Your opinions on the G3 platform and rifles

[Willie Sutton]

^^ I'm not sure, but Tappans writeups on the HK-91 is what got me interested in them. He was an advocate for the 91 and I'm sure that The Colonel and he were in close contact. Tappan popularized the HK for it's reliability and accuracy, and we all ran to buy them. Jeff apparently was interested enough in the HK-rage that he bought one too, probably to see what all the fuss was about. Nobody else that I knew could shoot the A3 very well, but Cooper liked it and I remember him with it at Gunsite with it. He was a large caliber rifle guy, as you know, and selections were limited.

Let's frame 1979 for those who weren't around then:

.45's were built by Colt, Colt, Colt, and and Colt. Series 70 Government, Gold Cup, Commander, and Lightweight Commander. No other choices.

There was no such thing as an affordable AK. Interarms was importing the Valmet line in 5.56 and 7.62x39, and they were rare and very expensive.

Double stack 9's were the S&W Model 59 and the Browing HP. Other choices? You jest...

The only AR-15's around were made by Colt, and in 2 flavors: Long and Short . There were no flat-tops around yet. Cooper would never have shot a poodle-shooter at that time (my guess is that were he still alive that his choices would have evolved, but that was then and this is now).

The alternatives to the AR-15 were the AR-180, the HK-93, the Mini-14, the very rare and very expensive Valmet AK, and really nothing else. I liked the AR-180 for the folding stock, but most bought the AR's. There were no aftermarket accessories or replacement uppers sold for them, and it was not uncommon for people to buy a carbine and a rifle and to put the carbine upper on the rifle lower to make a nice little rifle. I still have my pair of Colts circa 1980 bought just for that reason. AR's were "very special" at the time, being fairly rare on the range, and enjoying the immediate post-Vietnam glory. n a 5.56mm rifle nobody bought the HK-93 over the AR-15, which is a shame because in the end the HK-93 is a really nice rifle.

In 7.62mm semi auto battle rifles you basically had a choice between M1a, BM-59, HK-91, and FN-FAL. The FAL at that time was imported by Steyr and cost $2200. The HK-91 cost about $500 by comparison. The M1a was not seen as a serious contender for the "survivalist" due to it's length, and the FAL was SO expensive that it made people cringe. I mean to even dream of owning a FAL was like dreaming of owning a Ferrari. That left the HK-91 as "the" choice. They sold like hotcakes: Full caliber, fairly affordable, absolutely reliable, accurate, and had a fairly good range of accessories (all from K as third party stuff was not available). Based on Tappan's writings I ended up with a HK-91, a scope mount, both tropical and slimline forends, a bipod, port buffer, 4 mags, a chain pull-thru cleaning kit, sling, and an original boxed .22 conversion kit. That was a big and very expensive package for a young guy in his 20's, let me tell you. It was my second rifle after the Universal M-1 Carbine I bought when I was 18.



Today there are many choices, but back then things were very very limited. The HK 91A3 that Jeff had represented the compact version of the bst selling 7.62 rifle of it's time. I'm not at all surprised that he had it, and liked it, bearing in mind the other choices. In a folder 7.62 the only other choice would have been a BM-59 with the Italian folding stock.


Sorry for the history segue, but it might be interesting to some.


Willie

.

 

[barnbwt]

IIRC, there were also SIG AMTs around the same time as BM59s (I've seen old ads with them side by side) but obviously they were pricey and with few takers . The AR180's failing was its looks, which made the AK look like a finely crafted machine and the G3 an ornate masterpiece by comparison.

Were AR70's ever around in them days? Also, anyone else laughing inwardly about HK's preeminence in those days being due to them being the 'budget choice' of import rifles? I just think it's funny the Tactical Pedersoli Corporation got its start selling Hi Points . I knew the G3's were the cheaper option for governments, but did not know that carried over to the States as well.

Thanks for the history lesson, Willie

TCB

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ There were always arcania around: SIG AMT's, Dutch made AR-10 parts sets assembled on US` lowers (have one), etc. I can't remember when the Beretta AR70's were on the rack, I remember them but can't place the exact timeframe. I'm thinking a little later, early 80's likely.


Yup, the choice for the frugal Survivalist then was a Mini-14 or a HK-91. If you bought an AR-15 you were upscale. If you bought a M1a you were a DCM shooter. If you bought a FAL you were wealthy, and SIG AMT's were known about but never seen. HK 91's were the poor mans .308 rifle.

Not too long after this the very first MAADI AKM's became available soon followed the NORINCO AK's. Bought a MAADI to have a stamped example and a NORINCO to have a comparative milled rifle. These were cheap too, nobody wanted to pay what you would pay for a Colt AR-15 for any AK.

The next rifles to come to market after the lineup above were the AUG and the Galil. I bought one of each.

Somewhat later on in history we "early black rifle collectors" were appalled at the later marketing of cheap FAL copies. Springfield started it with their T-48. The few of us who had paid oput our $2200 for the best toy on the range were a little bemused to find them in the hands of those "lesser of wallet". By that time I was a dedicated FAL guy and had not only an original Belgian FAL but I had managed to get one of the only real factory inch pattern FAL's, an original semi auto Lithgow built L1A1(A) from Australia. I think there were 25 imported. Still have both. To this day I don't recognize parts-set FAL's as their equal.

Sold the HK though as soon as "better" battle rifles were available.... it's the only one of my early collection that I sold. just sayin'.

The funny thing is that bck then we all ignored the HK93, and now I've fallen in love with it in the guise of the C93, both as a rifle and as a SBR converted from the C93 pistol.


I'm glad my black-rifle collecting urge came before the first ban. The early preban "full featured" rifles have appreciated beyond my dreams. Have a safe full.



Willie

.

 

[kimberkid]

I must be a little different.

In 308, my preference goes to the AR-10 first, probably as it's design is what I've become most comfortable with over the years. I own a Stoner SR-25, DPMS-LR308 stainless fluted and a SiG M17 DMR.

My 2nd choice is the HK ... Of which I own several also, both genuine and clones. I find nothing wrong with the ergo's, they fit me fine ... the biggest issue I have with HK is accessories are expensive and limited, but that being said, over the last 30 years or so I've accumulated about every one that I've wanted. I also like the fact that besides the AR, they cover all the caliber's I care about in the same pattern. IMHO, the factory bi-pod looks nice fits well and because it doesn't contact the barrel (the HK barrel is free floated) is a good design, but it's too tall unless your shooting prone ... from the bench you practically need a bar stool to use it ... I put a stud on the hand guard and use a Harris style BR bi-pod.
As others have commented I too have a fondness of the HK 93, and have had several of them. I shoot my V-93 built from an excellent parts kit because of the 1-7 twist over the 1-12 the genuine 93 has, but lately I've been shooting my C93 Pistol (SBR'd) even over the V-93 ... but I really need to do something about the horrible finish!

After that my preferences fall off quickly ...

I have an M1A but don't remember the last time I shot it ... the only reason I have it is because it was built by a good friend for me. It's not a safe queen, it just doesn't fit as well and as with most conventional type stocks I don't care for my hand position, I prefer the pistol grip ... and as to recoil I really don't see any difference between it and the HK ... but the AR-10 is smoother.

The FAL; although I've owned a couple it's been years and they are my least favorite and I'd rather spend my dollars on other things ... I can't put my finger on it but there's nothing about them I like except the adjustable gas system; they are front heavy, the stock doesn't fit me and the pistol grip has an odd angle ... but that's me.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Love the HK-91. For optics, I use those HK detachable claw mounts. Sometimes you can get them cheap. It's better than the $350 1980s price.

I hated the triangular "jungle" handguard. The slimmer one made it more ergonomic. The triangular one has to have the HK bipod ($109 or so back in the 1980s).

As for slings, I like the HK web sling.

 

[Tirod]

Paid $140 for my first HK91, sold it and bought another for $180. I put the slim line Euro handguard on it, and never found cheap mags to bother with. It came with one aluminum mag and that's all I used deer hunting.

The first scope mount I could find was a piece of square C channel which slid onto the grooves in the upper around the action spring tube and tightened with socket head bolts. The second was an ARMS replica of the HK claw mount for about $100 - compared to the HK at $250 up, more than I paid for the gun. I topped it off with a first gen Aimpoint which had no erector tower, elevation and windage were screws in the base which zeroed it.

It was fast and quick on deer - recoil was a bit much, but follow up shots were much faster if needed, you didn't need to break cheek weld to cycle a semi auto action.

I went to the first Soldier of Fortune convention and saw the 3 gun match, there were a lot of M1A's and HK's there.. Some attempted to skirt the rule of the day and had AR's with .30 cal barrels and 5.56 necked up to take .30 bullets - they weren't let into competition. .300 BO? Not that new, guys.

Excerpt from The Complete Guide to 3 Gun Competition, by Chad Adams: http://books.google.com/books?id=r4... of Fortune convention, chapman range&f=false

When you did see an civilian M16 those days it was always some older rugged guy and he kept it in a M60 barrel bag broken down. I used a cover off a M1917 to fit the HK, tight squeeze.

Everybody in those days knew they were all full auto and called them "machine guns." Nobody called the cops or did anything about tho, except to say "Cool!"

 

[AlexanderA]

I have a PTR-91, an FAL, and an M1A, and I agree with the other posters above that the PTR-91 is the worst of the bunch. The G3 system was adopted by all those countries internationally because of economic and political reasons, not because it was inherently better.

 

[barnbwt]

Well, low cost has a way of making things seem desirable (paradoxically, so does a high price )

TCB

 

[dvdcrr]

I wanted to add that the enhanced heavy buffer and hk heavy rubber pad do make a noticeable difference in recoil. Glad I installed them! I really like the G3. I like the sights, the reliability, the way it feels, the accuracy.

 

[splithoof]

Wil!ie;

Thanx for the history reminder….oh, those were interesting times indeed!
Remember the SIG PE-57? Mine is in 7.5 Swiss, something harder to find these days. Back in 1982, a neighbor passed away; his family left me an old VW, and everything in it, including the near-new PE-57! Because the family was from England they detested guns, and were glad to be rid of it. I have no idea what it is worth now, but it makes for an interesting conversation piece.

 

[barnbwt]

Seriously? An original import PE57 is worth well over $10K these days. You, sir, are sitting on a fortune.

I built mine from a demilled STGW57 parts kit (also in 7.5Swiss). Very nice shooting rifles, very heavy, unbelievably large ergonomics. Currently working on a 63rnd DPM drum mod conversion for it (almost ready for testing). You would not believe what a pain in the ass they are to put together and weld (so much a look at it wrong, and that sheet metal receiver would warp and bind up the bolt until the very last weld was in)

TCB

 

[splithoof]

^^^Wow!…I didn't know it might be worth that much….The magazines (5) hold I believe 23-24 rounds, and seem very heavy, as does the whole rifle. The cocking handle is weird, and there is a lever that doubles as what I've been told was for firing with gloves on. Never tried that part, but as I recall in the forty or so rounds through it it was reliable. The stock is wood, and the for end is kind of short. The stock has a neat little lever that allows the whole thing to twist off. It locks up solid, and the whole rifle seems to be much more precise than my old 91-A3. The sights flip up also. Don't know much about optics for this rifle, but I'm inclined to leave it as is, now that it might be worth something. Perhaps this will help get my daughter through college as she approaches her last year

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Arcania defined. They were so heavy and clunky and expensive when available that nobody but nobody bought them. Thus their present rarity. Good grab for you!


Willie

.

 

[Fatelvis]

I think these have the fluted chambers, correct? If so, they make some ugly reloads, if you do reload.

 

[splithoof]

^^^Fluted chambers pose no issue for reloading in my experience. I use a RCBS small base die, and trim the cases on the initial loading. The HK-91 I have loaded for has no problems with reloaded cases, even after 4-5 loadings. It seems to prefer soft-point 150 grain bullets, at modest velocities. That's good, because those are cheap in bulk. A port buffer on the HK really helps to reduce that ugly dent on the case body, but is not mandatory.
Brass recovered from the HK-91 when properly sized can be used in other rifles with no issue as well. Ditto steel cases.
I have never loaded for the PE-57, and have no plans to start, as I have no plans to ever use it again. Now learning that it is worth something, I would rather keep it as is, and sell it later.

 

[kimberkid]

Ditto, I've never had any trouble reloading them either ... plus they are easy to identify

 

[barnbwt]

Thread Detour Through the Swiss Alps...

The STGW/PE57 has its own foibles as far as reloading. The chambers have a double shoulder which swages the feeding round a bit at the corners as the bolt slams home, cushioning the lockup and forcing the rollers outward into their recesses. It's what they did instead of HK's obnoxious tensioned bolt (and it is, too, obnoxious, if you ever get one to snap down outside the rifle).

I was actually inspired by this thread to take the Ubermensch (STGW) out shooting, today. My DTM drum mod does not yet work but the rifle chugged through a mag and a half of GP11 no problem (and is now totally nasty inside).

BTW, those mags are each worth the better part of 100$. Wood stocks almost sounds more like an AMT, though (but they were imported/sold in a number of configurations).

The magazines (5) hold I believe 23-24 rounds, and seem very heavy, as does the whole rifle.

Considering they have more volume than BAR magazines, the aluminum box mags are very light (but still more robust than G3 mags, true). Mainly, they're gigantic. Everything about the gun screams 8ft tall Swiss Giant Superhuman. These guns were toted by guys on bikes up and down the Alps all day --along with ~100lbs of other gear and a damn panzerschrek bazooka . The STGW57 is arguably the most expensive main arm ever fielded in quantity, but hilariously enough, run 300$ or so on the Swiss milsurp market, these days, and are commonly modded over there like ARs are here.

SBR STGW57


And here's your scope mount (goes on over the irons )

The one thing the Swiss wussed out on was the selector lever (not that its super easy); the German (and especially Spanish CETME) one is way harder to operate. Never, ever challenge a European former/serviceman to thumb wrestle. He will literally break you with his selector thumb.

TCB

 

[splithoof]

One of the features I like about the HK-91 is the cocking handle on the left side; the magazine release os OK, but some I have seen with a paddle-type that looked better for proper magazine changes, ala M-14.
A couple of years ago my good friend brought his new wife over for introductions; being that she was from Switzerland I hefted the PE-57 out of storage. The beautiful young lady remarked that her father taught her how to use one some years back, and that he also owned several very similar examples that could be shot full-auto.
Perhaps we could trade it for a batch of coo-coo clocks.

 

[dvdcrr]

Semi auto rapid fire with the ptr is very fast and controllable, even without a comp/ brake. 5 shots in under 0.8 seconds, feels very controlled. With 147 gr. Surplus no less! I believe it to be the most inherently fast shooting 308 I own.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Back around 1985 or so, I decided on one of 3 rifles, all Springfield Armory. An M1A, an SAR-48, or an SAR-3, though I had yet to find and handle an SAR-3. Ended up with an SAR-48HB and have never been sorry, as it's to this day my favorite rifle. Extremely accurate, soft shooting, a dream. And I still have yet to see an SAR-3, and question whether Springfield ever even made them.

 

[Joe Demko]

I had one of the early PTR-91's with the medium weight barrel and polygonal rifling. It worked well enough with the match grade ammo the maker recommended, and that was all I ever fed it. It was less interesting to me than my Savage 99. I sold it fairly soon after I bought it to a fellow member here, or maybe it was at TFL. In any case, I don't miss it and have had other rifles since that were way more fun. My Romanian PSL, for example, is much more amusing.

 

[bozzman3]

I love battle rifles.My PTR91 will always have a place among its peers.I find the PTR lots of fun to shoot.It throws brass into orbit!!People at the range stare at the brass flying away!It kicks and barks hard,and is very accurate for a battle rifle!Its just a good old time and puts a smile on anybodys face that shoots it!

 

[AmEngRifles]

Dear DVD,

I have both the PTR and the Springfield SAR8. I find there is no significant difference between them. I think they both compare very favorably to the HK product.

High water and Low rise bridge, let the flogging begin, for I have disrespected the uber-rifle maker, HK. :-/

 

[Slamfire]

In terms of 308 battle rifles, I prefer my M1a overall, the FAL next, then my PTR 91. Don’t own a AR10 (yet).

I tried 174 grain bullets in my PTR 91, it did not like them. It kicked less and functioned well with 150 grain bullets. I am of the opinion that you want faster powders, say IMR 3031 through IMR 4895, than slower in this action. I would not use a powder as slow as IMR 4064 or Varget.

Always keep the flutes clean as this action relies on gas lubrication to break the friction between case and chamber and if they get clogged up, the mechanism will not function.



Those flutes made this action possible and flutes really improved the delayed blowback action. Prior to WW2 there were a number of fielded delayed blowback actions, but they required oilers. Greased rounds and oilers were messy. This is what future General J. S. Hatcher had to say on this:

Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC. Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933

Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..


There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

Blish Principle….There is no doubt that this mechanism can be made to operate as described, provided the cartridge are lubricated, …. That this type of mechanism actually opens while there is still considerable pressure in the cartridge case is evident from the fact that the gun does not operate satisfactorily unless the cartridges are lubricated.

Thompson Sub-Machine Gun: … Owing to the low pressure involved in the pistol cartridge, it is not necessary to lubricate the case.

This is a Japanese Nambu light machine gun and that is an oiler under that screw cap. Oilers and greased rounds went on the ash heap of history after chamber flutes replaced them, in fact, it has been so long that these things have been out of inventory, that the American shooting public pretty much denies they ever existed in the first place. You will constantly hear the refrain: "case friction is necessary to reduce bolt loading", this is false, and if you increase case to chamber friction in a roller bolt, the mechanism will jam.






I am in awe of the clever engineering that went into the HK91 series of roller bolts. Vorgrimler is not the inventor of the “half locked” or “semi rigid” bolt, but the successful development of the rifle is dependent on him and his technical team. This rifle is simple to build, I have heard number in the magnitude of 7 hours of touch labor to make (a unbelievably low number), it is simple to operate, easy to maintain. Niceties that American civilians want are not in the service rifle because the military utility was not offset by the cost. This is a military rifle designed to be produced quickly, in massive quantities, to be issued to conscripted cannon fodder who have zero marksmanship skills, and it is reliable and simple to maintain. That is an achievement that is not easy to do.

Of the 308 battle rifles out there, the HK series is the only one I still see still being issued as a general purpose rifle. These may be Mexican or Pakistani, but all the others are out of service. The number of M14’s in service is tiny and I heard those deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan were destroyed in country instead of being sent back, which makes the number in US inventory even less.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Excellent analysis. Kudus for posting it.

Willie

.