Another North Fork Tactical Update

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jag22 said:
Another thing to remember, Powder Valley had these for sale ( and sold out) so the path is there for these to be imported. I would guess they came in thru the same POE. Hopefully just a matter of getting the paper work
squared away.
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True and that they haven’t continued doing so is curious to me. Just this side of a red flag. If it were profitable, wouldn’t they keep it up?
 
jag22 said:
Another thing to remember, Powder Valley had these for sale ( and sold out) so the path is there for these to be imported. I would guess they came in thru the same POE. Hopefully just a matter of getting the paper work
squared away.
Click to expand...
I think it is probably going to depend more on the interpretations of the regulations and compliance standards by the Seattle field office BATFE agents than anything else. If those agents decline to approve again, I think that may be the end of it. If this is anything like other kinds of federal permitting, they don't have to justify declining to approve. Any review on appeal by a higher office of the BATFE is going to assume the field office had a good reason for declining to approve and move on to NFT's reason for appeal. But, like I said before and as others have noted, generally speaking federal field office employees are good people doing a thankless job to the best of their abilities and they really want to represent their offices in a positive way; but they don't want to get fired for approving something that later goes south. Career-breaking decisions NEVER arrive on your desk wearing a big red banner that reads: "WARNING! CAREER BREAKER INSIDE!"
 
CQB45ACP said:
True and that they haven’t continued doing so is curious to me. Just this side of a red flag. If it were profitable, wouldn’t they keep it up?
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It likely will continue and grow as time goes on (since I don't expect the US primer situation to improve for at least 2 years). Folks are probably testing the waters, seeing how the import rules work and learning the ropes. I doubt Powder valley is set up as an importer, so most likely they are sourcing them from someone who is importing them. Hopefully the next round will have a lot more primers and perhaps it will be a quantity that will at least make a dent in the current backlog.
 
PADoubleX said:
I'm not so sure about the 8 weeks to dispute the charge. I had a situation where my AX was charged fraudulently for airline tickets and AX refunded that. It was over a year.

I have some experience with credit cards, I as a vendor accept them, anytime there is a dispute the vendor is required to provide proof of the charge, ie a signature. That's what the chip in your credit card is all about now, fraud prevention.

I'm pretty confident I'd win a dispute if it came to that, I don't think it will. 8 weeks for a permit doesn't surprise me, IRS is quoting 12-16 weeks for an EIN.
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Kudos to your credit card company if they let you dispute a charge after a year and still honored it. FWIW, under Federal law, they only have to allow you 60 days from the date the first bill with an error was mailed to you. Failure to deliver goods is considered a billing error.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0219-disputing-credit-card-charges
 
higgite said:
Kudos to your credit card company if they let you dispute a charge after a year and still honored it. FWIW, under Federal law, they only have to allow you 60 days from the date the first bill with an error was mailed to you. Failure to deliver goods is considered a billing error.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0219-disputing-credit-card-charges
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AmEx and MasterCard typically give you up to a year. The law doesn't dictate to the lender how long they can allow as a maximum for a dispute to be filed, it only says how long they must allow at a minimum. I know how long I have to dispute the charge but seriously doubt it will be necessary. Even after decades of walking the Earth, I somehow believe in the basic goodness and honesty of my fellow human being. :)
 
packetloss said:
It likely will continue and grow as time goes on (since I don't expect the US primer situation to improve for at least 2 years). Folks are probably testing the waters, seeing how the import rules work and learning the ropes. I doubt Powder valley is set up as an importer, so most likely they are sourcing them from someone who is importing them. Hopefully the next round will have a lot more primers and perhaps it will be a quantity that will at least make a dent in the current backlog.
Click to expand...
I have to wonder if these small-time operator attempts to import supplies has caught the eye of Vista Outdoor's management team. If so, are they going to remain neutral, try to shut it down, or try to support the overall efforts? It wouldn't take more than a phone call from a VP in Vista to a director-level administrator in BATFE to quash the whole thing - not just NFT but EVERY ammo-related import from Eastern Europe. Just something to ponder idly.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
I have to wonder if these small-time operator attempts to import supplies has caught the eye of Vista Outdoor's management team. If so, are they going to remain neutral, try to shut it down, or try to support the overall efforts? It wouldn't take more than a phone call from a VP in Vista to a director-level administrator in BATFE to quash the whole thing - not just NFT but EVERY ammo-related import from Eastern Europe. Just something to ponder idly.
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It is legal to import primers/ammo from overseas. How could a VP in Vista get that shut down? Where do you think Fiocchi, Aguilla, PMC, CBC, IMI, etc. come from? If they shut that all down, there would literally be no ammo available as I haven't seen Federal, Blazer, Speer, etc. on the shelves in over a year.
 
packetloss said:
It is legal to import primers/ammo from overseas. How could a VP in Vista get that shut down? Where do you think Fiocchi, Aguilla, PMC, CBC, IMI, etc. come from? If they shut that all down, there would literally be no ammo available as I haven't seen Federal, Blazer, Speer, etc. on the shelves in over a year.
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Competition is competition. A VP in Vista is still a taxpayer and they're welcome to question whether BATFE is being more lenient on smaller operations than on big players with deep pockets. It happened in aerospace all the time. Some VP at MacDac or Lockheed would call up a buddy they served with and ask for their sub-contractors to get the same breaks as Rockwell's or Boeing's subs - on the assumption that because their subs got dinged but the other guy's didn't, there must be some favoritism going on. I'm not accusing, I'm wondering. That kind of thing happens in just about every business where the fed's are the primary regulators.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Competition is competition. A VP in Vista is still a taxpayer and they're welcome to question whether BATFE is being more lenient on smaller operations than on big players with deep pockets. It happened in aerospace all the time. Some VP at MacDac or Lockheed would call up a buddy they served with and ask for their sub-contractors to get the same breaks as Rockwell's or Boeing's subs - on the assumption that because their subs got dinged but the other guy's didn't, there must be some favoritism going on. I'm not accusing, I'm wondering. That kind of thing happens in just about every business where the fed's are the primary regulators.
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What you are describing is illegal though. Perhaps it takes place, but getting caught doing that would result in a lot more than just a slap on the wrist.
 
higgite said:
Kudos to your credit card company if they let you dispute a charge after a year and still honored it. FWIW, under Federal law, they only have to allow you 60 days from the date the first bill with an error was mailed to you. Failure to deliver goods is considered a billing error.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0219-disputing-credit-card-charges
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I don’t want to split hairs, however that’s what law is all about, the FTC says the following:

Delays
If the seller is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The seller also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free — for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.

  • If you don’t respond — and the delay is 30 days or less — it’s assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
  • If you don’t respond — and the delay is more than 30 days — the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.
If the seller can’t meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.

  • The order should be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
  • If you don’t respond to the second notice, the seller should assume that you are not willing to wait issue a full refund promptly.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0221-billed-merchandise-you-never-received
 
I’m holding for at least another update. If in 8 weeks the permit is still pending approval I will continue to hold on to my order. However, if the permit has been once again denied I’ll back out as at that point it will be over 3 months delayed without a clear path to resolution.
 
PADoubleX,
My post that you referenced was regarding credit card disputes, not shipping delays, but the info that you posted regarding said shipping delays is indeed interesting.

The latest email from NFT, posted in the OP of this thread, says that NFT will issue a refund if requested. But, the way I read the FTC info that you posted, one doesn't have to request a refund to get one if the delay is too long. A refund should be automatic if you don’t respond with your agreement to wait and the delay is more than 30 days. The original promised delivery was 3/15/2021. We're at 24 days and counting. So, the way I read it, if a customer doesn't notify NFT that they agree to the delay in the next six days, NFT must promptly issue them a refund. But, I could be interpreting it wrong.

PADoubleX said:
Delays
If the seller is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The seller also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free — for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.

  • If you don’t respond — and the delay is 30 days or less — it’s assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
  • If you don’t respond — and the delay is more than 30 days — the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.
If the seller can’t meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.

  • The order should be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
  • If you don’t respond to the second notice, the seller should assume that you are not willing to wait issue a full refund promptly.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0221-billed-merchandise-you-never-received
Click to expand...
 
Why was the application rejected and what will be different on the second application to ensure acceptance?
 
I will be maintaining my order. Noah and his family are doing what they can to do us a service. Dealing with the feds sucks. From a monetary point of view, the 10k primers I ordered would cost significantly more on gunbroker and I don’t see the primer shortage alleviating anytime soon.
 
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