You guys are more likely to drive a motor vehicle after binge drinking

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Thank you for the props, mr hanky.

At least I come by the critical thinking honestly--my undergraduate work was at Carleton. At the time I went there, "critical thinking" was the a priori comprehensive goal of our education--and it paid off, I guess. I am still a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, but I do seem to know how to examine almost any subject.

A couple of years ago Hemenway came to the "Westminster Town Hall Forum," that Public Radio institution that largely is a relic of the "old-political-liberalism" days. (Dedicated Christian Liberalism in action.) I decided to try to take Hemenway on--so, I started a thread here, bought his (latest) book, and dug in. I got help from some forum members, and I pre-wrote ten or twelve questions for the Q&A period.

However, the moderator (god help me, a fiftyish-pastor with a hyphenated last name, no less) handled that easily, and Hemenway got lobbed a softball only. The whole meeting was a very sophisticated indoctrination program designed to a) reinforce the like-minded thinking of the faithful forum attendees, and b) introduce some lower-socioeconomic / minority high school students to the ideology.

Nonetheless, I did speak with Hemenway at the book-signing table during coffee. He's a nice-enough guy, but he also avoided my personal, non-confrontive query about the metaphor issue in the public health model. A good time was had by all, and I even got to meet a DFL retired legislator / former gubernatorial candidate that had been beaten by a Republican.

Enough blather. Study up on the issues of epidemiological models--and include some thinking about gunny-thinking of this nature, too. It helps to know your enemy, and we have to be careful that what Pogo says is not true.

Jim H.
 
We spend a fair amount of time on THR patting ourselves on the back for our ability to present rational arguments based on facts, while those stupid lazy anti morons present irrational arguments based on emotion.

Do our posts reflect the truth of that claim?

They are stupid kids trying to find their way being led by old hippies who took to much LSD to really understand that you may come face to face with a criminal who will kill you for ten dollars...because "thats a bummer maaaaaan"

You can tell he was getting worked up by this point--spitting little dribble mists of vodka on the keyboard as he read the lines aloud to convince himself.

the moderator (god help me, a fiftyish-pastor with a hyphenated last name, no less)

Of course, such pesky tidbits of truth are always inconvenient for anti's

Mike
 
Do our posts reflect the truth of that claim?

No, but I also have to do my group bonding. All evaluations are not rational and unemotive. Study group process some more, Mike.

Jim H.
 
The same study said that the most likely demographic to use hard drugs and have reckless sex, while owning a gun for self-defense, were inner-city black women. How does that compare to the average upper-middle-class college student? Much less the legal firearms owner?
 
My response:

Your article excellently points out the dangers of having students carry guns on campus.

It is absolutely unacceptable for students to carry guns. I recall two specific incidents at FSU that scared me when I went there:

The first one was a female student that used a gun to maliciously threaten two disadvantaged men who had entered her apartment in the dead of night by breaking her patio door.

The second was a gay student that willfully and dangerously drew a gun when he was gently restrained by a group of well-meaning men intent on correcting his sexual preferences. They were only meaning to help him!

As a rapist and thug, I support your efforts to keep guns off of college campuses. It makes me feel safer.

Thanks again and keep up the good work.
 
the moderator (god help me, a fiftyish-pastor with a hyphenated last name, no less)

No, but I also have to do my group bonding. All evaluations are not rational and unemotive. Study group process some more, Mike.

So our group bonding is based on making fun of people with hyphenated last names?

Mike
 
In part, yes. Stereotyping in group process serves to set off nongroup alternatives and to make them less desirable for emulation.

Is it "polite?" No. Is it "nice?" No. Is it politically correct? No. In this example, hyphenated last-naming stands in for cultural emasculation. Conversely, in his group, it probably conveys higher status, based on their implicit values of 'sensitivity,' etc.

But we digress--or, at least I do. I'll drop this now as I don't want to divert the thread--my original post identified an analytical process that can be used to refute the editorial stance, and the second post with the reminisences I identified as blather. You can take it as you wish.

Jim H.
 
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RPCVYemen

jfh put down the well-reasoned response so well we didn't need to duplicate his efforts.

We were just having a bit of fun. We try to keep to Oleg's standards as this is his clubhouse and all--but if it were purely analytical it would get boring.

That said, yes, you're right.
 
New England's gun laws are not any more strict than the rest of the country.

Did they not bother to do research for this article? Mass has some of the most restrictive gun laws, RI has one of the strangest CCW conditions going because police chiefs are supposed to issue the permit, but many are refusing to do so in violation of court order. Plus CT has restrictive gun laws. Its really messed up. The three southern New England states have roughly 2/3 of the population of the area, and they are the three with the restrictive gun laws. So yeah, these guys are a little bit off with their claims.
 
"...New England's gun laws are not any more strict than the rest of the country...."

When I attended that Forum speech / Q&A / coffee to hear Hemenway, the danger of his unchallenged assertions was smothered by the structure of the show. It was being broadcast live and recorded for later re-play--so it could not become a raucous (sp?) debate. Add in the other status-identifications issues--the speaker on a dias, behind a lecturn, with the listeners down in the pews, and it has the makings of God On High speaking.

Again, that quote is part of the flaw of this kind of analysis--and to challenge it successfully, it helps to spot all the unsubstantiated assertions that impact the audience perception of the validity of the data. Keep in mind that 'we' do it as well: more than one of us has Jeff Cooperisms in his signature line.

I note that the data was collected in 2000 and the report was done about 2001. It would be interesting to do it again, and to see what the data "facts" are now with the identification of legal / illegal carry.

Jim H.
 
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I'm looking at Miller et al right now. A couple observations:

There's nothing automatically invalid about a mail survey. The one reported here appears to have used
good methodology and the reported response rate of 52% is very good. They describe a lottery with cash prize for participating in the survey, but they don't disclose the amount of the prize. A very large prize might raise some concerns, but would probably not have been allowed by their human subjects committee.

Correlational research is not automatically invalid. There are lots of useful things you can learn from studying correlations.

Not all "social epidemiology" research is bad science, and there's no law that says epidemiological research has to use correlational designs.

The major problems with the survey results are that there was no consideration of whether guns were lawfully owned, no consideration of permitted carry, and no context for the question about having been threatened with a gun. For example if you own a gun and keep it at home, and are mugged on the street while unarmed, it is hard to see how the the firearm at home can be considered a risk factor.

As is common with this type of survey, there are some difficulties with the numbers of respondents in critical parts of the analysis.

For example, 4.3% of students had a firearm, and 5.9% of these reported having been threatened. 1.4% of those not owning guns reported having been threatened. That implies 430 gun owners in the survey, and 25 of these had been threatened with a gun (vs 140 of those who didn't own guns). Yet these variables are included in multivariate analysis with something like 15 predictors, and compared across 9 regions. This means that conclusions about any given predictor are likely to be based on very small numbers of individual respondents. This is especially true when considering relationships between being threatened by a gun and crack use, which also has very low base rates. If 47% of the gun owners had a gun for protection and 1.8% of these used crack, that's two individuals. Only .05% of those owning guns for other reasons reported crack use. That's one individual. It is absurd for the authors to comment on this difference as if it were meaningful (but they do).

It appears to me based on the above considerations that some of the reported confidence intervals and significance tests may have been derived on the basis of rather heroic assumptions. There might be a clue buried somewhere in the article, or perhaps a detail that is telling through its absence.

The authors do note that the cross sectional analysis cannot show causation, and that the data "do not show whether guns at college confer a net benefit, impose a net cost, or have an indifferent effect on college communities or on individual gun owners." They also sort of comment on the built-in ambiguity of the relationship between gun ownership and victimization: "Additional research is also needed to explore whether and if so,under what conditions, gun possession itself emboldens students to put themselves at risk for victimization, is a response to past victimization, is a response to accurate or systematically flawed perceptions of risk, or reflects an attitude towards risk that predisposes to both gun posession and risk-seeking behavior." I find these particular comments to be reasonable enough, although a little silly in that there was no consideration of lawful vs unlawful gun ownership in the article. Some criminals do go to college...

Oh, and Jim H, the data were actually collected in early 2001 for the this report.
 
Those owning a firearm were more likely to be freedom loving Americans living off campus. They were also more likely to drive a motor vehicle responsibly, have protected sex, vandalize criminals and get to know the local police at the range.
There, fixed it for ya.
 
Those going to college are more likely to be white (simple racial demographics in the US). Those owning guns are more likely to be male (simple market demographics). So....all the rest is meaningless.
 
John Rogers said:
This means that conclusions about any given predictor are likely to be based on very small numbers of individual respondents. This is especially true when considering relationships between being threatened by a gun and crack use, which also has very low base rates. If 47% of the gun owners had a gun for protection and 1.8% of these used crack, that's two individuals. Only .05% of those owning guns for other reasons reported crack use. That's one individual. It is absurd for the authors to comment on this difference as if it were meaningful (but they do).

This seems to me like the most reasonable objections.

Mike
 
John, thank you for posting your critique of the study--while I was working on this subject earlier, I was trying to remember who the THR member was that was capable of providing an intelligent critique of the study itself...and when I got back from the range, voila! you had appeared.

Is there a book you might recommend for those of us inclined to tackle this sort of study? My statistics study was forty years ago, and my own work on theses design certainly didn't break any new ground.

Jim H.
 
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I read the original article and it appears there is some verbal sleight of hand going on here. Since most colleges prohibit the possession of firearms on campus, those who have firearms on campus are not inclined to obey the law. It tells us nothing about people who would carry on campus if it were legal.

Unsurprisingly, this sub-sample breaks other laws as well. The survey implies that people who do not respect the law tend to break multiple laws. Is this news?
 
Jim, thanks for the kind words. I wish I could have looked a little closer but time is short. As far as a book, the classic reference for the kind of analysis you tend to see in these papers is Fleiss et al, "Statistical Methods for Rates and Proportions", published by Wiley and now in 3rd edition. There are many others of course. Maybe "Common Errors in Statistics and How to Avoid Them" by Good & Harden (2006, Jossey-Bass). For surveys, see Groves' "Survey Errors and Survey Costs (Groves, 2004, Jossey-Bass) or "Survey Methodology" (Groves et al, 2004, Jossey-Bass). But most of the issues that come up with this particular set of authors can be seen as much from common sense as by statistical / methodological gymnastics. These are all expensive but might be available in a university library.

Macadore, the article notes that 86% of self reported gun owners lived off campus, meaning that 14% (60 individuals) lived on campus and were most likely violating some rule by having a gun there. Or they had their guns at some other location but answered the question anyway ("Do you have a 'working firearm' , defined as a gun, including pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun, with you at college?"). "With you at college" is not very specific, so I wouldn't assume that all those individuals have guns in traditional dorm rooms. As to your second comment, I think that is the most important problem for interpreting the results of Miller et al. Unfortunately details like this tend to be overlooked when the apparent results are repeated by policy advocates (and sometimes even by unbiased researchers).
 
"They are ... kids trying to find their way being led by old hippies"

Sorry to say, this is mostly true. If they aren't hippies they are "anti-gun" or anti-self defense, anti-military, etc. I'll repeat once again because type can confuse. MOST OF THE TIME, there are notable exceptions!

I LEFT college because of this.

Cool part is, I still make as much (more in some cases) as my friends with degrees.

p.s. I do not do manual labor except for martial arts :D
 
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gotta love statistics. How about this one.

Birth is the leading cause of death on this planet. Countless undisputed studies show that 99.999%* of all living beings that were ever born are either dead, or will die.

*see "lazarus"
 
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