By all written accounts the British .380 cartridge with a 200 grain lead bullet was a proven MANSTOPPER and was a good replacement for the .455 Webley caliber. Soooo, how would the 200 grain bullet be in a S&W Special case fired in a short barreled Model 36? At worst you might end up with 100 MORE feet per second out of the 2 inch barrel...a magnum manstopper?
The British .380/200 or S&W 200 grain Manstopper
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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By all written accounts the British .380 cartridge with a 200 grain lead bullet was a proven MANSTOPPER
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But what they don't tell you is the man who got stopped was the man with the .380.
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By all written accounts the British .380 cartridge with a 200 grain lead bullet was a proven MANSTOPPER
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But what they don't tell you is the man who got stopped was the man with the .380.
During the 1930's a lead 200 grain bullet with a round but somewhat blunt nose was loaded in both the .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special cartridges. At the time it was reputed to be a better "manstopper" then the regular 146 grain (.38 S&W) and 158 grain (.38 Special) bullets - mostly because of the heavier bullet's blunter nose. But that said, larger cartridges of the day, such as the .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP were regarded as better "stoppers" then any .38 - other then the .357 Magnum when it was introduced in 1935. The advantage of the .38 S&W was that it was available in compact revolvers, such as S&W's 38 Regulation Police and Terrier models, and Colt's Police Positive. The obvious disadvantage was the low velocity both offered.
Mike Irwin
Member
The British didn't use that 200-gr. bullet for very long. It was against the Hague Accords, so they ended up adopting a 180 something grain bullet that was jacketed.
I used to believe that too
There has been quite a bit of discussion about the .38/200 load in the reloading section at the S&W forum. One poster in particular, 3/4 Flap, has done fairly extensive testing by harvesting sheep and goats that he raises. Just recently he killed a 50 pound goat with a side chest shot that broke the far shoulder. The goat ran off, limping a bit, but took 2 & 1/2 minutes to die. This was no surprise to him since he has used the load before.
Also of note is that .45 ball doesn't really perform any better for him than 125 gr. .38 ball, to the point where you basically wouldn't know which load you used on the animal.
Someone on that forum a while back quoted a reference by General Hatcher in his famous book on the use of this load and its instantly stopping a fleeing felon. Someone asked wouldn't it be interesting if the whole .38/200 stopping reputation was due to this anecdote in a well read and well respected source?
There has been quite a bit of discussion about the .38/200 load in the reloading section at the S&W forum. One poster in particular, 3/4 Flap, has done fairly extensive testing by harvesting sheep and goats that he raises. Just recently he killed a 50 pound goat with a side chest shot that broke the far shoulder. The goat ran off, limping a bit, but took 2 & 1/2 minutes to die. This was no surprise to him since he has used the load before.
Also of note is that .45 ball doesn't really perform any better for him than 125 gr. .38 ball, to the point where you basically wouldn't know which load you used on the animal.
Someone on that forum a while back quoted a reference by General Hatcher in his famous book on the use of this load and its instantly stopping a fleeing felon. Someone asked wouldn't it be interesting if the whole .38/200 stopping reputation was due to this anecdote in a well read and well respected source?
BluesBear
member
Around 1975 Digest Books Inc published the "Law Enforcement Handgun Digest".
In it was an article comparing the effectiveness of handgun rounds of the day vs automobiles. The 200gr Winchester .38 Special "Super Police" cartridge was fired from a 2" S&W and it bounced off the drivers door window glass, prompting one of those present to exclaim "Halt or I'll scratch your paint!"
IIRC the published velocities back then were in the 600-700fps range from a non-vented 6" test barrel. I fored some from my 2" S&W model 49 and on a sunny day you could actually SEE the bullet in flight. With my old Nikon uding a shutter speed of 1/250 you coud freeze the bullet in flight with no problem.
In it was an article comparing the effectiveness of handgun rounds of the day vs automobiles. The 200gr Winchester .38 Special "Super Police" cartridge was fired from a 2" S&W and it bounced off the drivers door window glass, prompting one of those present to exclaim "Halt or I'll scratch your paint!"
IIRC the published velocities back then were in the 600-700fps range from a non-vented 6" test barrel. I fored some from my 2" S&W model 49 and on a sunny day you could actually SEE the bullet in flight. With my old Nikon uding a shutter speed of 1/250 you coud freeze the bullet in flight with no problem.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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For a while the British had the concept of "dwell time", where they felt that the longer it took for a bullet to traverse the body, the more time it had to transfer energy to the target, so a low velocity wasn't seen as a disadvantage.
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Physics was obviously not their strong suite.
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For a while the British had the concept of "dwell time", where they felt that the longer it took for a bullet to traverse the body, the more time it had to transfer energy to the target, so a low velocity wasn't seen as a disadvantage.
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Physics was obviously not their strong suite.
Mike Irwin
Member
"Physics was obviously not their strong suite."
Yeah, well, they had an empire to run...
Yeah, well, they had an empire to run...
Deaf Smith
Member
The Brit. 200 gr. .38 S&W load was simply a way to rationalize a small lighter weight .38 over the heavy .455.
Dave Arnold, of G&A, who was a South African policeman before coming to America, wrote how once a policeman was shot with the .38 S&W 'manstopper' 200 gr load from a nother policemans gun and his greatcoat stopped the slug! He also said the bulllet would bouce off trees.
As for dwell time, this has to do some sort of 'energy dump' theory. The longer time (we are talking about .034 seconds difference in times) supposely would cause more shock. I really don't know how they tested this as I have never read of the Brits. doing any kind of test on animals or caviders or just anything to check this out. As I said, it was more of an excuse to rationalize the smaller gun and lighter ammo (read cheeper gun and cheeper ammo.)
The FMJ 180 grain load was indeed substitued for the 200 grain lead load. It was even worse. Now maybe, just maybe the 200 grain load might tumble, and thus create a larger wound (presuming it got through clothing), but the 180 grain load, being shorter, was more stable and thus no tumbling.
While I'm no fan if FMJ, if I had to pick that then the gun would be .40 at the least, and more like .45 (unless any of you know of a .50 ACP round out there for the 1911.)
Come to think about it, I wish Glock had just made their round a .50 GAP, and not a .45. I would pick that gun up in a flash.
Dave Arnold, of G&A, who was a South African policeman before coming to America, wrote how once a policeman was shot with the .38 S&W 'manstopper' 200 gr load from a nother policemans gun and his greatcoat stopped the slug! He also said the bulllet would bouce off trees.
As for dwell time, this has to do some sort of 'energy dump' theory. The longer time (we are talking about .034 seconds difference in times) supposely would cause more shock. I really don't know how they tested this as I have never read of the Brits. doing any kind of test on animals or caviders or just anything to check this out. As I said, it was more of an excuse to rationalize the smaller gun and lighter ammo (read cheeper gun and cheeper ammo.)
The FMJ 180 grain load was indeed substitued for the 200 grain lead load. It was even worse. Now maybe, just maybe the 200 grain load might tumble, and thus create a larger wound (presuming it got through clothing), but the 180 grain load, being shorter, was more stable and thus no tumbling.
While I'm no fan if FMJ, if I had to pick that then the gun would be .40 at the least, and more like .45 (unless any of you know of a .50 ACP round out there for the 1911.)
Come to think about it, I wish Glock had just made their round a .50 GAP, and not a .45. I would pick that gun up in a flash.
PCRCCW
Member
Shoot well.
Manstopper Loads?
The British had a specific loading in the 38/200 and the 455's for these. The bullets were swaged and looked like a wadcutter with a hollow base and a hollow nose as large as the hollow base. These both had a specific load designation and were very deadly, so much so that they were basically outlawed. Remaining supplies were shot in practice. All this happened I believe in the early 1900's.
You would not like to get hit with either of these loads. I have tried like loads in these calibers. Can you say "Immediate energy dump".
The British had a specific loading in the 38/200 and the 455's for these. The bullets were swaged and looked like a wadcutter with a hollow base and a hollow nose as large as the hollow base. These both had a specific load designation and were very deadly, so much so that they were basically outlawed. Remaining supplies were shot in practice. All this happened I believe in the early 1900's.
You would not like to get hit with either of these loads. I have tried like loads in these calibers. Can you say "Immediate energy dump".
Mike Irwin
Member
I thought that the Webley Man Stopper bullets were developed in Britain.
Dum Dums, I thought, were rifle bullets.
Dum Dums, I thought, were rifle bullets.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Davis developed soft nose bullets at Dum Dum arsenal in India. Originally, the .303 bullet was made by forming a drawn cup of jacket metal, putting a lead wire inside, and putting a jacket metal disk over the top. The whole thing was put into a die, which formed the nose of the bullet from the base of the cup, leaving the disk at the base of the bullet.
Davis made the jacket shorter, kept the lead wire the same, did away with the disk, and put the bullet into the die "backwards" -- so now the open end of the jacket became the nose (with exposed lead) and the base of the cup became the base of the bullet.
The "Dum Dum" bullet was never officially adopted by the British Army -- instead, they adopted a hollowpoint (developed, as I recall, at Woolwich.)
The Manstopper, being a hollow point pistol bullet, sprang from that source.
Davis made the jacket shorter, kept the lead wire the same, did away with the disk, and put the bullet into the die "backwards" -- so now the open end of the jacket became the nose (with exposed lead) and the base of the cup became the base of the bullet.
The "Dum Dum" bullet was never officially adopted by the British Army -- instead, they adopted a hollowpoint (developed, as I recall, at Woolwich.)
The Manstopper, being a hollow point pistol bullet, sprang from that source.
The British were pleased with the performance of the .380/200 load. NO British authority has ever claimed the load didn't perform as designed (tumble). Even Elmer Keith agreed that the load was effective. It went thru a live fire test (6 years)in WW2 without complaint and that was with the 180 FMJ load not some illegal dum-dum design. It did tumble and it was an effective manstopper.
Tamara
Senior Member
I just enjoyed the comment by the British WWII NCO who described the DAO .380/200 Enfield as "Too inaccurate to make a good pistol and too light to make a good club."
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