Commands For The Citizen

[Trunk Monkey]

Alrighty then. Do your thing!

Thanks, I will.

And in certain parts of this country, a person can stand in your front yard all they want and you can't do a thing about it other than call the cops.

What else would you do besides call the cops?

Sure he isn't supposed to be there and you can ask him to leave and more.

Wait, which is it? I can't do anything but call the cops or I can ask him to leave and more?

But if that crackhead doesn't want to leave and is not threatening you in your front yard, you are SOL for doing anything other than calling 911.

Why would I want to call 911 over a simple trespass?

Again different states and different laws apply.

Thank you for adding your insightful legal commentary

 

[entropy]

Alright let me give you what I think is a really good example of what I'm trying to explain.

I talked a lot about the two guys that tried to rob me outside my house as an example of why you should never leave your home unarmed but let me break it down for you exactly what happened that night.

When I first saw the two guys they were walking North along the backside of one of the apartment buildings. Where they were at was a place where they would have had gone out of their way to get to. If they were just cutting through the apartment complex they would have cut diagonally across the grounds instead of going the way that they did.

When they got to the end of the building they turned left which would have put them heading west. The only place they could have gone from there was back around the building that they just come around. If they had been trying to cut through the complex they would have gone straight and turn right at the end of my building. Because that was the only way out the side of the complex that they were going to was fenced in.

As soon as they saw me they split up and tried to surround me. One of them asked me some stupid question about whether or not I was going fishing I think he asked me that to distract me so that they could get closer. As soon as I responded they started to bum-rush me. Long story short they realize that I was armed and they decided not to do anything and they left. When they left they turn right back around and went the way they came instead of going on to get out of the complex which would have taken them away from me also.

So everything that they did was everything that I've been taught is the lead up to a mugging or a robbery. BUT they never once said "This is a robbery." or "Give us your money. " and they never actually displayed a weapon.

They're was never any question in my mind. I was (and still am) absolutely convinced their intent was to rob me.

But if I had drawn my gun, proned them out and held them for the police I would have been the one who went to jail.

You were interviewed. It happens. Knowing how to respond changes the outcome. Yes, their intent was to rob you. Yes, you foiled that, because you read the interview, saw it coming, and you were armed.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

You were interviewed. It happens. Knowing how to respond changes the outcome. Yes, their intent was to rob you. Yes, you foiled that, because you read the interview, saw it coming, and you were armed.

I think you're missing my main point. I'm very aware that their intent was to rob me.

The point I was trying to make is that they didn't actually do anything that would justify armed self-defense

 

[entropy]

They learn these skills in jail/prison.......

 

[DocRock]

@Trunk Monkey, your original.post highlights a serious dilemma for decent people.

The criminal justice system offers very little in the way of justice, and absolutely nothing in the way of common sense today. Since the 1960s it has been under non-stop attack by the forces of Marxist-Liberalism, such that the defense of life, liberty, and property are only very very rarely to be found justified under the law these days.

This is a big problem for any individual carrying a firearm. "Justifiable homicide" in many jurisdictions today doesn't exist in fact even if it exists de jure. Someone gets shot and no matter what the circumstances, politics and intersectionality come into play for the DA's office in many jurisdictions today. And under those circumstances, we are all, most decidedly, not equal before the law.

It is a much bigger problem for a decent person carrying a firearm. Because decent people find it hard to "look the other way", to ignore certain situations where confrontation is more likely.

Take your example with Crackhead Fred in the parking lot. Conflict avoidance suggests "do nothing" , do not engage a dude riding a bike in.places he ought not at that time of night. But, as a decent,conscientious person, whether trying to ensure Fred did not take a ride off a 20ft cliff, or to protect your employer from damage or liability, you engaged Crackhead Fred. From the way you describe the situation, I can't believe you didn't shoot him. Your restraint was admirable. But had you done so, while certainly justifiable from your description, there aren't many jurisdictions left where a DA would be very likely to so determine, especially since Feed was clearly a victim before you two even came into contact.

The effect of 50 years of cultural Marxism in this country is that "doing the right thing" is frequently punished. So, each and every one of us has to decide what the right thing is, and, frequently, if it's what we learned from our parents, from religion, from pre-1980 American culture, the doing of it will likely see us punished by today's criminal justice system.

I don't know what I would have done in the circumstances that you describe. I admire your restraint and coolness of head.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

It will really hurt your ego to let a criminal or threat leave = like the song says in the movie Frozen --- " let it go ".

If the criminal or threat leaves, it doesn't hurt my ego a lick. I'll wave goodbye and wish him bon voyage as he walks down the street

 

[Kleanbore]

The effect of 50 years of cultural Marxism in this country is that "doing the right thing" is frequently punished.

Not sure about how frequently, but for me, "doing the right thing", when it comes to the use of force , is limited to the necessary immediate defense of myself, loved ones, and helpless victims known by me to be innocent.

Does you definition extend beyond that?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Trunk Monkey, it seems you were just a citizen when your were performing your duty to your employer.

I don't like that terminology. We're all "just citizens" but "just citizens" are who is supposed to be running this country.

It would seem that it is possible, you started the confrontation.

I absolutely started the confrontation. I was employed by the city utility specifically to keep people like him off of Utilities property in the middle of the night. If I had done anything but stop the guy I would have been derelict in my duties.

No one wants a powerful light which I am sure you had as a security guard in their face

A good way to a avoid having a powerful light in your face is not trespass on private property in the middle of the night. If you insist on going places where you know you're not supposed to be you've got to kind of expect things like powerful lights in your face. Having said that, as I mentioned elsewhere I put that light in his face on purpose. I've seen things like this go sideways way too many times. There was an incident in December of 2018 a guard who worked for the same company I do ( it's a big company, I never met the guy, he actually worked in another city) asked a vagrant to leave the private property the guard had been assigned to and the vagrant murdered him. I wanted the guy to be blind. I wanted every possible advantage I could have. Not stopping the guy wasn't an option.

I believe you should have just let it go and at some point called the Police.

Again, I was specifically hired not to let it go.

Just do not get involved with anything you do not have to.

Again, Keeping. Trespassers. Off. Utilities. Owned. Private. Property. Is. SPECIFICALLY What. They. Hired. Me. To. Do. It's kind of the epitome* of "things I have to get involved with.

*
e·pit·o·me
/əˈpidəmē/
noun

1. 1.
   a person or thing that is a perfect example of a particular quality or type.
   "she looked the epitome of elegance and good taste"

 

[DocRock]

Not sure about how frequently, but for me, "doing the right thing", when it comes to the use of force , is limited to the necessary immediate defense of myself, loved ones, and helpless victims known by me to be innocent.

Does you definition extend beyond that?

I gave an example.

 

[Ernie Bass]

I am on your side. You are taking my word "Citizens" out of context. I feel for you and every single security guard and Police Officer in the County now. Totally disgusting to see what is happening. For sure, very dangerous for You and all Officers not to forget EMT's and Fireman. I would say you are really caught between the Proverbial Rock and a Hard Place. In the end, your life is what counts. Even if you have to do time. Just curious, does your Employer provide and defense Insurance for you?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Just to clarify. When I'm not at work I am the most non-confrontational person you've ever seen in your life. I very strictly mind my own business. I've seen too many incidents turn ugly too quickly to involve myself in someone else's drama if it's at all avoidable.

At work my situation is much different now. I work on a gated property that is closed to the public no exceptions. If you aren't an employee of the company that owns the property or an employee of a company that's a contractor to the company that owns the property (Security, Janitorial, Groundskeeper, Maintenance Contractors, Sanitation) you have no business on property. I work 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. so contractors don't come there during my shift.

If I see something outside the fence line, unless it's somebody actually trying to get through or over the fence I pay it no mind. I used to watch the crackheads walk through the parking lots around where I'm at looking for cars to break into. And when I actually saw them trying to open car doors I'd call the police, I don't do that anymore. Because the police aren't coming.

Somebody(probably the owner of one of the flophouse motels around where I work)dumped a pile of mattresses that I'm positive are full of bed bugs. In one of the parking lots behind where I work. I honestly didn't see it happen but even if I had not my circus not my monkeys.

So the point that I'm trying to make is that I don't go out looking for trouble it just seems to find me sometimes.

It's not really germane to this topic but just as a point of clarification the big problem with a lot of the utilities infrastructure is it they tend to put it in open space areas and they tend to buy acres more than they need so that they have a buffer around the actual facility. All that empty, unused space is a perfect place to put a homeless camp (guess how I know) and that made my job that much more difficult.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I am on your side. You are taking my word "Citizens" out of context.

I wasn't busting your chops. I just don't like it when people use that word like that.

Just curious, does your Employer provide and defense Insurance for you?

All licensed security companies in Colorado are required to carry bonds on their employees.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I gave an example.

FWIW since you're in the Springs and will know the area I am talking about the incident with the tweaker happened in the parking lot of the substation behind the Walmart on Platte.


I understand what you're saying but it's not immediately applicable when you're the one in the parking lot at 2 O'Clock in the morning.

 

[Craig_AR]

I wasn't busting your chops. I just don't like it when people use that word like that.

You are taking my word "Citizens" out of context.

I think Ernie was trying to distinguish between the authorities and responsibilities of all citizens and the sometimes elevated legal authorities and responsibilities of LEOs and licensed security guards when on duty. The word just does have implied connotations that may not come across well; maybe a better phrasing would be "ordinary citizen."

 

[Kleanbore]

I gave an example

If you did gave an example of an incident in which you would use or threaten deadly force and would reasonably expect to be found unlawful, I missed it completely.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

So to get this headed back to on topic I've been interviewed enough times to know when I'm being interviewed. Frequently panhandlers will use some of the same interview techniques that muggers will to get you to let your guard down and let them give you the pitch. I've seen sales people do the same thing. I've had people who I know are a threat but who haven't done anything actionable yet approach me. I had a guy pull right in the gate at work one night and when I approached his vehicle to ask his business he reached over on his seat where there was in fact a gun. When I asked him to keep his hands visible he said "Oh FO dude, I'm a cop." (He really was) if I'd drawn on him guess who would have gone to jail.

I guess ultimately even if I can't require you to abide by my request (I don't order people to do anything) to keep your distance or show me your hands you can't keep me from asking either and if I really believe it's warranted I will ask you to do so. I'm no worse off if you don't.

I've said this before but if I approach someone who isn't up to something at work they're generally compliant. If they are up to something th conversation immediately becomes about whether or not I have the authority to ask them to do whatever I'm asking them to do. So that's usually an indicator.

 

[bdickens]

A good way to a avoid having a powerful light in your face is not trespass on private property in the middle of the night. If you insist on going places where you know you're not supposed to be you've got to kind of expect things like powerful lights in your face.

You'd think that would be obvious.

 

[labnoti]

...
So I got out of my car, lit the guy up with my flashlight and asked him to stop....

Long story short I asked him not to come near me once or twice and got ignored....

What words did you use to ask in these two examples?

In the first example, a man was riding his bicycle. You wrote you asked him to stop. Did you say, "Will you stop?" Or did you command, "Stop!" ? Was it a question or a command? Did you really want him to stop? What did you intend to do if he stopped? Interview him, arrest him, or tell him to leave? Could you have told him to leave instead of asking him to stop?

In the second example, you wrote you asked the man not to come near you and then commanded them to back TF off. What words did you use to ask?

Note the command types:

Regular -- Orders that are stated directly
Stop -- Instruction to terminate an ongoing behavior generally preceded by the word “stop”
Don’t -- Instruction to terminate an ongoing behavior or a future behavior generally preceded with the word “don’t”
Negative -- Instructions to terminate an ongoing behavior which do not begin with the words “stop” or “don’t”
Indirect -- Suggestions (allowing for nonresponse) to respond motorically or verbally that are not in question form—The statement only indirectly indicates what response is expected. It requires the recipient of the command to infer what response is expected.
Question -- Statement in question form to which a motoric response is expected, even though a verbal response is available but inappropriate
Interview -- Statement in question form to which the only appropriate response is verbal Other Any command that cannot fit in one of the above categories or a command that may fit in two or more of the categories at the same time

There are also two sub-types, Alpha and Beta

Alpha -- Command in which a motoric or verbal response is appropriate and feasible
Beta -- Command in which compliance may be difficult due to vagueness, interruption, or indirectiveness

"Back TF off!" is a regular command. We could probably say it's an Alpha command, but it could have been less vague such as, "Take two steps away from me!" I'm not saying this is better or more advisable, just more "alpha."

When you wrote you asked the one man to stop or the other man not to come near you, depending on the words you used, those commands could have been Stop, Don't, or Question commands. "Stop!" is a Beta Stop command, "Don't come any closer to me," is a Alpha Don't command. Again, the purpose here is simply to identify command types. If we understand the command types, we can make better decisions about how to form our commands to get what we really want.

I think you wrote that you "asked" these men because you were aware that you did not have the authority to enforce compliance with your commands. That is not the same as not having authority to give commands. You do have the liberty to command them. More than likely you did command them but simply described your commands as asking.

Police are not the only ones who command. Robbers, bandits, hijackers, kidnappers, hold-up men, and countless other civilians issue commands. Some are more effective than others. Robocop told the man with the MAC-10, "Drop it!" That's a Regular Beta command. The men who came to Union Station in Kansas City on June 17, 1933 armed with Thompsons commanded, "Up, up!" -- very Beta.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

What words did you use to ask in these two examples?

The bike was four years ago there's no way I can remember my exact words. Knowing me it was probably pretty close to "Hey man, hold up." It's also important to point out that the car I got out of was a clearly MARKED company car with a visible light bar on top. He knew I was there and he knew who I was.

The second guy was also several years ago but I'm pretty sure I said "Please stay back. Don't come any closer." He immediately started cussing at me and called me a punk (or maybe some other word that started with a PU) . and kept coming at me. That's when I told him to back TF up.

 

[scaatylobo]

I don't like that terminology. We're all "just citizens" but "just citizens" are who is supposed to be running this country.



I absolutely started the confrontation. I was employed by the city utility specifically to keep people like him off of Utilities property in the middle of the night. If I had done anything but stop the guy I would have been derelict in my duties.



A good way to a avoid having a powerful light in your face is not trespass on private property in the middle of the night. If you insist on going places where you know you're not supposed to be you've got to kind of expect things like powerful lights in your face. Having said that, as I mentioned elsewhere I put that light in his face on purpose. I've seen things like this go sideways way too many times. There was an incident in December of 2018 a guard who worked for the same company I do ( it's a big company, I never met the guy, he actually worked in another city) asked a vagrant to leave the private property the guard had been assigned to and the vagrant murdered him. I wanted the guy to be blind. I wanted every possible advantage I could have. Not stopping the guy wasn't an option.



Again, I was specifically hired not to let it go.




Again, Keeping. Trespassers. Off. Utilities. Owned. Private. Property. Is. SPECIFICALLY What. They. Hired. Me. To. Do. It's kind of the epitome* of "things I have to get involved with.

*
e·pit·o·me
/əˈpidəmē/
noun

1. 1.
   a person or thing that is a perfect example of a particular quality or type.
   "she looked the epitome of elegance and good taste"

As a ex cop I have to ask THE 64 Thousand dollar question.

WHAT authority was given to you,and if it was not in writing ----- it does not exist.

You could easily have "misunderstood" what was told to you as to "use of force".

And if you were not insured by your employer to take action AND use force,you were in a very bad place to start.

Before becoming an LEO, I was a armed security guard in many situations AND then an Armored Courier [ armored truck ].

So I see things from the place of a citizen & and LEO [ BIG DIFFERENCE ] according to the laws of this state.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

As a ex cop I have to ask THE 64 Thousand dollar question.

WHAT authority was given to you,and if it was not in writing ----- it does not exist.

You could easily have "misunderstood" what was told to you as to "use of force".

And if you were not insured by your employer to take action AND use force,you were in a very bad place to start.

I had very clearly written and detailed post orders. They were written by the city and I promise you a city attorney vetted them.

The city had a written agreement on file with the police department to prosecute trespassers. I did not have authority to use force to remove a trespasser and I never tried to. If I asked somebody to leave and they didn't I got on the radio and call for police backup immediately. I have the same athority to use appropriate force to defend myself as any citizen did. I was acting as an agent of the owner of the property I had every right in the world to walk up to you and ask you what you were doing on my private property and and to tell you to leave.

I've actually done this for a living for quite a while and I do kind of know the rules

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Since this discussion appears to be more about people demonstrating their internet legal knowledge by debating the exact limits of my authorities security guard instead of the original topic which was dealing with people that you know are a threat to you but home you have no legal authority to tell or ask to stop doing what they're doing I am officially requesting that it be locked