GBExpat
Member
Well, DUH!
Someone in this Thread has suggested/stated that retrieving a rifle from their vehicle and returning would be an appropriate response? If so, I missed it.
In Light of the Recent Shootings....
- Thread starter Armored farmer
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Someone in this Thread has suggested/stated that retrieving a rifle from their vehicle and returning would be an appropriate response? If so, I missed it.
Sorry, but no, I am not Gecko45.
Sunray
Member
What or how you carry would not have made the slightest difference during any of 'em.
"...civilian use of suppressive fire..." Absolutely not. Suppressive fire is a PBI combat technique using unaimed fire sent in the general direction of the other side. Usually with an automatic weapon with the express purpose of keeping the other die's heads down while your side maneuvers. Untrained, uncoordinated civilians would be shooting each other and by-standers.
The criminal in Vegas was nearly 500 yards away and 32 stories up. No handgun would have mattered or changed anything.
"...civilian use of suppressive fire..." Absolutely not. Suppressive fire is a PBI combat technique using unaimed fire sent in the general direction of the other side. Usually with an automatic weapon with the express purpose of keeping the other die's heads down while your side maneuvers. Untrained, uncoordinated civilians would be shooting each other and by-standers.
The criminal in Vegas was nearly 500 yards away and 32 stories up. No handgun would have mattered or changed anything.
Please do not be so close minded, it is not about castration in as much as the pelvic region has now become your new center mass, especially if the active shooter is wearing an armored vest. In my opinion. You have a better chance of hitting the pelvic region than the head.
The pelvic region contains the left and right iliac arteries and vena cava as well, which if you are lucky and hit one of them the individual exsanguinates within a minute or two. If you hit center mass depending how high in the pelvic region and how long the vest is you might hit the abdominal aorta or the vena cava, if low you hit the bladder, if even lower which this is the most difficult part because people like this have very small testicals and penis, than you have achieved a miracle castration...just saying.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, bingo. The odds of ending up being in a place at the moment where a) a mass shooter is going to open up, b) you're in a position to do anything aggressive toward him, c) you can be and are legally armed with some weapon effective at the actual distance which separates you, d) you don't have more pressing things you should be doing in regards to getting your loved ones out of the fire zone, e) etc. -- are extremely low.
Far, far lower than the already very low odds that you as a law-abiding citizen living, working, etc. where you, personally, live and work will be violently attacked in a robbery or other run of the mill assault.
If I go to the mall, or out to eat, or to a concert, I don't carry a fire extinguisher, AED, personal flotation vest, parachute, a hard hat/helmet, or any number of other protective and preventive items which could save my life in situations I realize could happen to me at about the same rates of likelihood -- or much greater likelihood -- as meeting a mass shooter.
As spectacular and shocking as these thing are they simply do not represent a real increased risk factor.
Varminterror
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I was referring to the implied reality following the mindset in which MULTIPLE RESPONDENTS ABOVE have stated they're considering keeping an AR/AK/M1Carbine in their vehicle, using the example in this particular thread, a guy sitting in church, a gunman kicking in the door. As is often said, a gun in the truck doesn't do you any good when you're not in the truck, so the implication for the majority of these scenarios invalidates the proposition of extra weapons or extra ammo stored in the vehicle. Whether you find yourself leaving danger, accessing the weapon, then returning, or noticing danger from a safe position and subsequently inserting yourself into said danger, the premise behind a vehicle-stored firearm is dodgy at best. Many folks like to think, myself included, we'll step up and play hero if we ever see evil unfolding, but really, there's an assumption of liability and potential for increased disruption through bystander interference.
What's the plan here for all of these respondents above, copied here below, in keeping a weapon or ammunition off-person in the vehicle? Outside of the select scenario where they are attacked while occupying the vehicle, the implication is they intend to leave security and enter themselves into the dangerous situation which they were not otherwise involved:
OP
OP
Armored farmer
Member
If only we could convince these suicidal cowards to do the suicide part first and leave the rest of alone.
Varminterror
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Said by me, a cynical, pessimistic, conservative libertarian, NOT a liberal surrealist...
If only we could help connect our communities better again to support individuals in mental crisis and prevent them from reaching a point of destructive behavior, suicidal, homicidal, or otherwise.
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I carry while in the car. As I have a daughter to drop off at, and pick up from, school, and occasionally have to make various stops, doing so allows me to have a pistol on me during those times. While I'm in my GFZ of an office, I keep an Executive Letter Opener at hand and, yes, I do open letters with it. It's not a great plan, but it's all I can do without either breaking the law or losing my job, or both.
OP
OP
Armored farmer
Member
Speaking only for myself:
A weapon at home does little good if I'm not home. I am away from the house for 10 hours at least daily. The truck is usually nearby.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
We have had that discussion before, more than once. Not to say it isn't valuable, but for various reasons it tends to get a little heated.
One answer is perpetually, "Because I CAN!" Which is all fine and good, but obviously only dodging the question. "I CAN" is not a plan of action or even a hint at the foundations of one.
Another common response is, "Well if it isn't there I don't have it at all, and if it is there I might be able to do something..." Which, again, isn't a plan or even a general guiding principle of action.
I've been the skeptic in a lot of these threads on "truck rifles" or "trunk rifles" and I've really annoyed some people, which is unfortunate. The fact remains that I've never been given a seriously realistic scenario that made me think, "Yeah, I'd go get a rifle out of the trunk of my car..."
Varminterror
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@Sam1911, I've seen such "truck gun" threads, so I apologize my question was too thinly veiled as rhetorical.
My position is obvious, and your statement, "I've never been given a seriously realistic scenario that made me think, 'yeah, I'd go get a rifle out of the trunk of my car...'" is exactly my experience. If you're away from the threat, actions moving you back towards it aren't defensive. They're offensive. Plenty of legal precedence to that fact. I'll honestly be surprised if we don't see something to that end come out of Texas - either upholding standing precedence, or over-turning and setting a new one.
My position is obvious, and your statement, "I've never been given a seriously realistic scenario that made me think, 'yeah, I'd go get a rifle out of the trunk of my car...'" is exactly my experience. If you're away from the threat, actions moving you back towards it aren't defensive. They're offensive. Plenty of legal precedence to that fact. I'll honestly be surprised if we don't see something to that end come out of Texas - either upholding standing precedence, or over-turning and setting a new one.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I'm not deaf to the idea of someone coming to the rescue of others. Or even, with serious caveats, of a citizen apprehending/halting an mass murderer leaving the scene. As intensely risky and both physically and legally problematic as those ideas are, I'm not willing to simply poo-poo them.
But I look at it this way: Every couple of years a jet engine (or some other major part) falls off a plane and smashes some houses. (Ontario, Brazil, Greenland...there've been quite a few.) It DOES happen. But I'm not going to change anything about my life because of that -- not what I wear, what I carry, what material I build my home out of -- and I'm not going to go out of my way to prepare myself to face it.
I've got a long list of other things I should be spending my time preparing for. Falling jet engines and mass shooters aren't really in the visible end of that list.
I'll go about with my sidearm, when and where I can lawfully carry it, and will have to make do with that if my unlucky lottery day ever comes up.
But I look at it this way: Every couple of years a jet engine (or some other major part) falls off a plane and smashes some houses. (Ontario, Brazil, Greenland...there've been quite a few.) It DOES happen. But I'm not going to change anything about my life because of that -- not what I wear, what I carry, what material I build my home out of -- and I'm not going to go out of my way to prepare myself to face it.
I've got a long list of other things I should be spending my time preparing for. Falling jet engines and mass shooters aren't really in the visible end of that list.
I'll go about with my sidearm, when and where I can lawfully carry it, and will have to make do with that if my unlucky lottery day ever comes up.
danez71
Member
Agreed.
In regards to the bolded part...
What I do perceive to be an increase in risk is the truck factor since that is a new fad sweeping the nation.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Eh?
danez71
Member
Nut jobs running down people on purpose with trucks was more rare than it is now; my perception.
But that doesn't impact what or when I carry.
However, I have taken that more into consideration for my situational awareness.
Rocketmedic
Member
I live in Houston and work around 20 miles from my home. If I get stranded by whatever in another part of the city, I've got seven rounds on board and a spare six, which ought to be more than enough to resolve any one situation...but if I'm stranded away from home I could definitely see a box of 380ACP tucked away being an asset. Plus, it's not that big a deal if the car or ammo gets stolen, as opposed to the gun.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Ahhh. While that gets us to a different current news story, I'll make the following aside:
Just for a quick head-check, foreign-born terrorists have killed something around 3,030 US Citizens since 1975. Including the events of 9/11.
That's about 1/3 the number of citizens as have died strangling to death in their own bedsheets and pillowcases.
And in a nation with a current population of 323,100,000, ... it's probably wise not to get too awful alarmed at apparent rising trends in any such events.
Just for a quick head-check, foreign-born terrorists have killed something around 3,030 US Citizens since 1975. Including the events of 9/11.
That's about 1/3 the number of citizens as have died strangling to death in their own bedsheets and pillowcases.
And in a nation with a current population of 323,100,000, ... it's probably wise not to get too awful alarmed at apparent rising trends in any such events.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Dang, man, you know what you really need is an AR-15!
Think about it, you know you want one...!
bullseye308
Member
As I said, I keep a 33 rounder in the car as a backup mag or a source for more ammo. I carry a 17 round mag in the gun, and a 20 rounder on the belt. Good Lord willing I'll never have to use any of them for real.
Mainly it's like insurance, everyone should have it, and no one wants to use it. But you should have it.
Mainly it's like insurance, everyone should have it, and no one wants to use it. But you should have it.
Creature
Member
Of course mass shootings are very low probability. No one is contending that. The whole idea of carrying is insurance against that low probability. Changing to a higher capacity gun only increases the probability of not running out of bullets as fast... which helps to increase the odds of being able to counter the not insignificant threat in recent years of politically and ideologically motivated shootings by multiple attackers...which, as we have recently seen in Europe, is increasingly becoming the SOP of terrorists and jihadists. Your premise that changing what one carries in light of these changing threats as being flawed is in my opinion rather pompous and arrogant.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, hopefully we can avoid being pompous or arrogant and not offend each other. But is is not legitimate to ask whether or not there's a way to realistically assess risks, odds, and needs?
Of course no one needs feel looked down upon if they just want to carry something bigger/better/higher capacity and/or with longer reach. I mean, sure, you can, go ahead.
But can we not discuss among friends here whether we are under measurable/real increased threat -- or whether we're being reactionary about scares which are so rare as to be unnecessary to react to? And can we not discuss in a friendly, non-judgmental way whether putting a rifle in your trunk and driving around with it every day is preparing you for something you could -- or would, or should -- do?
Ya know, you guys are right. I'm going to throw my fire extinguishers in the trash. Fires are no more a risk than they were decades ago, and we didn't have a fire extinguisher back then so why do we need one now? I think I'll cancel all my insurance policies too, it's just silly. My car doesn't actually need a spare tire either, since tire technology is good today and the risk of a flat is so small. I could use the extra trunk space. Jumper cables? I'm just being paranoid.
GBExpat
Member
"Implied reality" <chuckle> Goodness! You appear to have your Assumption Machine setting stuck on HIGH today.
I can only answer for myself:
I have been thinking about keeping an AR in my vehicle since September 13, 2004 because on that day, the Assault Weapons Ban Sunset, I assembled my first "shorty" AR. It was a Good Day.
Once I discovered how surprisingly accurate are the M1Carbines that I acquired from the CMP in Summer'07, I added them to the list of candidates.
I don't know about the others in the mass of quotes you have provided (you don't either but you appear to be having fun "creating a reality" regarding them) but I would like to also have access to a rifle when I am out&about. I will not speculate regarding situations that could arise in which I might find a need for the rifle over the pistol, but, at a minimum, having it readily available would provide me some comfort.
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