Unconventional weapons

RetiredUSNChief said:

Regardless, if you think taking a knife into a gun fight is a good way to get killed, what about going empty handed?

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Paradoxically, if your opponent has a gun, you might be safer unarmed than if armed merely with a knife. If you pull out the knife, you'll be shot for sure, as the opponent feels immediately threatened. If you're unarmed, depending on what his motives are, he might leave you alone after robbing you. The answer is either to carry a gun yourself, or avoid these kinds of situations entirely. Carrying a knife for defensive purposes is just a bad idea. If, by some chance, the bad guy also has a knife (but no gun), he's likely to be far more experienced in this sort of thing than you are. So you lose either way.

My favorite is a 2011.

AlexanderA said:

Paradoxically, if your opponent has a gun, you might be safer unarmed than if armed merely with a knife. If you pull out the knife, you'll be shot for sure, as the opponent feels immediately threatened. If you're unarmed, depending on what his motives are, he might leave you alone after robbing you. The answer is either to carry a gun yourself, or avoid these kinds of situations entirely. Carrying a knife for defensive purposes is just a bad idea. If, by some chance, the bad guy also has a knife (but no gun), he's likely to be far more experienced in this sort of thing than you are. So you lose either way.

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You're making a lot of assumptions here.

I'm a weapon of opportunity kinda guy, first of all. Second, I'm not going to depend on the "good graces" of any home invader when it comes to the safety and well being of me and mine.

If a knife is what is most readily available, than I'll be arming myself with a knife. If a baseball bat, machete, wrench, scissors, worm shocker, hammer, box cutter, screwdriver, length of chain, heavy bookend, or anything else is readily at hand, I'll be scooping it up and laying to.

And if he's got a knife instead of a gun? I'm not about to go one-on-one with a knife on equal footing. Distance weapons for that. Nobody walks away from a knife fight without bleeding, so don't make it a knife fight.

Yeah...moving to a better place of safety and calling for help is always the first option if possible. But when I've got nowhere to go and the chips are down, the teeth and claws come out.

Ill tell you what is a scary "weapon" :
a scruffy looking good sized antifa type dressed young man suddenly came up behind me while my wife and I were standing in a line on a town street waiting to get into a trendy breakfast place last sunday. He turned on a blue toothed speaker in his hand pushed into my face with loud angry rap music (he was white) as he walked by and I retreated back a step to stay out of his reach , but he just kept striding by. As he passed by I noticed his slung black back pack had about a 30" yellow Halligan Fire entry bar on the side of it with velcro straps to release it ! I thought long and hard about what ifs defending myself from a young crazed street person from that fierce high grade tool! He probably purloined it from all the fire fighters that were in the Oregon woods fighting fires last fall. A 30" Halligan bar would be ferocious, no fooling around there. Yes Petunia I had my Walther PPS on me , but he came in to my space very quickly and could have cold conked me before I could have drawn.

Gordon said:

Ill tell you what is a scary "weapon" :
a scruffy looking good sized antifa type dressed young man suddenly came up behind me while my wife and I were standing in a line on a town street waiting to get into a trendy breakfast place last sunday. He turned on a blue toothed speaker in his hand pushed into my face with loud angry rap music (he was white) as he walked by and I retreated back a step to stay out of his reach , but he just kept striding by. As he passed by I noticed his slung black back pack had about a 30" yellow Halligan Fire entry bar on the side of it with velcro straps to release it ! I thought long and hard about what ifs defending myself from a young crazed street person from that fierce high grade tool! He probably purloined it from all the fire fighters that were in the Oregon woods fighting fires last fall. A 30" Halligan bar would be ferocious, no fooling around there. Yes Petunia I had my Walther PPS on me , but he came in to my space very quickly and could have cold conked me before I could have drawn.

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Definitely a fine example of something that situational awareness could alert people to, though the sudden appearance of such an individual can be easily accomplished to the best of us.

While the "sudden appearance" thing will happen from time to time, every encounter in our day-to-day life is a potential exercise in observational skills. Sitting in a restaurant or standing in line positioned for best viewing of your surroundings, watching people for various signs, thinking about "what ifs" if you see someone who might be a threat for any reason.

As a "game" (meaning "exercise of skills" during your normal routine) it can help each of us hone our skills.

Then, when an actual encounter like yours pops up, we're more likely to have a response ready if required.

I think it's also important for us to think about "unconventional weapons" from two standpoints:

- The personal need for a weapon of opportunity.
- The weapon someone else may have.

For the personal need, consideration for how WE would use such a weapon should be part of the process, because different weapons of opportunity have their pros and cons.

The flip side of the coin is how someone ELSE could use such a weapon and what the pros and cons are for that.

That can play a big role in how we respond to threats.

One of my favorite quotes (from "The Bad Guy's Quote Book") from Al Capone: "Always rush a gun and run from a knife." Tactics which guide threat response based on the weapon of the opponent. Certain weapons dictate distance as a better aspect of defense, while others warrant close quarters. A guy with a length of chain, for example, can't do much damage as an impact weapon if you're too close for him to swing.

A guy with a Halligan Fire Entry Bar? That's a scary weapon indeed. It's an incredibly dangerous bludgeon, yet pointed in wicked ways for close quarters work.

Head on swivel when in public!
We both are armed but we also have a code word / phrase to alert for perceived cause for caution.

JTHunter said:

Armored - that spike on the shovel - what purpose and how would you use it?

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Sorry that I just now saw your question.
My answer:
I added the hook as a means of dragging objects back towards me. As a fireman, we use a tool called a HALLIGAN, it has a similar but larger hook. I patterned the hook after the usefulness of a Halligan.
The hook extends my reach by five feet or more. Down in the water, or a tree limb, or even dragging a toolbox back from the front of the truckbed.
I have a low water crossing on our property that gets clogged with limbs and river drift. I can reach down from the bridge and hook debris to clear the plugged culverts.

My shovel rides in my pickup so its always nearby.

Gordon said:

Ill tell you what is a scary "weapon" :
a scruffy looking good sized antifa type dressed young man suddenly came up behind me while my wife and I were standing in a line on a town street waiting to get into a trendy breakfast place last sunday. He turned on a blue toothed speaker in his hand pushed into my face with loud angry rap music (he was white) as he walked by and I retreated back a step to stay out of his reach , but he just kept striding by. As he passed by I noticed his slung black back pack had about a 30" yellow Halligan Fire entry bar on the side of it with velcro straps to release it ! I thought long and hard about what ifs defending myself from a young crazed street person from that fierce high grade tool! He probably purloined it from all the fire fighters that were in the Oregon woods fighting fires last fall. A 30" Halligan bar would be ferocious, no fooling around there. Yes Petunia I had my Walther PPS on me , but he came in to my space very quickly and could have cold conked me before I could have drawn.

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You did the right thing by letting that incident go, but my mind wonders whether that Bluetooth could be made to fit in that upstanding young man's rectum. Then he would have good use for his yellow Halligan.

I grew up in the inner city, unconventional weapons were standard amongst the teens, by the time I was 14 I already had gotten jumped by 3 guys and ended up with a bloody nose and bruised ribs. You learn quickly that a wallet chain makes for an effective substitute to brass knuckles, or to strangle someone, or if it's long enough a makeshift mace. In the same vein a belt with a heavy buckle could also be used ward off "undesirables" another effective means of defense I've used is a piece of rebar I took from a construction site and put electrical tape for a crap grip. IWB carry wasnt uncomfortable. A fire extinguisher could also give a quick concussion or knockout when pulled off the wall in a school fight . this was years ago and I dont relish or find grandiose in those years or mindset but when you want to be left alone in an area where people want to know who you are and what you "represent" it makes for a very paranoid and observant attitude

I forgot about 2
Not rebar but a piece of stainless wrapped in leather and a plastic ruler wth a sharpened edge.

Breaker bar with a piece of pipe and a deep wall socket for my lugnuts. Easy to explain it being in the car.

JMHO- if you're carrying something that's
a regular tool or something that's been
obviously modified for use as a weapon,
you're just as well off to carry a firearm.
It used to be here that ball bats with
lanyards, pipes with an added grip such
as a wrapping of tape, boards and sticks
with nails or spikes, etc. etc. would get
you in very serious trouble with the law.
Anymore, I won't carry anything besides
firearms that I couldn't abandon and not
have to worry about retrieving it later.
No $300.00 pocketknives etc.

Some of the unconventional weapons that I've had folks try to use on me include a hydraulic jack handle, a car tow bar, a "D" battery in a toque, a broken grape stake and a stripped crank off of a bicycle (thrown like a shuriken).

24" of #3 case hardened chain and two padlocks. Separated you can take them anywhere in the world.

Then read this guys book and train in his techniques. But wear a helmet. Seriously..........

https://www.amazon.ca/Spike-Chain-Japanese-Fighting-Arts/dp/0804805407

Spike and Chain; Japanese Fighting Arts Hardcover – June 1 1968
by Charles V. Gruzanski

• Publisher ‏ : ‎ Tuttle Pub (June 1 1968)
• Language ‏ : ‎ English
• ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0804805407
• ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0804805407

geologist said:

24" of #3 case hardened chain and two padlocks.

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That'd probably be ok as long as you're
riding a bicycle or motorcycle.
The outlaw bikers around here carry that ^ ^
setup, and it would garner extra scrutiny
from law enforcement .
It's still a decent thing in that you can
toss it and not have to look back or boohoo

If you sit on the couch and look around the room, it's really quite crazy how many possible weapons you are surrounded by. There aren't many settings where you wouldn't be similarly surrounded by an armory of improvised weapons as well. With a little practice you start to see almost everything as a possible weapon or distraction tool.

shafter said:

If you sit on the couch and look around the room, it's really quite crazy how many possible weapons you are surrounded by. There aren't many settings where you wouldn't be similarly surrounded by an armory of improvised weapons as well. With a little practice you start to see almost everything as a possible weapon or distraction tool.

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But training with my wife’s antique tea pots and vases would get expensive. And I really like sleeping in our bed.

I’ll tell you something a lot of people don’t think about. And that’s braided fishing line. 30lb braid will slice you to the bone without effort. Put it between 2 T-handles and you have a 12-24” string fillet knife.

Have always been a fan of tire thumpers, car jack handles, and steel shaft golf clubs with the head snapped off.

I didn’t know about the golf club until I was playing golf with my best friend one day when shanked a shot and out of frustration snapped the head off his club. It was around the 15th hole. As he’s walking by me I popped something off about him being a crappy golfer (he is actually a scratch golfer) and he just real quick slapped it across my upper left arm. It hurt so bad my arm felt like it was being burned. That was the end of my golf game that day. 2 holes later I was still hurting pretty bad and thought I could feel raised skin through my hoodie . He told me to stop being a (word I can’t use). I pulled my arm out of my hoodie. When he saw what my arm looked like, it wasn’t funny to him anymore. He drew blood. I know he didn’t mean for it to hurt that bad. He just meant to whack me and go on like friends do. But I would heal, and I learned something about golf I didn’t know.

I am partial to axe handles because nothing beats a nice piece of hickory. Seriously, I prefer a tomahawk. Entrenching tools work too.

Right now at home, for less lethal encounters, I have my body armor, a gas mask, and 22 inches of inch and a quarter dowel with a hole drilled in one end for a paracord lanyard.

I am going to have to put something a little more accessible in my truck. I left without my six gun today and, or course, I ran into Mr. RoadRage. All I had was some pepper spray. My hand axe and entrenching tool were not immediately at hand since I store them in a compartment behind the rear seat back. I usually have a switch blade Gerber, but it was in the Jeep for some reason. Got to get enough weapons for every vehicle and stop this moving stuff around. I can't keep track.

HowieG said:

I am partial to axe handles because nothing beats a nice piece of hickory.

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I have an axe handle in the back of the truck. I use it to beat on bags of ice that are frozen together so I don't have to drop them on the ground. Also to poke things in the bed so I can reach them. Yes, its makes a nice beating stick.

hso said:

We're surrounded by defensive tools ...

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Absolutely. I've always been of the "improvised weapon" mindset, and really don't see a need to alter items to increase their effectiveness. However, the last time this topic came up I really gave some serious scrutiny to my home and office, and I realized there are literally weapons everywhere. For me the answer is simple. I have several blackthorn walking sticks that I use to hike. Where do I keep them? I simply leave them propped in a few ideal corners throughout my home where they can be easily grabbed by me if someone comes through the door. While I lack training, I can still swing them like a club, and anyone caught in the way is going to have a bad time of it.

But there are literally dozens of items on hand.

AlexanderA said:

Criminals generally have guns. Taking a knife (or other such weapon) to a gun fight is a good way to get killed.

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Really? I have never seen data reflecting that. Don't get me wrong, a gun is preferable to me, but that's not the point of the thread at all, there is no harm in having other backup weapons in mind for when you might not have a gun on you, and your statement isn't supported in any way.

Mk-211 said:

Would've been better if the bad guys had went up in flames! What a great way to protect yourself, although if the gas had found a spark, they would all be in trouble!

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I can't agree less. While I'm certainly willing to take a life to save my own or a loved one's, I can't think of a much worse way to do it than burning someone to death. Not to mention the potential collateral damage to innocents and the poor guy suffering the attack.

AlexanderA said:

Paradoxically, if your opponent has a gun, you might be safer unarmed than if armed merely with a knife. If you pull out the knife, you'll be shot for sure, as the opponent feels immediately threatened. If you're unarmed, depending on what his motives are, he might leave you alone after robbing you.

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I'm sorry but this is complete nonsense. If someone gets the drop on you, you may be better off giving them the THINGS they want, as they are replaceable, regardless of whatever weapon you may have on you. If I have a gun pointed at me and someone wants my wallet, they are going to get my wallet. If I see them coming, I'm reasonably fast, and may make the decision to deploy a gun or a knife, or a stick, or whatever. You are basically advocating a nuclear response or pacifism as your only options, and it is again based on the unproven assumption that anyone trying to rob you has a gun.

AlexanderA said:

The answer is either to carry a gun yourself, or avoid these kinds of situations entirely. Carrying a knife for defensive purposes is just a bad idea. If, by some chance, the bad guy also has a knife (but no gun), he's likely to be far more experienced in this sort of thing than you are. So you lose either way.

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Good lord. Some people can't own a gun. Some people won't carry a gun. Some people don't trust their own competence. So carrying something else is a bad idea? Those folks have to stay home? Ever here the phrase "Well it's better than nothing." If you have nothing you are at a disadvantage automatically. And just because you have a weapon, ANY weapon, does not mean using it is always the best response. Personally, I'm not going to kill anyone for the contents of my wallet, or for a phone. Those items are replaceable. If someone clearly means to kill or maim me, then you bet I'm going to fight back at the opportune moment. The one exception is with a break in. If you are in my home, I assume you mean me harm.

And how many criminals are actually taking self defense training courses? Assuming they will be more experienced than you is another bad assumption.

I always keep a breaker bar in the back of my suv. Mainly, I've had problems getting lug nuts off with the little short OEM lug nut wrench. A breaker bar easily removed the lug nuts and it is like a stainless steel baton. I also carry the deep sockets for it. Put one of those on the end and it would be like getting hit with a brick.