NM Blackhawk or Uberti El Patron in 45 Colt?

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@ontarget if I may, what are your intentions with the revolvers? If loads equaling the original (250-ish gr. bullet @ 850 +/- fps)work for you, then I'd suggest a powder such as Alliant Red Dot (6.2 grs. I backed off a little from 6.5) or Hodgdon Hi-Skor 700-X (6.5 grs.). These are long popular shotgun powders and are sometimes a little less expensive and using the amounts mentioned will net over 1,000 loads from each pound of powder. I cast my own bullets, but last year made a trade and got some of these bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. They were Hi-Tek coated and shot quite well out of my Uberti-

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I also got some 200 gr. cast RNFP's in the trade but they shot quite a bit lower than the 250's, so I gave up on them.

As @Armored farmer has shown, Unique is great for 850-950 or so fps loads. I use Power Pistol or 2400 for my heavier hunting loads.

35W
 
I look at this as a case of working smarter, rather than harder. I hunt with a 10lb muzzleloader and often carry a 4.5lb Dragoon so it's not really a matter of who carries the biggest gun. As I said, it's about choosing the right tool for the job. Folks are free to carry whatever they like, whether it's a Colt SAA, large frame Ruger Blackhawk, Bisley, BFR or Glock 20. I know what I like and what works for me and I explained why. Rather thoroughly, I thought. I might carry a 36oz SAA, a 37oz Blackhawk or a 38oz GP over a 45-48oz large frame Ruger for the same reasons I choose .44Spl or standard pressure .45Colt over a .44Mag or "Ruger only" .45Colt. Sure, one could choose a large frame Ruger in the chambering of their choice, stoked with heavy enough loads to flatten buffalo but I wouldn't do that any more than I would take a computer apart with an 18" crescent wrench. You can argue all day long that heavier loads are more effective on large game. No one disputes it but the fact is that Colt-level loads work for the purposes mentioned. Period. We know it works, because we've done it. This shouldn't be a foreign concept but I guess some folks cannot see beyond their own proclivities.

The idea of carrying a 40oz G20 instead never entered the equation. Nor will it, ever.

We can talk about removing emotion from the equation (impossible) or make wise cracks about what people are or aren't pretending to be. It serves no useful purpose and changes nothing but is very telling.
 
Then every weight for the revolvers you quote is off if its loaded weight?!?! Empty plus clip
 
I am not an Uberti expert, but from what I can see that it is a Colt Peacemaker type gun. Should the OP be comparing the Uberti to the Vaquero?

Be it a Vaquero or a Blackhawk, I would go with Ruger over Uberti any day of the week.
 
Then every weight for the revolvers you quote is off if its loaded weight?!?! Empty plus clip
Five rounds in a revolver is insignificant. 15rds in a Glock mag makes a big difference. In this case 10oz. People tout how light the Glock is compared to a revolver but loaded it's a different story.
 
@35 Whelen
That uberti Frisco of yours is a good lookin revolver, and also a good shooter.
I'll have to try some red dot loads as I keep that on hand for 12 ga loads.


I'm impressed that this debate has spanned five pages. Of course I couldn't resist a bit of light hearted ribbing, I hope nobody took offense(@Tradmark ).

The thing is, the blackhawk and el patron are apples and oranges. @stchman mentioned that we should compare a vaquero to the el patron. While that might be s better match, I like to compare ruger to uberti.
My first experience with uberti was in a used cap and ball revolver, and I was impressed. I like carrying my c&b revolvers. But sometimes it isnt practical to load, unload, and clean for an hour long trailcam trapline. Enter the SAA
When I decided that I wanted a SAA style revolver for a woods bumming trail gun, I didnt hesitate when I found a NIB uberti for $385 on gunbroker.
The secret is out now, I dont thank they can be had that cheap anymore.
If youre in the market for a SAA, dont overlook the uberti or pietta offerings. They're admittedly not as strong or durable, but in other ways, they're better.
 
Five rounds in a revolver is insignificant. 15rds in a Glock mag makes a big difference. In this case 10oz. People tout how light the Glock is compared to a revolver but loaded it's a different story.

one trick i learned is that if 15 rounds puts that ole glock into the “just to darned heavy to carry” category and one hasnt gotten any positive response from jazzercise or TRT, the glock can be just loaded with 6 bullets too. One could also live on the edge and just load it with 5 bullets. Then it would be even lighter. One could perhaps even venture into a large mall with it and make it back out of the mall before their back or hips gave out.
 
@35 Whelen
That uberti Frisco of yours is a good lookin revolver, and also a good shooter.
I'll have to try some red dot loads as I keep that on hand for 12 ga loads.


I'm impressed that this debate has spanned five pages. Of course I couldn't resist a bit of light hearted ribbing, I hope nobody took offense(@Tradmark ).

The thing is, the blackhawk and el patron are apples and oranges. @stchman mentioned that we should compare a vaquero to the el patron. While that might be s better match, I like to compare ruger to uberti.
My first experience with uberti was in a used cap and ball revolver, and I was impressed. I like carrying my c&b revolvers. But sometimes it isnt practical to load, unload, and clean for an hour long trailcam trapline. Enter the SAA
When I decided that I wanted a SAA style revolver for a woods bumming trail gun, I didnt hesitate when I found a NIB uberti for $385 on gunbroker.
The secret is out now, I dont thank they can be had that cheap anymore.
If youre in the market for a SAA, dont overlook the uberti or pietta offerings. They're admittedly not as strong or durable, but in other ways, they're better.

Well said.
 
One of my favorite 5 1/2-inch Ruger Bisleys in .45 Colt...

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Another Bisley, this one a .44 Mag with a 5 1/2-inch barrel -- easy to carry all day long...

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Another .45 Colt custom Ruger - another easy to carry revolver.

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The sad part is that this thread never should've become this combative. It had potential but some folks just can't help themselves.


one trick i learned is that if 15 rounds puts that ole glock into the “just to darned heavy to carry” category and one hasnt gotten any positive response from jazzercise or TRT, the glock can be just loaded with 6 bullets too. One could also live on the edge and just load it with 5 bullets. Then it would be even lighter. One could perhaps even venture into a large mall with it and make it back out of the mall before their back or hips gave out.
I didn't say it was too heavy to carry. I didn't whine and complain about weight at all. YOU claimed the G20 was lighter, which it is not. In fact, it is heavier.

I already made this point multiple times but I'll word it another way. Carrying more weight than is necessary doesn't make you tough or macho. Why not carry a .460 wherever you go then??? That has nothing to do with it and to make these sarcastic/condescending comments is to miss the point completely but since I usually stop after repeating myself three or four times, I won't bother again. If you want to drive finish nails with a sledgehammer, be my guest.
 
I have an El Patron and have owned a NM Blackhawk 45 Cal convertible, shooting only 45 Colt with it. I also have a Redhawk for Ruger-only loadings. I also shoot SASS using one NM Vaquero and the El Patron with plans to eventually have a matched pair, while undecided which way to go. I also have a JM Marlin Cowboy Limited rifle in 45 Colt.

My El Patron is everything I want in a cowboy gun. The cylinder and bore diameters are right and the gun is exceptionally accurate to POA. The Vaquero is well off POA and has spent way too much time being enhanced and corrected at my gunsmith. I have had cylinder issues with most of my Rugers, which are or have been several in many of the calibers. Even with a good action job, the Ruger trigger is not even close to the Uberti, noting that an El Patron is a "factory tuned" version of the Cattleman.

Now, the Ubertis may not live up to their former reputation, because they are NOT being made with true 4-click Colt SAA action any more. I have 4-click now and haven't had luck finding a matching gun in the same stainless finish, never mind the Belleza model engraving of the cylinder. On the newer guns, buyers are reportedly scrambling to replace the altered firing pins, while going to 3-click is not a big deal, since the 1/4-cock safety, first click hasn't been reliable for 125 years, leading to loading 5 with the hammer down on an empty chamber. The remaining gun with the 4-click action and without any modern "safety" features is the EMF Californian or Alchimista Great Western II by Pietta.

The Ubertis cannot be underestimated but are only advisable for SAMMI spec loadings, 14k psi max. A full spec 45 Colt load with a 255 grain bullet is pretty robust, so I wouldn't underestimate what you would want to do with the gun. The min and max load ranges for the gun can provide a broad experience for the shooter. I have ventured beyond to 45 ACP pressure levels with the Vaquero, but decided quickly that was not for me and that the gun may have been capable but not well suited to that kind of power and recoil. I think Ruger-only should apply only to Blackhawks and in the heaviest loads only the Redhawks, preferably the older ones with 5 inch barrels like mine. The smaller Redhawk I used to have was unpleasant to shoot without the balance of the barrel length. For what is available now, a gun capable of shooting 454 Casull would be the better candidate for Ruger-only 45 Colt loads in a double action.

The Blackhawks seem to have cylinder and bore size issues, most pronounced in the 45 Colts. For what you describe, the Vaquero would be the better bet IMO, except that you shouldn't let anyone tell you that 4" off POA at 50 feet is "in spec". Even there, you can just learn where to aim. Adjustable sights may be overrated and covering up issues with how the gun was made.
 
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Another Bisley, this one a .44 Mag with a 5 1/2-inch barrel -- easy to carry all day long...
And there is nothing wrong with that, if that is your choice. But there's nothing wrong with packing a Colt SAA either. They perform the same tasks, one is just heavier and bulkier than the other. So what's the point?
 
And there is nothing wrong with that, if that is your choice. But there's nothing wrong with packing a Colt SAA either. They perform the same tasks, one is just heavier and bulkier than the other. So what's the point?

Perform the same tasks? Not really. One can handle a wide range of loads (and be sighted in for them), the other can't. You and 35 Whelen both posted photos of your guns, so what is the harm in me posting some (of my "big" Rugers - LOL) as well?

Versatility is the tie breaker for me. The Ruger has more functions it can perform by virtue of its strength and adjustable sight. The weight IMO is negligible.

Just two question:
-Do the adjustable sights allow for sighting in a wider variety of load options?
-While 14,000 PSI .45 Colt loads are adequate for mid-sized game, is the ability to consume 30,000 PSI loads for larger game like elk not advantageous for someone wanting to kill more than 120 lb whitetail?

But I guess we are at an impasse. You have decided despite everything I've laid out I'm wrong and that's okay. And on that note, I am out.
 
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You have decided despite everything I've laid out I'm wrong and that's okay.
No, that is exactly what you are doing and you've done it through the whole thread. You're not wrong in your choice. Not at all. You are wrong in your assessment of others' choices.

Posting pictures and outlining your choices is fine. It's the rhetoric that our choices are somehow wrong to the point of making fun of it, nonsense about G20's or stretching a Uberti with Ruger-only loads that I take issue with. I know some of it was meant to come off as a joke but I also know that it really is not.

I hate these discussions where I have to re-iterate the same thing over and over when everything I needed to say was in my first post or two. As I've said, repeatedly, I make a strong distinction between hunting revolvers and "packin' pistols". They are different tools for different purposes. You don't seem to draw that distinction and THAT Is the disconnect. All your comments have been in the context of hunting. Not simply having a sidearm for protection or targets of opportunity. You completely missed the point I was making about the model 29.

Yeah, adjustable sights are preferable when you're changing loads but fixed sights work perfectly fine for the parameters of a packin' pistol. You don't 'need' to change loads. You find one load that does what you need it to and you adjust the sights to hit where you want. Simple.

In this context, which is clearly being glossed over, they do perform the same tasks. The task is not hunting. It is not killing 2000lb bovines. It is not stopping a lion charge. The task is simply to be a companion when working a fenceline, gathering or splitting firewood, clearing trails, feeding livestock, gathering eggs, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It needs to be light and portable and it only needs to be able to take varmints and deer-sized game out to say 50yds. Or maybe you just want to shoot a couple boxes of ammo at cans, rocks or steel. Sure, you can do it with a big Ruger shooting 325's at 1300fps if you want to but there's not much point in it when a 250@900fps will do everything that needs doing and won't make your ears bleed in the process. Fact is, we've done it and done it for years and we know it works.
 
My El Patron is everything I want in a cowboy gun. The cylinder and bore diameters are right and the gun is exceptionally accurate to POA. The Vaquero is well off POA and has spent way too much time being enhanced and corrected at my gunsmith. I have had cylinder issues with most of my Rugers, which are or have been several in many of the calibers. Even with a good action job, the Ruger trigger is not even close to the Uberti, noting that an El Patron is a "factory tuned" version of the Cattleman.

The Blackhawks seem to have cylinder and bore size issues, most pronounced in the 45 Colts. For what you describe, the Vaquero would be the better bet IMO, except that you shouldn't let anyone tell you that 4" off POA at 50 feet is "in spec". Even there, you can just learn where to aim. Adjustable sights may be overrated and covering up issues with how the gun was made.

When I first got bought Uberti's, it was for CAS competition and they were something of a novelty to me. I decided I wanted a good, stout utility 45 Colt so I bought a 4 3/4" New Vaquero because, well, everyone said they were better. I hated the hammer with the long spur, so I fitted a Bisley model. The cylinder throats were way undersized so I sent it off to have them uniformed. I cut the forcing cone to 11°. It had the well known tight spot or "choke" where the barrel threaded into the frame and after 60-some rounds of fire-lapping it was better, but still there. I had to work the trigger over and work on the timing because the bolt popped way too soon, scoring the cylinder. After all this work it would only group around 5"-6" at 50 yds. I got disgusted and sold it.

The Uberti Frisco above is about 50% more accurate than the New Vaquero I owned and the only thing I've done to it is cut the forcing cone to 11° and replace the bolt/trigger spring.

Perform the same tasks? Not really. One can handle a wide range of loads (and be sighted in for them), the other can't. You and 35 Whelen both posted photos of your guns, so what is the harm in me posting some (of my "big" Rugers - LOL) as well?

Versatility is the tie breaker for me. The Ruger has more functions it can perform by virtue of its strength and adjustable sight. The weight IMO is negligible.

Just two question:
-Do the adjustable sights allow for sighting in a wider variety of load options?
-While 14,000 PSI .45 Colt loads are adequate for mid-sized game, is the ability to consume 30,000 PSI loads for larger game like elk not advantageous for someone wanting to kill more than 120 lb whitetail?

But I guess we are at an impasse. You have decided despite everything I've laid out I'm wrong and that's okay. And on that note, I am out.

They do perform the same tasks. Surely you've read SIXGUNS and all the things Keith and others did with a 45 Colt, even with the original loads and the old inefficient, pointy bullet. Of course a more powerful version of a 45 Colt would seem better for larger game, but to arbitrarily limit a "normal" 45 Colt load to 120 lb. whitetails is odd, at best. Have you experienced .45 caliber bullets at 950 fps bounce off of say, 125 lb. whitetails?? How did you reach this conclusion? Although I'm sure you have more experience on the subject than I, your assertion that a 120 lb. whitetail is the limit for such loads is completely contrary to my experiences in the field.

You're thinking of versatility only in the sense of handgun hunting. As @CraigC and others have alluded to, Colt-style SA revolvers are versatile in a much more broad sense. For example, my old battered .44 Special pictured a couple of pages back has been used for CAS competition, plinking, for small game, quail, javelina, deer and hogs, and all with one sight setting. If I have to get out a screwdriver and twiddle with sights when changing loads, that's not versatility in my book. Also, and again, if versatility were defined by how ultimately powerful a cartridge is, then rifle hunters would do well to all buy 375 H&H's or 458 Winchesters and load them up or down depending on the quarry. But that makes no sense.

Max, I understand that it's your thing to show people how well big revolvers kill cattle-size animals. But not 1 person in 100,000 will hunt that type game nor has the need for that kind of power. If they just want it, kewl. But to try to convince everyone they need it day to day is in your own words "intellectually dishonest".

35W
 
I would plan on getting both a traditional Italian replica made by Uberti or Pietta, and a New Model Blackhawk.
You won't be happy choosing one over the other.
The repro will handle like a Colt and possess the romance of the Old West.
The Blackhawk will provide the accuracy of adjustable target sights and the robustness needed for high velocity handloads.
That's been my experience anyway.
If you do reload to higher velocities, be sure to paint the base of such cartridges to distinguish them from your standard velocity reloads or factory loads.
 
There are almost no shooters on this forum with any real experience with Uberti's

Well, I owned a .45LC Uberti Cattleman. While it was beautifully made, it had very shallow rifling, and would not shoot cast bullets worth a damn. Of course, this was just one sample.
I sold it off and bought one of the early case-hardened .45LC Ruger New Vaqueros. With my cast bullet handloads it shot to point of aim and was quite accurate.
 
When I first got bought Uberti's, it was for CAS competition and they were something of a novelty to me. I decided I wanted a good, stout utility 45 Colt so I bought a 4 3/4" New Vaquero because, well, everyone said they were better. I hated the hammer with the long spur, so I fitted a Bisley model. The cylinder throats were way undersized so I sent it off to have them uniformed. I cut the forcing cone to 11°. It had the well known tight spot or "choke" where the barrel threaded into the frame and after 60-some rounds of fire-lapping it was better, but still there. I had to work the trigger over and work on the timing because the bolt popped way too soon, scoring the cylinder. After all this work it would only group around 5"-6" at 50 yds. I got disgusted and sold it.

The Uberti Frisco above is about 50% more accurate than the New Vaquero I owned and the only thing I've done to it is cut the forcing cone to 11° and replace the bolt/trigger spring.



They do perform the same tasks. Surely you've read SIXGUNS and all the things Keith and others did with a 45 Colt, even with the original loads and the old inefficient, pointy bullet. Of course a more powerful version of a 45 Colt would seem better for larger game, but to arbitrarily limit a "normal" 45 Colt load to 120 lb. whitetails is odd, at best. Have you experienced .45 caliber bullets at 950 fps bounce off of say, 125 lb. whitetails?? How did you reach this conclusion? Although I'm sure you have more experience on the subject than I, your assertion that a 120 lb. whitetail is the limit for such loads is completely contrary to my experiences in the field.

You're thinking of versatility only in the sense of handgun hunting. As @CraigC and others have alluded to, Colt-style SA revolvers are versatile in a much more broad sense. For example, my old battered .44 Special pictured a couple of pages back has been used for CAS competition, plinking, for small game, quail, javelina, deer and hogs, and all with one sight setting. If I have to get out a screwdriver and twiddle with sights when changing loads, that's not versatility in my book. Also, and again, if versatility were defined by how ultimately powerful a cartridge is, then rifle hunters would do well to all buy 375 H&H's or 458 Winchesters and load them up or down depending on the quarry. But that makes no sense.

Max, I understand that it's your thing to show people how well big revolvers kill cattle-size animals. But not 1 person in 100,000 will hunt that type game nor has the need for that kind of power. If they just want it, kewl. But to try to convince everyone they need it day to day is in your own words "intellectually dishonest".

35W



sounds good and im sure it gets a big ole thumbs up from craigc, however, thats not max’s point. When asked which one would he buy he stated that the ruger could be pressed into service that the uberti could not be. This is true. He stated there isnt much difference in weight, there isnt much. A little less than 3 ounces. He stated that adjustable sights make it a more versatile gun, and they do. Not much there about the need to kill cape buffalo. The uberti wont even run keiths 44 special level loads safely. Not sure why you are quoting him.

Craigc — dont care what you like or why. Thats your business. Its disingenuous to claim a difference of a few ounces is a deal breaker but then take the position you take on glock weights. Heck you got your lil taffin book there, i have two copies as well, and you have manipulated his whole concept of a packing pistol. Now a short barreled fa83 and ruger blackhawk isnt a packing pistol? 2-3 ounces makes a gun “huge” and another packable and svelte? Pushing it a bit i think

its fair to just like a saa clone or the real thing. Its fine to want one and carry it. The advantages to the ruger are still there and still real. Hope the op enjoys the uberti and ends up with both
 
Well, I owned a .45LC Uberti Cattleman. While it was beautifully made, it had very shallow rifling, and would not shoot cast bullets worth a damn. Of course, this was just one sample.
I sold it off and bought one of the early case-hardened .45LC Ruger New Vaqueros. With my cast bullet handloads it shot to point of aim and was quite accurate.
The 45 Colt within standard pressure range does not shoot hard cast without leading. The 10% antimony alloy works fine. I wonder if you r bullets were too hard. Of course there are many other factors with leading, but my El Patron eats up Brinell 12 with no problems. The rifling is well defined and shiny and looks better defined than my USA guns.
 
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