Absolute worst automatic pistol design in history

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tark

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I was wondering the other day what was the worst, most poorly designed, most trouble prone auto pistol ever made. Please, no smart ass replies like "A Glock, of course." I'm hoping to learn something here because my knowledge about auto pistols is mostly limited to 1911s and C-96 Mausers.

I'm guessing that a lot of you will mention one specific pistol that has a reputation (undeserved) for for being extremely dangerous. If it is mentioned, I'll explain why that reputation is largely undeserved.
 
I'm guessing that a lot of you will mention one specific pistol that has a reputation (undeserved) for for being extremely dangerous. If it is mentioned, I'll explain why that reputation is largely undeserved.
Does that mean you have the answer?

Ian Mccollum covered the Zip and that's a pretty popular failure but its also unique. I do enjoy his content. There have been some out-of-the-box thinking designs that while being ineffective and ultimately failures its hard (for me at least) to fault the attempt. Sometimes these failures build collectability. For one better example, the better known gyrojet.
On the opposite end you have to consider the time frame or period of production, the production volume of the design, the manufacturing entity, and if its a attempted knockoff in anyway. Here some eastern designs may fall into place for military 1st replacements to the revolver. There is the political aspects of such firearms being "junk" never having seen or handled one. There is the "old shame on" saying. Worst IMO should be the most lives lost depending on such weapon and then the paperweight value of a firearm. Perhaps the Japanese T94 for the first and the Hi-point 9mm for the latter?

Interesting question.
 
Not really sure what it was
A full time woman I was with for a while
brother had a small 1911 looking 32
that he'd asked me to please look over
and clean
I brought my box of stuff and the thing
looked to be from the 1930's- 1950's
was flaking nickel chips and tiny pieces
of the gun itself. Needless to say it was
fully loaded with a full magazine, and he'd
been carrying it stuffed in the front of
his britches in his belt.
Whenever I think of this, I'm reminded of
the silverado movie where he buys the pos
gun to get his gear back, and the quick
and the dead movie in the gun store.
Those guns in the movies were literally
falling into pieces.
When I racked the slide to unload it, there
was nickel bits and metal falling off.
When I got the slide off, some larger pieces
fell out and I just scooped it all up and
put it in a freezer bag and told him to
take it to a professional and/or buy
something safe and real and pick up
a holster while you're at it unless you
want to blow your junk to bits.
He stayed mad at me for a long time

I don't know what the thing was.
I don't remember seeing any letters on
it at all or any serial number.
 
Yes, the Grendel. And a whole bunch of similarly inherently inoperable semi-autos. For some reason the ‘80’s and ‘90’s seemed to be a kind of perverse Golden Age for these turkeys.
Cheap or not, I don’t understand how any one releases a design they know doesn’t work. Wishful thinking and engineering are two things that seem distinctly at odds.
 
Excellent responses. And I did get a number of posts mentioning the pistol I had in mind.. And West Kentucky mentioned the Gyrojet...which may well take the title. I had forgotten about that one. It is 11 PM here, and further responses will have to wait until morning. But I owe it to everyone to reveal the pistol I had in mind. Of course, it was type type 94. I'll explain tomorrow why its reputation isn't really deserved.
 
The type 94 nambu had an exposed seer if I'm not mistaken, that if depressed would fire the gun. Not really something that would happen under normal use, but was a thing. The Rogak was a poor copy of a good design, Colt 2000 was a decent design that didn't translate well to mass production. My vote has to be the Kimball 30 Carbine pistol. A kinda sorta delayed blowback action that didn't really delay much of anything. 30 Carbine autoloading pistol...very cool. A blowback 30 Carbine pistol...not so much. Just a bad idea from the start
Detroit's Short-Lived Kimball .30 Carbine Pistol YouTube · Forgotten Weapons Mar 29, 2018
 
Between 1897 and 1907 about eighty Mars Automatic Pistols were made and tested England. The Mars was chambered for four* very powerful calibers. All models of the Mars featured horrible ergonomics that amplified the recoil.

The British Naval Gunnery School tested it and reported no one who fired once with the Mars pistol wanted to shoot it again. It was not adopted for service use.

On the other hand, the designer of the Mars could NOT be accused of violating the patents of Mauser, Luger, Browning, or any other successful pistol designer of 1890-1909.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Automatic_Pistol

The Forgotten Weapons YouTube video is very interesting.
___
*8.5mm, 9mm, bottleneck case; .45 Short, .45 Long, straight case. Bullet had two channelures and case was crimped into both channelures to survive the Mars feed cycle.
8.5mm Mars was 139gr bullet at 1550fps m.v. for 740ft/lb m.e.
.45 Mars Long Case has been topped by .45 Win Mag.
 
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The Makarov pistols.

Heavy, low power, junk triggers. Made by peasants for peasants. Snappy things with no sights. Awful communist machining on the examples I've handled and just crude junk compared to a proper military sidearm like the M1911A1.
 
Unfortunately the progression of mechanical efficiency made the 1911 obsolete. And Browning was the one to do most of the damage. He sold the patents to Colt, and then when commissioned later in life to design a new combat pistol, he had to engineer around them. We got the Browning Hipower, which was the basis for most modern 9mm's.

When contracts were let to build more 1911's during WWII, the process of making them was so poor that Ordnance commissioned Singer to come up with a better production and fabrication flow. And, they did, well proved by Remington Rand and Ithaca. However, Singer, itself, was incapable of making them, and scrapped all but the few accepted. I nominate the Singer 1911A1 as the worst made gun ever issued.

We may cringe at the idea of some of the guns nominated, yet it's the ones that were literally bleeding red ink with laborious hand fitting and no possibility of interchangeable parts which are the real stinkers. The 1911 is an early auto pistol design with no Ordnance blueprint. That was also one of Singers early corrections - they had to backwards design a proof drawing to set standards of reproduction. Colt only had their own bits and pieces, some literally a "proof part" they copied for the next production run.
 
When contracts were let to build more 1911's during WWII, the process of making them was so poor that Ordnance commissioned Singer to come up with a better production and fabrication flow. And, they did, well proved by Remington Rand and Ithaca. However, Singer, itself, was incapable of making them, and scrapped all but the few accepted. I nominate the Singer 1911A1 as the worst made gun ever issued.

We may cringe at the idea of some of the guns nominated, yet it's the ones that were literally bleeding red ink with laborious hand fitting and no possibility of interchangeable parts which are the real stinkers. The 1911 is an early auto pistol design with no Ordnance blueprint. That was also one of Singers early corrections - they had to backwards design a proof drawing to set standards of reproduction. Colt only had their own bits and pieces, some literally a "proof part" they copied for the next production run.
First, your time line is off.

Singer was awarded a Production Study Contract in mid-1939, before Poland was even invaded. This contract was to study the current method of production and suggest improvements, study the drawings and suggest design changes that would simplify or speed production, and standardize the raw material sizes. After this study was finished and the report published, Singer was given an Educational Order of 500 M1911A1 on a production line as detailed in the production study in April 1940, in order to validate the study's recommendations.

Second, Singer produced all 500 pistols per the contract and they were all accepted by the Army. These 500 pieces were all well made and finely finished, thus validating Singer's production concept. However, in 1941 the Army was not ready to begin large scale production of M1911s, and Singer, in need of some money-making contracts accepted a contract from the Navy for the Mk 1A Fire Control Computer, which was more in line with Singer's product line*.

After Pearl Harbor was attacked, the Army decided that now was the time to begin large scale production of the M1911 and asked Singer to start full scale production. Singer declined as their factory space had converted to Fire Control Computer production. Singer did, however, provide the Government with all of their M1911 production tooling that had been used during the 500 pistol educational order. This tooling was transferred to Remington Rand and Ithaca, both of whom received contracts to manufacture M1911A1 in 1942, Remington-Rand in March, Ithaca a few months later.

Third, to state that Singer "was incapable of making" the M1911A1 is flat incorrect, they could, and did produce them. And their tooling and methods were of great value to Remington Rand, who like Singer, had never made a firearm in the history. There may have been a large number of incomplete or scrapped parts, but that is due to the Production Study nature of the first contract. In order to see if the proposed manufacture method is better, or even possible, you try it, so there will be a large number of ideas that did quite work out, and partially complete parts; there is no need to make a complete gun to see if machining one cut on a slide is better with a jig-borer or a knee-mill.

I do not second the nomination and suggest that it has been made in ignorance of what Singer's M1911A1 contract really was for, and what it actually accomplished.

EDIT:
Some of these pistols noted have actions that are based on questionable ideas, some have questionable safety arrangements, some have questionable quality, and some are just ergonomically, a disaster. These are candidates for the worst pistol.

To place the Singer M1911s, which is based on a proven and safe design, finished better than most M1911s, and whose entire production lot was accepted by the US Army, and whose production methods and drawings were used by multiple manufacturers who similarly had successful production runs, in this category, makes me wonder where you are getting your information.

________
* The Mk 1 FCC was a mechanical computer, whose innards are more resembling a sewing machine than a pistol.
 
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