One way people form preferences about guns/caliber...

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JohnKSa

JohnKSa

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Just read a magazine article reviewing an imported 1911 pistol. In it, the author mentioned that a family member had fought in the Philippine Insurrection and had told him stories about how the 1911 was "frequently" used on charging Moros.

Of course, the Philippine Insurrection ended in 1902, 9 years before the initial adoption of the 1911, 10 years before Colt delivered the first order of 1911 pistols to the government. But the author is pretty obviously really talking about the Moro rebellion which extended until June of 1913.

Colt didn't start delivering pistols until the 2nd quarter of 1912, and none of the pistols made it to the Philippines until some time mid 1913--exact dates are not clear.

Some sources indicate that at least some 1911 pistols were used during the 4 day Battle of Bud-Bagsak that ended the Moro Rebellion, but there is nothing official to confirm that and other information suggests that the first shipment could not have arrived in time to be used. At this time it appears that there's no clear answer one way or the other, but it's clear that if they were used, it was only in the final 4 days of fighting.

Anyway, while it's possible (though debatable) that 1911 pistols might have made it to the Philippines in time to actually be used in fighting, and, if that's true, that means a 1911 could have actually been used to shoot a Moro before the end of the rebellion, the idea that it was used "frequently" to shoot charging Moros is clearly not based in fact.

But in spite of the facts, the author of the article is probably a 1911 fan/.45ACP fan for life, and his story will probably convince others.

To be clear, I'm not saying that all people who prefer the 1911 don't know the facts, or that the only way someone could like the .45ACP is if they don't know history. I'm just saying that this is clearly ONE way people form preferences--and that it's not a good way to form them.
 
You Sir, are spot on..
I have a few WWII 1911-A1s and really "love" them. However I'm a history aficionado or the Philippine Insurrection was between 1899, to 1902 and the 1911 is self explanatory.
As the .38 Long Colt was ineffective against the Moros; the Army re-issued the .45 Long Colt in the Colt Single Action Army revolver.



 
JohnKsa

I can remember hearing something way different about the 1911 when I was growing up. Now keep in mind that what I heard (and this was mostly from friends of my Dad who served in WWII), was that it was very unreliable, how the .45 had so much recoil it could knock you down (as well as knock down the guy you were shooting!), was so loose that all you could hear was it rattling whenever you used it, and how terribly inaccurate it was (as in can't hit the broadside of a barn).

All this negative talk about the .45 still didn't dampen my enthusiasm to wanting one though the pickings were mighty slim in terms of finding a new Colt Government Mk.IV/Series 70 when I was old enough to start buying guns. Had to make do with a lot of pre-war .45s that had seen better days. Still I didn't experience too many of the problems that my Dad's friends use to talk about. And of course this was the same time I was subscribing to Guns and Ammo magazine where Col. Jeff Cooper weighed in every month with the all encompassing virtues of the 1911! Talk about forming preferences! This made me a true believer (and I would say I still am), along with friends of mine who espoused the same philosophy as Col. Cooper! I would have to say I have owned more 1911s and their variants (Colt Commanders, Combat Commanders, Officer's Model ACP, and New Agent), than any other handgun.
 
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Most such "histories" generally fail to consider the nature of US forces at the time of adoption. Almost every unit with heavy equipment to move had horses. That was Supply (QMC), Engineers, Medical Corps, Artillery, and the like. And also Mounted infantry and Cavalry.
Mounted Infantry did not get a sidearm, as they were expected to fight dismounted, having rapidly move to contact on horseback. Drover and teamsters would be issued sidearms as they wer more likely to wind up "in contact" while seated, or in situations where getting a carbine into action would be cumbersome.
But, being horse-using troops was thoroughly ingrained.
The .38 and the 9mm as well, were not considered adequate (as in humane) for putting down injured horses (by less-than experienced personnel). And that drove the caliber selection process.

Possibly (only possibly) buoyed up by the success of the .45colt in the PI. Maybe. The War Department had noted that Navy Department personnel had also used .45colt during the (then recent) Spanish-American war, too.
 
The 1911 was the first centerfire pistol I shot. A 1911st feels right in my hand and I shoot it more accurately than any of the other pistols I own. I carried one as a Military Policeman for a number of years and very familiar with the function of the pistol. I had heard the same stories about the recoil and was completely underwhelmed when I first shot one. My brother had a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag and I had heard all the stories about how brutal the recoil was. When I shot it I was again underwhelmed with it and the recoil was nothing like the myths.
 
Many lies are told, intentionally or otherwise, which entice folks to take their first taste of many things. If the taste is sweet, then the opinion is asserted and favor is gained. If the tales are proven to be hype after a direct sampling, then the myths are identified for what they are. The 45-70 killed the buffalo, Colt made all men equal, Weatherbys hit so hard you don’t even have to hit vitals...
 
George Dickel said:
My brother had a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag and I had heard all the stories about how brutal the recoil was. When I shot it I was again underwhelmed with it and the recoil was nothing like the myths.
Click to expand...

To be fair (and I agree .44 mag isn't really that much recoil, though I prefer 10mm and .357 myself) the Blackhawk really does tame the felt recoil with the massive muzzle flip inherant in the design of the SAA clones, or at least that's been my observation between SAA clones and the various DA revolvers I've had in a bunch of calibers over the years.

Come to think of it, all I have left is a few Vaqueros and further wheel guns will be Blackhawks, so I do have some bias.

On the topic I used to work with an old Vietnam vet who was convinced a single shot from a .45 ACP hollow point would leave a "basketball" size exit hole in you because he heard it from a guy he served with way back when.
 
JR24 said:
On the topic I used to work with an old Vietnam vet who was convinced a single shot from a .45 ACP hollow point would leave a "basketball" size exit hole in you because he heard it from a guy he served with way back when.
Click to expand...

However, the issue was FMJ or hardball way back then... ;)

I had a neighbor once who said he was transportation and Recon in Vietnam... I was tempted to ask if he drove his deuce and a half out to the boonies and went out on Recon patrols. What was wrong with him? Without him the war fighters could not have existed.
In Vietnam. there was 7 rear echelon types for every Grunt. I was a Grunt and we could not have existed without the rear echelon types.. In simple terms, the 1 could could have never survived without the 7.
Everyone who served in any capacity needs to stand proud because they served..
 
TikkaShooter said:
However, the issue was FMJ or hardball way back then... ;)

I had a neighbor once who said he was transportation and Recon in Vietnam... I was tempted to ask if he drove his deuce and a half out to the boonies and went out on Recon patrols. What was wrong with him? Without him the war fighters could not have existed.
In Vietnam. there was 7 rear echelon types for every Grunt. I was a Grunt and we could not have existed without the rear echelon types.. In simple terms, the 1 could could have never survived without the 7.
Everyone who served in any capacity needs to stand proud because they served..
Click to expand...

Right, he was amazed at the extra killyness the hollow points offered, of course ball ammo will kill you dead on the first shot, just not so impressively
 
Interesting. My Uncle Al fought in N.Africa, purple heart, and was convinced that the 9mm Parabellum was so powerful it would spin a GI around if hit.
He never spoke about the 1911.
 
I can remember hearing something way different about the 1911 when I was growing up. Now keep in mind that what I heard (and this was mostly from friends of my Dad who served in WWII), was that it was very unreliable, how the .45 had so much recoil (it could knock you down as well as knock down the guy you were shooting!), was so loose that all you could hear was it rattling whenever you used it, and how terribly inaccurate it was (as in can't hit the broadside of a barn).
Click to expand...
To your credit, you did your own research and discovered the truth. Too many people just believe what they are told and never bother trying to find out more.
My brother had a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag and I had heard all the stories about how brutal the recoil was. When I shot it I was again underwhelmed with it and the recoil was nothing like the myths.
Click to expand...
While I was checking the dates and facts for the original post in this thread, I found one source talking about how the recoil of the 1911 could break arms and wrists.

The problem is that a lot of nonsense finds its way into official publications and becomes truth to those who don't know better. Here's a prime example:

https://www.nps.gov/stri/upload/Colt-45-Formatted_2017-03-01.pdf

From the document on page 4 with my edits in red.

The first automatic, magazine-fed pistol adopted by the U.S. Army, the Colt M1911 is a single action, semiautomatic, recoil-operated pistol chambered for the .45 caliber A.C.P. (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge. With the gas of fired cartridges driving back the slide << The gun, as stated, is recoil operated. It is the conservation of momentum/recoil that operates the slide, it is not gas operated.>> to eject the spent cartridge casing, the pistol was self-loading from a box, spring-fed magazine holding seven rounds inserted and locked in the pistol’s handle. Adopted to replace the M1892 .38 caliber Colt Revolver, the Automatic Pistol’s powerful .45 cartridge proved lethal in stopping power against Moro guerillas in the Philippines. <<As explained in the OP, it's unlikely that any 1911 pistols or .45ACP ammunition was ever used against the Moros--there are certainly no official reports of such.>> Designed by John Browning, the Colt Automatic became an iconic pistol of the U.S. military, carried through twentieth century wars until the Baretta <<Beretta>> M9 9mm Pistol was adopted in 1985. Nevertheless, the M1911 is still carried into combat by many American troops as their pistol of choice, in personal preference to the official M9 sidearm. Manufactured in large numbers for service in the trenches of the Great War, the Colt Automatic was supplemented by revolvers for the American Expeditionary Force: the M1917 Colt or Smith and Wesson .45 caliber revolvers chambered for the A.C.P. cartridge loaded in “half moon” metal clips inserted into the pistol cylinders <<The clips were used to hold 3 rounds of ammunition together to facilitate loading and ejection. They weren't "inserted" into the cylinders, whatever that means.>> to ease ejection of fired cartridge casings. Redesigned in 1924 with slight modifications to the original design (most parts interchangeable between the models), the Colt .45 Automatic (M1911A1), was the primary service pistol of the U.S. Army, Navy, and Marines by World War II. Besides the U.S. Armory manufactured pistols, contractors like Colt, Union Switch and Signal, Remington-Rand, and Singer produced Colt Automatics <<Only Colt produced "Colt Automatics", however it is true that a number of other contractors, as well as Springfield Armory produced 1911 and 1911A1 pistols.>> for war service.​
 
The way I formed my preferences...

Growing up all I heard about were the guns and cartridges of WW2. My family had a fine heritage of serving. 30.06 and the 45 Colt were all any man needed...that and a .44 Magnum.

Years later when I was in the Navy it was 7.62x51, .45 ACP and the 12 gauge and a short love affair with an M79 grenade launcher. Training only - no action.

Then I left the Navy and my instilled desire to stick with perfection and what I knew led me right to the 1911 and the .45 ACP for quite a few years. I collected WW2 guns and in my mind there were none better than the Garand and the 1911.

After a while I came to realize there were other guns and cartridges to play with and learn about. I took up Cowboy action shooting.
I moved to North Carolina and gave my daughter my last 1911. I would buy a new one in NC.
Then one day I got invited to an IDPA match and a guy loaned me a Glock 17. Man, what an eye opener. I never did buy that 1911.
I grew to love Cowboy guns, Glocks, S&W revolvers and AR-15s.
I have grown to love the 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, the .45 Colt, the 5.56, the 30-30, the .308 and the 45-70. None of these guns or cartridges were popular in my family.

I guess I broke from tradition.

I was never one to believe the hype that people spewed about guns and ammunition. I was more logical and scientific about my choices in guns and ammo.
 
One thing you hear a lot about 45ACP is about how incredibly powerful it is, and if you do your own backyard range testing, and reloading, you know for a fact this just isn't true. It is effective, almost in the extreme, but actual penetration for the round is just shy of anemic. But 45 ACP has gotten this fearsome reputation.
 
The Insurrection, the Moro rebellion, the Huk before WWII and various other scuffles. There was a rebellion of some sort that the U.S. Army and Philippine Constabulary were putting down from 1899 through full independence.

Throughout the 1920s and 30s the 26th Cavalry (aka the Philippine Scouts) were engaged in "police actions" across the islands hunting "bandits" of one ilk or another. The 1911 was in combat with US troops in the Philippines from whenever they were first issued through 1946 and beyond as US advisors fought Huks again and Communist insurgents through the 1980s.
 
Dibbs said:
One thing you hear a lot about 45ACP is about how incredibly powerful it is, and if you do your own backyard range testing, and reloading, you know for a fact this just isn't true. It is effective, almost in the extreme, but actual penetration for the round is just shy of anemic. But 45 ACP has gotten this fearsome reputation.
Click to expand...

Yes. Because "modern bullets" are apparently only available in 9mm...

If you find 230 grs at 850 fps "anemic", I want you off the planet and back to Krypton immediately.
 
The caliber of my first carry gun at 13 was .38 S&W in a surplus DAO Enfield. I spent over 6 years with it as my primary defensive handgun- you appreciate your "first"...

.38 S&W is still one of my favorite and preferred defensive calibers- low blast, low recoil, deep soft target penetration.

In addition to my English specials, I frequently pocket carry an early 50's true I-frame Terrier in the same loading.
 
Well, I said "just shy of anemic".
Do some testing. I used old BBQ propane tanks. Now, a .44 Mag will blow through 4 of them, front and back. A 9mm will go through 3, front and back.
A 45ACP ? Generally, it makes a large dent, in the first can, and falls, right there. Sometimes it makes it through the front of the tank, and is trapped inside.
These results are understandable,the 9mm uses close to the same amount of powder, as the 45, and the 44 Mag uses 3 to four times the powder, for a bullet of the approximately the same weight. (230 grain VS 240 grain)

BTW, did you miss the "it is effective, almost in the extreme", part of the post ?

I don't dislike 45 ACP, I've got 1911s and a few other great auto-loaders which shoot 45ACP. It's a great round. It's just not as all powerful as it's, shall we say
over-earned reputation makes it out to be. So please don't misconstrue my meaning, all I'm saying is the way people talk about 45 ACP, you would think it's a Howitzer round.
 
I grew up in the 60s and 70's. There was one of our 13 channels that showed old war movies from 11:00 to 3:00 every Saturday afternoon, like Flying Leathernecks, Red Ball Express and They Who Dare. I always thought the 1911 was just the coolest looking gun, so modern and sleek yet rugged looking. My town cops carried revolver, so did the Star Police my dad and his friends had revolvers. The only semi auto I was exposed to hands on back then was a Ruger Mk1, or BuckMark maybe. Made up my mind to someday have a 1911
When I started buying guns I looked at 1911's and was amazed at the variety and huge price range out there.
I wanted the "military" look but not specifically a replica.
I got Springfield Armory Mil-Spec. It has bigger sights, a lowered & flared ejection port, throated chamber, along with a stainless Barre & bushing. With the parkerized finish, plain sights and the right wood grips it does look a lot like a military gun to the casual observer at least
I like it
 
As the .38 Long Colt was ineffective against the Moros; the Army re-issued the .45 Long Colt in the Colt Single Action Army revolver.
Click to expand...

This is often cited. The part that never gets reported is that the 45's were no more effective. Even their rifles failed to work quite often. Powerful drugs in ones system has that effect on people.

Yes. Because "modern bullets" are apparently only available in 9mm...

If you find 230 grs at 850 fps "anemic", I want you off the planet and back to Krypton immediately.
Click to expand...

Examine the "facts" and forget hyperbole and 9mm and 45 ACP have always been equals in performance. Yes Modern bullets have made BOTH more effective. But for whatever reason it wasn't until modern bullets that the 9mm was given serious consideration by many.
 
Dibbs said:
Well, I said "just shy of anemic".
Do some testing. I used old BBQ propane tanks. Now, a .44 Mag will blow through 4 of them, front and back. A 9mm will go through 3, front and back.
A 45ACP ? Generally, it makes a large dent, in the first can, and falls, right there. Sometimes it makes it through the front of the tank, and is trapped inside.
Click to expand...
We did something similar back in the 70's in my buddys uncle's junkyard. .44, .357, and 9mm, easily went through the older, heavier car and truck doors, some through both, depending where and what they hit.

The 45acp often didnt make it through one. That was an eye-opener, especially considering everything we had been told about the .45's growing up.

The 38's didnt do all that well either, at least the commercial 38's we had. Some made it through the first door, some didnt. The jacketed, .38 military ball we had, usually did get through the door though.

Thats all great and all too, if your goal is trying to shoot people through things, but really proves nothing when just shooting people in the open.

jmr40 said:
This is often cited. The part that never gets reported is that the 45's were no more effective. Even their rifles failed to work quite often. Powerful drugs in ones system has that effect on people.



Examine the "facts" and forget hyperbole and 9mm and 45 ACP have always been equals in performance. Yes Modern bullets have made BOTH more effective. But for whatever reason it wasn't until modern bullets that the 9mm was given serious consideration by many.
Click to expand...
I think the biggest issue here is, people wanting to rely on "something" to be a magic talisman or Sword of Todd that will keep them safe. When the reality is, they also have to have the skills needed to be effective with any of them, to do that.

No doubt the gun or whatever is part of that, but you have to do your part as well, if you hope to have a chance of making things work.

When you consider that many, if not most in the military, really dont have a lot of training (your average civilian even less), and then you add to that, all the stress of combat and realistic shooting, its more luck than anything else if you get a hit on something that will shut things down, and give you an instant drop.

All the comments about the 1911's being inaccurate, the M1 carbine being underpowered, etc, just show that things are being based on experiences based on real-world shooting, by people who were "trying" to hit dynamic targets, and who would probably have trouble hitting what needed hit, if the target stood there and allowed them their best shot.

Sure, they may have been shooting "at" the guy, but "where" you shoot them is the important thing, not just getting hits "somewhere" on the body. You always hear how something sucks because look how many hits it took to get them to go down, if they did at all. When in reality, nothing of importance, or necessity, was ever actually hit.

It always seems to be the fault/failure of the gun, ammo, etc, when things dont work, but never the fault of the person pulling the trigger. It couldn't ever be that. :thumbup:
 
AK103K

It always seems to be the fault/failure of the gun, ammo, etc, when things don't work, but never the fault of the person pulling the trigger. It couldn't ever be that.
Click to expand...

Kind of reminds me when I first started playing golf. When I could afford it I went out and bought some the best, most advanced set of golf clubs I could find. Took lessons and was okay but I never let myself blame the clubs for a bad tee shot or for missing a putt. If something went wrong I knew it was me and not the clubs.
 
It's parroting of information. Happens all the time, not just with guns, but everything. We believe because we are told by someone with assumed authorit, whose probably parroting someone else. Have been guilty of it myself. Be lamps unto yourself, question everything and learn.
 
Unfortunately I think the premise here is true. There's a lot of people who don't do their own research or read history.

Memory gets warped. Ideas, actions, and physical objects get romanticized by ill-informed or otherwise skewed "authors".

Facts fall apart. I think we have all been guilty one time or another.
 
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