What is a scout rifle
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Mannlicher
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a standard definition is that the Scout Rifle is a wonderful solution for a non existent problem.
This is about as 'scout' as I want to go.
This is about as 'scout' as I want to go.
Cooper invented the term so as to invent something. The concept of the "scout rifle" is as old as the Krag 30-40 carbine, (short, full caliber rifle, easy to carry all day, and fast handling). Actually the definition probably goes back to the Winchester 73, the scout rifle of its day. Steyr obliged Cooper with a nice little gun, I have fired them in .223 and .308. In .223 was a fun gun, slightly loud and flashy in .308. Just a handy carbine size weapon that one can carry all day-loads with removable mags, BTW.
My "scout rifle" is the aforesaid Krag 30-40. Was issued to my grandfather when he signed up after getting off the boat in 1898. Wound up in Cuba, took his rifle home, removed the handguard and mounted a Williams receiver sight sometime in the 20s. It has been used and reused for the last 100+ years. Was intended for Cavalry, got issued to a lot of troops. Do not know the exact date the carbine was issued to him, but it was sometime during or just after the Spanish-American War. Except for a forward mounted scope it IS the scout rifle. Even has a sling(probably not the original, but grandpa was a pack rat so who knows).
My "scout rifle" is the aforesaid Krag 30-40. Was issued to my grandfather when he signed up after getting off the boat in 1898. Wound up in Cuba, took his rifle home, removed the handguard and mounted a Williams receiver sight sometime in the 20s. It has been used and reused for the last 100+ years. Was intended for Cavalry, got issued to a lot of troops. Do not know the exact date the carbine was issued to him, but it was sometime during or just after the Spanish-American War. Except for a forward mounted scope it IS the scout rifle. Even has a sling(probably not the original, but grandpa was a pack rat so who knows).
Geronimo45
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The Scout Rifle seems to be miles away from being a GP battle rifle.
A scout, historically, is a ways ahead of the main group (distance-wise). He's on his own for the moment, and he's covering a lot of ground. Like everybody who carries a rifle around for long periods, a lighter weapon is better. Since any scout worth his salt won't be charging in to unfamiliar terrain like Rambo, he's more likely to be spotting his targets/enemies from a distance. A bolt-action rifle will do for distance shooting just fine. So will a semi or lever - but a bolt-action has fewer moving parts, thus less parts to break. A toothbrush, a boresnake, and CLP should be all you need to clean a bolt rifle.
Stripper clips are a very nice way of keeping ammo together. They're also very cheap and fairly tough. Carrying ammo in stripper clips instead of magazines allows lighter weight and still fewer chances of problems - bad springs in one magazine, having one mag smashed up...
A scout was often all alone for a long period, and travelled light and fast. He wasn't supposed to run out there stirring up the enemy.
The forward-mount scope, from what other folks have said, is good for fast shooting as circumstances dictate.
The Scout Rifle is not a tricked-out battle rifle. It is a minimalist rifle. It is chambered in a medium-power rifle round (.308 or similar). It is usually seen in slow-ROF weapons, due to weight concerns. It offers a great deal of simplicity, reliability, and light weight. It doesn't have a match-grade barrel, glass-bedded stock, suppressor, bayonet lug... it is, again, a minimalist rifle that can be used for hunting or anti-personnel duties.
The AR-15 is probably the opposite. Highly modular, allows high capacity, caliber changes for many ranges and tasks, highly-accurate uppers, semi-automatic fire, a plethora of optics attachment points for scopes, lasers, lights... it's a GP battle rifle (with somewhat shorter range).
If you have to carry a rifle with you for three months straight, with no resupply, which one would you rather have? I think that was what Cooper had in mind - a situation involving long-term carry with very little shooting, in a package minimizing weight and emphasizing simplicity, while providing moderate range and power.
A scout, historically, is a ways ahead of the main group (distance-wise). He's on his own for the moment, and he's covering a lot of ground. Like everybody who carries a rifle around for long periods, a lighter weapon is better. Since any scout worth his salt won't be charging in to unfamiliar terrain like Rambo, he's more likely to be spotting his targets/enemies from a distance. A bolt-action rifle will do for distance shooting just fine. So will a semi or lever - but a bolt-action has fewer moving parts, thus less parts to break. A toothbrush, a boresnake, and CLP should be all you need to clean a bolt rifle.
Stripper clips are a very nice way of keeping ammo together. They're also very cheap and fairly tough. Carrying ammo in stripper clips instead of magazines allows lighter weight and still fewer chances of problems - bad springs in one magazine, having one mag smashed up...
A scout was often all alone for a long period, and travelled light and fast. He wasn't supposed to run out there stirring up the enemy.
The forward-mount scope, from what other folks have said, is good for fast shooting as circumstances dictate.
The Scout Rifle is not a tricked-out battle rifle. It is a minimalist rifle. It is chambered in a medium-power rifle round (.308 or similar). It is usually seen in slow-ROF weapons, due to weight concerns. It offers a great deal of simplicity, reliability, and light weight. It doesn't have a match-grade barrel, glass-bedded stock, suppressor, bayonet lug... it is, again, a minimalist rifle that can be used for hunting or anti-personnel duties.
The AR-15 is probably the opposite. Highly modular, allows high capacity, caliber changes for many ranges and tasks, highly-accurate uppers, semi-automatic fire, a plethora of optics attachment points for scopes, lasers, lights... it's a GP battle rifle (with somewhat shorter range).
If you have to carry a rifle with you for three months straight, with no resupply, which one would you rather have? I think that was what Cooper had in mind - a situation involving long-term carry with very little shooting, in a package minimizing weight and emphasizing simplicity, while providing moderate range and power.
bulltaco
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That's The Colonel's Point
Geronimo you just nailed it!
Geronimo you just nailed it!
El Tejon
Member
Apparently some in the market know they want a Scout rifle but they do not know the term: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=308309
It seems there is hope.
It seems there is hope.
That's exactly what I was trying to get across earlier.
An upland shotgunner is most likely to appreciate using the design.
If I'm really going to wander about with no resupply for a while, I'll take any rifle that I can carry on my back, balanced. Short and light are good.
Anyone seen Patrick Smith's Rambling Rifle concept?
http://www.kifaru.net/
Now THERE'S a rifle design that meets (and BEATS the crap out of) the criteria for lots of carry, and it's multicaliber, too. And it's pretty likely that Patrick Smith (founder of MountainSmith) has more actual time and mileage alone with his rifle in the mountains, with no contact with others or opportunities for resupply, living off what he could carry and what he could shoot, and bringing back big game, than everyone at the scout rifle conference put together. His designs are conceived and tested in the mountains, not meetings.
It doesn't point like an upland shotgun, though.
Depends what you want it for.
And for chrissakes, I LIKE the scout rifle concept, generally. It's just that IMO its best merits are undervalued, and its dubious ones are played up for some reason.
Ruger's Frontier is an indication that at least some people "get" what its best merits are. Now if only someone besides Ruger could design the stock...
If you the old romantic notion of the longrifleman out on a trek, like Hawkeye on Last of the Mohicans or Dan'l Boone; that is really what Cooper and gang were going for. Not some superdooper military ersatz sniper cum death ray. A handy troublefree gun with good attributes for general use and infrequent contact with civilization.
Unfortunately, Patrick Smith's essays on his rifle designs appear to be gone from his site. It's a pity. Worth a read.
He doesn't fancy himself to be Hawkeye; he does, however, have real experience in doing what you describe, perhaps more than anyone else in the US.
He doesn't fancy himself to be Hawkeye; he does, however, have real experience in doing what you describe, perhaps more than anyone else in the US.
Armed Bear - It seems like you and I are on the same side of this.
I will add if you read the old Elmer Keith articles you would find he was a big fan of the British double rifle just for the way they handle. You bring up a British double, which if you are the original owner, they cut to fit you like a tailor fitting you with an expensive suit. That gun is a part of you. When you shoulder it, your sights are already aligned and you trigger it. Your hit is assured.
I think that is what Cooper's rifle is intended to mimic. His rhetoric often gets in the way of explanation because as much as I liked the old guy, he was an elitist
in his public persona and his diction did as much to obfuscate as enlighten.
I feel that many critics of the Scout Rifle idea have never fired a properly fitted high power rifle that they can shoulder and touch off in a nanosecond, being assured of a telling hit on the target so they really have no dog in this fight.
I will add if you read the old Elmer Keith articles you would find he was a big fan of the British double rifle just for the way they handle. You bring up a British double, which if you are the original owner, they cut to fit you like a tailor fitting you with an expensive suit. That gun is a part of you. When you shoulder it, your sights are already aligned and you trigger it. Your hit is assured.
I think that is what Cooper's rifle is intended to mimic. His rhetoric often gets in the way of explanation because as much as I liked the old guy, he was an elitist
in his public persona and his diction did as much to obfuscate as enlighten.I feel that many critics of the Scout Rifle idea have never fired a properly fitted high power rifle that they can shoulder and touch off in a nanosecond, being assured of a telling hit on the target so they really have no dog in this fight.
I really didn't give much thought to fit, balance, etc. until I learned to shoot trap.
Now the whole way I think about a rifle has completely changed.
That said, a light rifle has its downsides. I shot a 32" .45-70 straight-grip Sharps replica on Sunday. With its crude iron sights, and astigmatism in my right eye, I was able to keep a series of shots in a 6" circle at 100 yards, standing, no sling, no support of any kind. Couldn't repeat that with an AR-15 I also had. The Sharps weighed 10 lb. and was almost as long as my 34" trap single, and it could shoot as accurately as my eyes could see, offhand. Not quick, but steady.
And an IER scope has its downsides, like if you're hiding in the shadows before dawn and you want a wide-area magnified image of where you will shoot in your scope.
But an IER scope on a rifle that fits really does fill the niche when you're thinking, "Man, I wish I had a rifle that pointed like my shotgun and let me keep my eyes open, but let me see the exact target better than these #$%^ iron sights!" And, unlike what someone said above, this is NOT a problem that doesn't exist. Once you've used shotguns, it's something that enters you mind all the time.
Now the whole way I think about a rifle has completely changed.
That said, a light rifle has its downsides. I shot a 32" .45-70 straight-grip Sharps replica on Sunday. With its crude iron sights, and astigmatism in my right eye, I was able to keep a series of shots in a 6" circle at 100 yards, standing, no sling, no support of any kind. Couldn't repeat that with an AR-15 I also had. The Sharps weighed 10 lb. and was almost as long as my 34" trap single, and it could shoot as accurately as my eyes could see, offhand. Not quick, but steady.
And an IER scope has its downsides, like if you're hiding in the shadows before dawn and you want a wide-area magnified image of where you will shoot in your scope.
But an IER scope on a rifle that fits really does fill the niche when you're thinking, "Man, I wish I had a rifle that pointed like my shotgun and let me keep my eyes open, but let me see the exact target better than these #$%^ iron sights!" And, unlike what someone said above, this is NOT a problem that doesn't exist. Once you've used shotguns, it's something that enters you mind all the time.
Old Trapper
Member
This getting good
This tread is really starting to cook.
I wish we could integrate these observations about a properly fitting shotgun with the thread started about the possibility of 6.8 SPC scout rifle.
I offered that the 6.8 SPC doesn't fit the criteria for a scout rifle caliber, but that the 6.8 SPC might be a good carbine round.
Is there a niche between a shotgun and a scout rifle where a light handy carbine that fits and shoots like a good shotgun might thrive?
Could a properly designed carbine do some things that a scout rifle and a shotgun can't do? Or has the scout rifle narrowed the gap so far that a carbine just doesn't have very much breathing room where it can thrive?
Personally, I think there's a empty niche that the underpowered AR carbines won't fill because of the stock design just will not point like a good shotgun.
This tread is really starting to cook.
I wish we could integrate these observations about a properly fitting shotgun with the thread started about the possibility of 6.8 SPC scout rifle.
I offered that the 6.8 SPC doesn't fit the criteria for a scout rifle caliber, but that the 6.8 SPC might be a good carbine round.
Is there a niche between a shotgun and a scout rifle where a light handy carbine that fits and shoots like a good shotgun might thrive?
Could a properly designed carbine do some things that a scout rifle and a shotgun can't do? Or has the scout rifle narrowed the gap so far that a carbine just doesn't have very much breathing room where it can thrive?
Personally, I think there's a empty niche that the underpowered AR carbines won't fill because of the stock design just will not point like a good shotgun.
Yes.
And Ruger makes it. The Mini-14/5 in 6.8SPC. Fast followups, light weight, pointability, durability, reliability.
I've busted a series hand-thrown clays with my similar Ranch Rifle. It really does point well -- much better than something with an evil pistol grip, which has its merits, but shotgun-like pointability ain't one of 'em. The AR works well when your target's primary plane of motion is horizontal, which makes sense in a military design meant for shooting at enemy soldiers. All-around pointability involves more controlled vertical motion.
.223 doesn't cut it for true versatility. 6.8 does.
Of course, those who shell out Steyr prices are duty-bound to look down on the Mini-14, regardless of its merits.
Then there are the Winchester and Marlin lever guns made since the 19th century. They work pretty well, too.
But then you're departing from the cult of Cooper and merely asking the mundane question, "What works?" Clearly, that's not all that this is about.
XD-40 Shooter
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Savage just came out with a nice scout rifle in 308, I'm very interested in purchasing one. http://www.steyrscout.org/savscout.htm
The Savage looks like a nice hunting rifle. Still under 40", but with a 20" barrel.
6.25 lb. stripped is not at all a heavy rifle, however, when you actually set it up as a "scout rifle" with a scope and bipod, it'll weigh a lot more. For hunting, I'd skip the bipod anyway, and it could still come in near 7 lb. if I'm careful. Still lighter than the Ruger Frontier, with a good deal more barrel.
I'm intrigued.
Bummer they have to hand-fit the magazines, but for a hunting rifle, one spare is sufficient. Detachable magazine is good for pocketing your rounds without them rattling around loose, and quick load/unload to comply with F&G laws about public highways.
6.25 lb. stripped is not at all a heavy rifle, however, when you actually set it up as a "scout rifle" with a scope and bipod, it'll weigh a lot more. For hunting, I'd skip the bipod anyway, and it could still come in near 7 lb. if I'm careful. Still lighter than the Ruger Frontier, with a good deal more barrel.
I'm intrigued.
Bummer they have to hand-fit the magazines, but for a hunting rifle, one spare is sufficient. Detachable magazine is good for pocketing your rounds without them rattling around loose, and quick load/unload to comply with F&G laws about public highways.
Gator
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Actually that article is about the Savage Scout that was introduced in 2001 then discontinued. But Savage reintroduced it this year (in theory...haven't seen one yet) with an accu-trigger and a couple other changes.
redneckrepairs
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I have an " old " Savage Scout and like it . The bsquare mount is a bit high for me to get the kind of cheekweld i like but this is a common problem for " classic " stocked scoped rifles and is just an adjustment on my preferred technique . The rifle is light , quick to the shoulder and more accurate than i am . I have not tried clays yet but have absolutely no problem hitting hand lobbed soda cans and bottles with it making an impressive mid air " spray " lol and have shot prairie dogs out past 300 yards with it . Mine is topped with an NC Star 2x7 scope rather than the more classic ier scope it should be and so far ( about 100 or 150 rounds ) the scope seems to be holding up fine , adjustments included . All in all mine gets used as a " truck gun " for plinking and general ranch dutys since i did not draw any big game this year ( heck did not even apply ) , but were i to head to the hills after elk or go after pronghorn this little rifle would go along as the meat gun with one of my " better " rifles staying cased as a backup .
The changes made for the " new " savage scout is the accutrigger action and relocating the mag release from the side to the rear of the mag iirc .
The changes made for the " new " savage scout is the accutrigger action and relocating the mag release from the side to the rear of the mag iirc .
RevolvingCylinder
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You've destroyed a VZ24!
Northwest Cajun
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George Hill
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El Tejon
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"Scouting rifle"???
Is that a rifle you take to Boy Scout camp?
Is that a rifle you take to Boy Scout camp?
Cannonball888
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jpwilly
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I agree the market is small but scout rifles aren't always purchased buy educated and experienced shooters nor is it only educated and experienced shooters who may need/want one. I will argue that many modern rifles bolt action and semi auto rifles already fill the needs of most shooters - educated, experianced or otherwise. The scout rifle may fill a nich but let's not elevate the scout rifle buyer to elite status!
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