it's certainly not on the modern battlefield. To make it clear, I'd throw the thing away and pick up an enemy AK if I survived long enough to do so.

OOH-RAH DEVIL DOGS!

WHAT MAKES THE GRASS GROW?

 

[ArmedBear]

To piggyback on tmpick's post: the ACOG is not a forward-mounted scope. It's used about like the scope on Joe Sixpack's deer rifle; it's just higher-tech.

Now the "scout scope" or IER scope does work well for some things. I shoot shotguns at moving objects (clays, birds, rabbits), so I like both-eyes-open shooting. An IER scope like a Leupold 2.5x lets you do that while still providing some magnification as well as a nice precise crosshair rather than iron sights. Ruger's Frontier Rifle is a neat little hunting rifle, with the "pointability" of a shotgun or a brush carbine, combined with most of the functionality of a full-size deer rifle, in a compact package.

However, I wouldn't want one in combat. And it's missing major features that would make it a Cooper "scout rifle" anyway; it just has an IER scope and it's under 1m in length.

 

[Cosmoline]

The Marine Scout Snipers use long range sniper rifles, don't they? I can't see them using a low-mag, IER scope.

I think the Frontier with a 2x and a 10 round box magazine would have made a FANTASTIC battle rifle... in WWI or WWII. But today, maybe not so much.

 

[inherentical]

The Marine Scout Snipers use long range sniper rifles, don't they? I can't see them using a low-mag, IER scope.

They used to. When I was in, from '92-'96, they were using the M40A1. At least that's what I was trained on at Aberdeen. Once I got out to the fleet I never touched a sniper rifle again. I haven't kept up on what they're using currently, and the only reason I know the thing about the ACOGs is from watching the top ten combat rifles program on the Discovery channel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11rDdh8Kcq4

The ACOG bit is near the end of the M16 segment, around 4:34 in this video.

 

[jpwilly]

The official Jeff Cooper scout rifle is a bolt action with a foward mounted, low power, long eye relief scope (to facilitate feeding stripper clips into the magazine), backup Iron sights (don't have), a bipod, light weight, plus 30 cal or equivelent with extra ammo carried on rifle for quick reloads.

In the spirit of a "scout rifle" the current M16 and M4 with quick sighting system and detachable high cap magazine with it's light weight will also fill that roll very well for 2 leg critter hunting.

My M44 "Scout Rifle"


OR my M4 "Scout Rifle" (I'd rather have this one when the SHTF):

 

[ArmedBear]

Yeah, I think that the main benefit of the IER scope is not loading with stripper clips. Hell, the WW I Enfields had detachable magazines. Only problems with standardization limited their usefulness. Modern manufacturing made stripper clips obsolete for loading a military rifle decades ago.

The main benefit is the quick acquisition and eyes-open targeting you can do with the forward-mounted scope.

Ruger's little hunting rifles certainly aren't made that way so you can use stripper clips.

 

[JesseL]

IIRC, Cooper's specification's for his scout concept didn't require it to be a bolt action. I remember him mentioning it could be an autoloader as long as it met the weight requirement.

Personally, I think a lightweight AR-10 (ala Bushmaster's Carbon- series) firing 260 Remington would make for an excellent rifle for the role the Col. intended.

 

[El Tejon]

I like the optic forward mounted as it facilitates "shoot one, load one" drills. So nice not to have anything interfering with the weapon's magazine so I do not bounce cratridges off the mounts.

It also helps with snap shooting, target acquisition, moving shots, and prevents the "eyebrow wound badge" that you see the Fudds with every fall.

 

[HorseSoldier]

IIRC, Cooper's specification's for his scout concept didn't require it to be a bolt action. I remember him mentioning it could be an autoloader as long as it met the weight requirement.

I think you're right. His description of the Scout Rifle (at least as described in Art of the Rifle, there may be other descriptions of it he did in all his assorted writings) rules out using a semi-auto specifically due to weight (not aided by his stipulation that it be at least .308).