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Commands For The Citizen

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lemaymiami said:
As a cop I learned never ever allow someone to approach me with his hands concealed, period.
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BINGO!!!!!!!

But I can't do that as a private citizen.

I could try it as a security guard if I was on property that I was contracted to provide security services for but if the person disobeys my command there's really nothing I can do about it.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
BINGO!!!!!!!

But I can't do that as a private citizen.

I could try it as a security guard if I was on property that I was contracted to provide security services for but if the person disobeys my command there's really nothing I can do about it.
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Totally agree with you. Sad part is even the cops are getting to the point of not being able to do anything about it.
 
Ernie Bass said:
It is getting worse each and every day. I saw this article and could not believe it. They want to reduce the charge of assaulting a Police Officer from a felony to a misdemeanor. It must be so tough being a Officer in today's world. Where do they go next?


View attachment 937961
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Pretty soon with all the other BS of defunding. All the officers will quit, and you be able to replace them. Some are even considering doing away with the city police force.

At some point in time vigilantes will take over when they realize they themselves wont get arrested as well.

If the criminals non-law-abiding people believe that vigilantes will be more fair or will not shoot even more, then they live in a fantasy world.

The whole "left" is loosing it they want to take guns from us and say to rely on the police, then they want to defund, eliminate etc and make the police less effective.

No wonder there is a gun buying frenzy going on especially with first timers!
 
WestKentucky said:
Legally, socially, and mentally the posed question has different answers. It’s one I am struggling with right now as well and the only thing I can figure out is the social part of it. If you are forced to shoot someone to protect yourself then obviously you have done something very wrong. Even if minding your business and they insist upon harming you and when given adequate warning they continue to provoke, socially it will be your fault. It’s a no-win situation. Mentally, how do you handle your decisions? If you shoot a guy then you worry for the rest of your life that you took action that although justifiable may have been too much, but likewise if you take no action then you may be worried that the actions you chose not to take could have prevented some harm to a loved one of someone else in the area. Last but certainly not least is the legal aspect which although laws are not changing quickly, interpretation is and the emotions of a jury begin to play heavily in a decision based on what you did when they were nowhere around and socially they are facing pressure to decide a certain way.

To me it comes down to this...
A person is the master of their own destiny. Are you destined to end up shot in some alley at 2 am when your just minding your business? Not if you decide not to put yourself in that spot at that time. Are you destined to break up a fight and become the interest of law enforcement? Not if you don’t go breaking up fights you aren’t involved in. If you are facing an armed person whether that be law enforcement, overzealous concerned citizen, or thug of some sort, is it your destiny to disregard their commands and get shot, or is it your destiny to comply and take whatever happens and make the best of it. Living is better than dying, but you make decisions that put you into certain scenarios. Sometimes the decision to simply go to the mall is one that may put us in the line of fire as happened in Lexington Ky over the last couple days, but what decisions do we make at the time we learn that the situation has gone awry? It’s a bad spot that we live in. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t, damned if you act, damned if you react, and damned if you take no action.
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Yes very difficult questions to answer and deal with.

I have come to the resolution that if i save the life of my kids or grandkids, even if I have to spend the rest of my life in prison. So be it, I will rest easy knowing they are still alive, and not 6 feet under.

The harder question to ask yourself is if you would rather be alive and in prison for the rest of your life, or dead. Thats a harder decesion to make for sure.

Most, but not all parents would give up their lives to save their children.

There is a saying though.... I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

If your being carried by 6, thats it you get no appeal or reprieve EVER!

With 12 you do get a chance to tell your story, and you can appeal, and in some cases get a repeal.

It aint cheap and it isnt easy. But when your life is on the line, or your childs life is on the line. Thay decesion becomes an easy one.
 
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Craig_VA said:
I am curious whether you lit up his face, or aimed lower so only his body was in the primary beam. Even an old fashioned 2 C-cell flashlight directly in the eyes can be a major bother. A long range (6 D-cell) or extra bright high-lumen tactical light blinding my eyes would launch my anger-adrenalin. too. Plus, it is not necessary to see the face to identify what is in the hands or being worn on eeh body which may be a weapon.

For years as a Scout leader, one of my recurring training activities of 11 year olds on first campout was to never shine their lights into faces when identifying anyone in the dark, since it messed with night vision.

I have not seen a discussion on flashlight strategy and tactics in this forum, but I bet it would be an educational one. Use of standard lights, tactical lights, strobe option, etc., all seem worth thinking about.


IANAL, but given a lot of reading here and with Branca's LoSD, I suggest that such an action, depending on state law, could be illegal brandishing. Further, if the other person asserts that the gun became pointed at them, the charge could upgrade to assault.
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In Texas if they are trespassing on your property and you give verbal warning to remove themselves from your property and they refuse to leave, then you CAN pull your weapon. You cant point it at them, and you cant shoot them (without other justifications). But you can pull your weapon and show them that you will use it, if they do anything that would justify use of deadly force.

Texas law in this instance views the "showing" of your weapon as a use of force, but not use of deadly force.

Speaking of which in THIS instance you DO have the Authority to issue commands, and they do have a legal obligation to follow your commands. At least in Texas.

A little side note though on Trespass, if they are on a otherwise public sidewalk in front of your house, they are NOT trespassing. If they linger it might be considered loitering, but thats not still not Tresspassing.
 
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Trunk Monkey said:
This is a hypothetical based on something that actually happened to me at work.

It was approximately 2 o'clock in the morning. I was doing a security check on an electrical substation that was on private property belonging to the local utility. I was a utilities contractor, I had every right to be there. It was literally my job.

As I was getting ready to leave a crackhead tried to ride through the parking lot on his bicycle. If he had been going through that would have been one thing but he couldn't have been because the parking lot ended in a 20-foot drop off.

So I got out of my car, lit the guy up with my flashlight and asked him to stop.

He went absolutely crazy. He dropped his bike and started screaming at me. He kept repeating "Do you want to see mine MF? Do you want to see mine?"

Then he pulled up his shirt with his left hand and reached into his waistband with his right. I was absolutely convinced that he was going to come up with some kind of weapon. Maybe not a gun but something.

I didn't draw but I absolutely had my hand on my gun and had deactivated the retention device.

The guy came up with a cheap 100 lumen Walmart flashlight. Apparently he was pissed off because I bright beamed him.

That particular incident I would have no problem justifying my actions to my employer , to the police or in a court of law.

But what if I'm not at work? What if I'm not on private property where I'm acting as the agent of the property owner?

This also actually happened to me one night. I was on my way to work and on my way out the door I decided to take the trash out.

While I was throwing the trash away a couple of scrappers pulled up next to the dumpster and I'm fairly certain they were about to go through it. Which wouldn't have been my issue except that the passenger got out of the car and instead instead of going to dumpster came at me.

Long story short I asked him not to come near me once or twice and got ignored. Then quartered on the guy and yelled at him to back TF off. At that point he stopped then he cussed me out. Then he did all the things that Tweakers do when they're trying to run a scam on you and you call them on it. Then he left.

I can ask you not to come near me. I ask you to keep your hands visible but I have no legal authority to force you to obey me.

So my question is at what point does your refusal to abide by my request become a legitimate threat? I I want to be perfectly clear that I'm not asking "When can I draw?" because I very firmly believe that if I have to ask I'm not justified.

You can stand right next to me and you haven't broken any laws. You can put your hands in your pockets you can put your hand in the waistband of your pants there can even be a gun in your pocket with your hand and you still haven't done ANYTHING THAT GIVES ME A VALID REASON TO DEFEND MYSELF EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE A THREAT TO ME. (Edited for clarity)

IMO this is a hard question to ask clearly because it's really hard to know where that line is at.
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In Texas, when there is a clear violation of Trespassing. The owner or official designee.... which could be a security officer, can get a legal command to leave the property at once, and the person(s) are legally bound to comply. Other commands though may or maynot be legal commands they are legally bound to follow. But the command to leave the property at once is one that they are legally bound to follow. Once you give that command, you can use reasonable force to remove them from the property. You can not however use deadly force to remove them.
 
bdickens said:
I don't know where you get that idea.
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If your reffering to me and pulling a gun....

read this...
https://www.uslawshield.com/castle-doctrine/

"You still have a legal right to exclude or remove trespassers from your land; however you are limited to only using non-deadly force to do so. The use of force can have many different manifestations, from physical confrontation to displaying a weapon. Texas Penal Code §9.04 states that for defensive purposes the display of a weapon in order to create apprehension in another person is considered a use of force, not deadly force. That means if someone trespasses on your property, you may display your firearm to create apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary. You will not be legally justified in discharging the firearm, but you will be legally justified in displaying it to “create apprehension” under the law. Only if the trespasser is committing other acts where the law states that you are justified in using deadly force would you be allowed to discharge your firearm legally."
 
I would suggest reading the entire article and not cherry-picking the parts that seem to support your predetermined conclusion. 'Cause it ain't quite so simple.
 
bdickens said:
I would suggest reading the entire article and not cherry-picking the parts that seem to support your predetermined conclusion. 'Cause it ain't quite so simple.
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I did, even discussed it with a lawyer.
I never said one could fire or discharge the weapon to remove a Tresspasser on your property. Nor did I intentionally imply that.
The lawyer even informed me, that depending on the DA you cant even point your gun at a trespasser. Pull it, show it yes, but not point or discharge it.

Certain conditions must be met to use deadly force, on your property or anywhere else. Treaspassing alone, without any other crime being commited, is NOT one of them.

So is there something you think I missed? (In reference to tresspasing, not other crimes or entry in to building or residence etc)
 
I see nothing that I know to be incorrect in TGC's description.

There is some terminological imprecision in the linked article, but it is not incorrect.

In an early draft, Code Section 9.42 permitted the use of deadly force to terminate trespass. No longer.

The bit about drawing a gun is fairly recent, and it has to do with drawing a gun if non-deadly physical force is justified, for the purpose of showing that one would use it in the event hat deadly force came to be required.

Non-deadly physical force may be lawfully used if necessary to terminate trespass in Texas.

there are risks, and if the defender is not killed or injured, he will make calls and start incurring legal expenses before the trespasser has driven out of sight.

And between that moment and the time things have been resolved, the defender's fate will be in the hands of others.

For me, it would be a last resort.
 
Really? So y'all are telling me that here in Texas I can threaten to use deadly force against trespassers when the actual use of deadly force is not warranted?
 
bdickens said:
Really? So y'all are telling me that here in Texas I can threaten to use deadly force against trespassers when the actual use of deadly force is not warranted?
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If it is necessary to do soo, you may display a weapon to indicate that, if deadly force becomes necessary, you will use it.
 
Texasgrillchef said:
In Texas, when there is a clear violation of Trespassing. The owner or official designee.... which could be a security officer, can get a legal command to leave the property at once, and the person(s) are legally bound to comply. Other commands though may or maynot be legal commands they are legally bound to follow. But the command to leave the property at once is one that they are legally bound to follow. Once you give that command, you can use reasonable force to remove them from the property. You can not however use deadly force to remove them.
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FWIW in Colorado if I ask (I never order people to do anything) you to leave and you don't you're tresspassing. I'm not going to use any force to remove you. I'm going to call the cops. When the cops show up the first thing they're going to do is ask me if I told you to leave. As soon as I say "Yes" they're going to cite you for criminal tresspass and it's no longer my problem.
 
Kleanbore said:
If it is necessary to do soo, you may display a weapon to indicate that, if deadly force becomes necessary, you will use it.
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If I'm working as an armed guard I suppose the implication is there no matter what I'm actually doing but it's been my experience (based on the number of idiots who threaten to kill me or do stupid things like bringing an ax to a gun fight) that most folks don't even notice I'm even armed. Possibly because my uniform is black, my gun is black and I work at night.
 
bdickens said:
Really? So y'all are telling me that here in Texas I can threaten to use deadly force against trespassers when the actual use of deadly force is not warranted?
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As the lawyer informed, I need to verbally with authoritative voice, make the demand for the trespasser to immediately leave. This may need to be repeated multiple times until you are absolutely sure you know they have heard and understand you. Before you can use non-deadly force of any type, you have to be sure that they are refusing to leave, and are not currently in the process of leaving.

Meaning if you have 3,000 acres, and they are 4 miles into your property. It will take them a bit to leave. So you have to give them an opportunity to leave before you can use non-deadly force to remove them.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
FWIW in Colorado if I ask (I never order people to do anything) you to leave and you don't you're tresspassing. I'm not going to use any force to remove you. I'm going to call the cops. When the cops show up the first thing they're going to do is ask me if I told you to leave. As soon as I say "Yes" they're going to cite you for criminal tresspass and it's no longer my problem.
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You can do that here in Texas as well. Their is no requirement that you yourself are required to use force to remove someone. You just have the right to use reasonable Non-deadly force to remove them.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
If I'm working as an armed guard I suppose the implication is there no matter what I'm actually doing but it's been my experience (based on the number of idiots who threaten to kill me or do stupid things like bringing an ax to a gun fight) that most folks don't even notice I'm even armed. Possibly because my uniform is black, my gun is black and I work at night.
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Other then being a Law enforcement officer, or in the military, i Doubt anyone’s job description requires them to put their life on the line, or risk their lives in any violent confrontation. Maybe some security jobs do, such as a body guard. I was a paramedic in my younger days. We were always told, if you see anything dangerous as far as a violent situation. We were told we could leave or not enter, until the police arrived and secured the scene.

So unless it’s in your job description, I would back away from anything that would cost me my life and call 911. It’s just a job, and I can always find a new one. I can’t go down and buy another life. This isn’t a video game.
 
Crack heads have the right to go about their business riding their bike. In the original post, it's mentioned that this happened in a parking lot. Yet it's stated that it's private property etc... Most parking lots are not something where you can tell someone to get lost or they can't be there etc..

If this is in a place where someone can ride a bike or walk through whether a dead end or not etc.., it's my opinion as a normal every day Joe blow, that I don't confront anyone that is not confronting me or invading my space or not threatening me.
 
Telum Pisces said:
Crack heads have the right to go about their business riding their bike. In the original post, it's mentioned that this happened in a parking lot. Yet it's stated that it's private property etc... Most parking lots are not something where you can tell someone to get lost or they can't be there etc..
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Does a crackhead have a right to hang out in your front yard (really ever) at 2AM? I said it was the parking lot of an electrical substation that was private property belonging to the local utilities.

I actually didn't tell him to get lost but I did have every right to stop him on private property that I was in control of and ask him what he was doing there at 2 in the morning.

Telum Pisces said:
If this is in a place where someone can ride a bike or walk through whether a dead end or not etc.., it's my opinion as a normal every day Joe blow, that I don't confront anyone that is not confronting me or invading my space or not threatening me.
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Well, the people that actually own the property feel differently. They don't want random crackheads hanging out on their property in the middle of the night and they hired me to enforce that.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
Does a crackhead have a right to hang out in your front yard (really ever) at 2AM? I said it was the parking lot of an electrical substation that was private property belonging to the local utilities.

I actually didn't tell him to get lost but I did have every right to stop him on private property that I was in control of and ask him what he was doing there at 2 in the morning.

Well, the people that actually own the property feel differently. They don't want random crackheads hanging out on their property in the middle of the night and they hired me to enforce that.
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Alrighty then. Do your thing! In my part of the country, I've never seen a parking lot for a sub station! And I have worked for the local power company. So I've seen all the substation, big and small in my area. Most anything that required a parking lot required workers daily and was fenced off with high fencing and a gate around said power company property to keep people out.

And in certain parts of this country, a person can stand in your front yard all they want and you can't do a thing about it other than call the cops. Sure he isn't supposed to be there and you can ask him to leave and more. But if that crackhead doesn't want to leave and is not threatening you in your front yard, you are SOL for doing anything other than calling 911. Again different states and different laws apply.
 
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