Are Negligent Discharges Inevitable?

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One other thing to consider is the actual type of gun you're handling which can affect likelihood of ND. Example, I have a CZ Shadow 2 which by all accounts is meant to be a competition gun, and is built to excel in certain formats and within established rule sets of organized pistol competitions.

It is a DA/SA pistol with exposed hammer and a manual safety, however there is no decocking lever or button. To get the pistol into a condition of loaded chamber with hammer down for a double action first trigger pull, you must physically hold the hammer back with your thumb (or other finger) while intentionally pulling the trigger with a loaded chamber. This is just asking for a ND, and from what I'm told, happens with some regularity at matches with this pistol due to its popularity.
 
I've had 3 that I can remember, and they were all due to negligence on my part.

1st one was around age 12-13 with a Spanish side-by-side 20 gauge. Had my finger on one of the triggers and was walking ahead of my father and his brother-in-law (my uncle in law) and tripped and the gun went off into the ground about 10 feet ahead of me. My punishment was carrying the gun empty for the rest of the hunt through the dry river bottom of the Salt River southwest of Phoenix for the rest of the day.

Second one was in the late 80's in North Dakota. I had just finished pushing a couple of tree lines in what was probably a 25 below windchill. The need to maintain safety by removing the cap outside of the vehicle was overridden by wanting to get into the truck cab where heat and refuge from the wind was to be found. Put the CVA Hawken in the passenger side of the Ford Ranger muzzle down and attempted to remove the cap while wearing a mitten. Gun went off sending a 50 cal patched round ball ahead of 85 grains of Pyrodex through the floorboard and severing the front right brake line on the axle. Was about 25 miles to the house on gravel roads. By the time I made it home I had no brakes and was using the standard tranny to modulate speed and stopping.

Last was by far the most dangerous due to the possible consequences (not that the others weren't). 20 years back I was solo camped about 6 miles from my truck at approx 11,600 feet on a ridge in a designated wilderness area that maxed out at 12,200. As light was fading got caught in a Sept snow/sleet squall. Not a problem. I had the appropriate gear and had just cleared a boulder field and found a spot to set up the tent. Single Wall went up fast. Got in, situated....everything was good to go and decided I needed to dry off the blued .45 Colt Blackhawk I was carrying for bear protection.

From this point on I did EVERYTHING wrong although I knew better. Wiped the gun down without unloading it. Had my finger on the trigger thereby defeating the transfer bar safety :( With finger on trigger pulled hammer back to wipe down the sides. Yes I know...:( While letting the hammer down with my finger on the trigger it slipped and the gun went off. I was laying down and propped up to one side on my elbow so gun discharged while aimed down towards my feet and exited the tent wall about 2 feet to the right of them. I still think about that now and then, especially when I'm holding that gun. The thought with a .45 cal hole through my foot while I'm descending a snow-covered boulder field in the night with just a headlamp and then the 4 miles or so walk back across level ground to the truck and then capped by a 30-mile drive to closest ER is not appealing.

I fixed the tent with a small square of duct tape both on the inside and outside and after upgrading to a Mt Hardware solo tent let friends borrow it when they needed a light tent for backcountry fly fishing. The second or third time explaining to the borrower after they asked why the duct tape was there I just gifted it to the last user. Eureka Exo 2. Was glad to be rid of it. Bad memories.

Been 20.5 years since last negligent discharge (and they were all negligent...no accidental about it). They were ALL preventable. I'm working hard to keep this record going.
 
Negligent discharges are inevitable when negligence is involved long enough for Murphy to step in.

How long is that?

Might be just a single act of negligence. Might be after a thousand acts of negligence. Might be after thousands of people all acting negligently over time.

The answer is to stop acting negligently.

Safety is layered. Four simple layered rules deep, in fact. And while it may only take the violation of a single rule to have a negligent discharge, as @mljdeckard pointed out you have to violate ALL FOUR AT THE SAME TIME for someone to get hurt.

Can people screw up and unintentionally have a negligent discharge?

Sure they can.

But you know what it's called when people do that?

"Negligent discharge."

Screwing up does not make a negligent discharge an accidental discharge.

THE PLAIN FACT OF THE MATTER is that a negligent discharge is a very real possibility for ANYBODY. But they are NOT "inevitable" to any individual.

The irony is that you cannot talk yourself into believing it can't happen to you. You have to be ever vigilant about it simply because of the fact that it CAN.
 
Corpral_Agarn said:
I've never had one so... Maybe?

I will say I had a close call when I was real young, though.

I've discharged an extra round on accident in between targets during a course of fire at a match once.
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I’ve had some close calls too. I’ve put out an extra round in a match. I have also taken great care when loading and unloading a vehicle to be sure fingers are clear of the trigger guard and the safety is ON. Many years ago in the wild days of chasing the Taliban we rolled with rounds in the chamber of the M-4 and the machine guns (M240B and M2). The test fire was a needed spot to ensure we could shoot if/when needed. Such procedures are not needed when hunting upland birds, deer, or coyotes so take your damn time and don’t rush it.
NDs are avoidable.
 
Ignition Override said:
One thing that surprises me concerns the difficulty/inability to See the chamber in an HK-91, or my pair of 'assembled' PTR-91s. Possibly the same situation in C/HK-93 or MP-5?

Some highly-seasoned HK owners on Youtube (one is a Tech in “the” HK Shop: ie “Sofilein shoots G3”) -------simply 1} lock the bolt carrier open and 2} remove the mag—-

—but they Never seem to stick/Reach their pinky Finger into the chamber—-:scrutiny:

o_OThis puzzles me. I’m Unable to see the chamber in my PTR unless it is field-stripped with the butt stock etc removed. In this photo, the chamber is several inches forward of the ejection port. I'm 5'11" and it's a pretty long reach for the Pinky to Feel the chamber's circular opening.

What extra safety procedure do they follow which I missed?…although they always Pull the cocked trigger on a (possibly) empty chamber “when finished”—-

View attachment 1086506
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When I had my PTR 91 and at the range, I always did the 'release the bolt and pull the trigger with the muzzle pointed down range', like I cleared my USPSA gamers before holstering.

When working on it at home with ammo around, I locked the bolt back and used a little goose-necked LED light and stuck it in the muzzle end. If the chamber was empty, I could see light in the receiver area. Worked for me. :)
 
.38 Special said:
I went back and reread your post with an open mind, and it honestly looks to me like you were excusing NGs - that people who haven't had any just haven't been around enough guns in difficult situations, and that disagreement is self-righteous and preachy. If that's not how you meant it, then we have little disagreement.
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No, that's not what I intended to communicate; only, as others noted as well, that the more time you spend with firearms, the more the risk increases. I don't care who you are, I've seen some of the most highly trained, professional and competent people in the world have brain farts. Airplanes crash, space shuttles blow up, trucks crash, the wrong button gets pushed after years of going over a checklist and pushing the right button... Rules cannot always absolutely prevent bad results, but they can mitigate the severity of the results (i.e., failure to follow rule 3 but rule 2 is followed is the difference between the floor or a human body taking a bullet).

People can disagree with me 'til the cows come home, I don't take it personally, but I have no use for people who feel compelled to state the number of years they've been handling firearms, only to add that they never have, nor never will have, an ND simply because they "always" follow the 4 Rules.
 
True story as told to me in 1981 or 1982. I was assigned to NATO and was on assignment to Turkey. Walking the city streets one evening with my Turkish liasion I observed that at every street corner there was a Turkish enlisted with a rifle. I asked my Turkish liasion if the rifles were loaded and was assured they were. I asked him if any of the young men ever fiddled with their rifles and had an unintentional discharge.
He assured me that it only happened about once a year. He proceeded to tell me that they take the 'guilty' individual to the local socccer field and in the presence of all the other enlisted, execute him.
Does/did that really happen? :eek::eek::eek:
I don't know if it was true but the explanation was given in a calm manner and with a straight face.
Glad all of the other posters didn't experience the same punishment. :D:D:D
 
Old Dog said:
No, that's not what I intended to communicate; only, as others noted as well, that the more time you spend with firearms, the more the risk increases. I don't care who you are, I've seen some of the most highly trained, professional and competent people in the world have brain farts. Airplanes crash, space shuttles blow up, trucks crash, the wrong button gets pushed after years of going over a checklist and pushing the right button... Rules cannot always absolutely prevent bad results, but they can mitigate the severity of the results (i.e., failure to follow rule 3 but rule 2 is followed is the difference between the floor or a human body taking a bullet).

People can disagree with me 'til the cows come home, I don't take it personally, but I have no use for people who feel compelled to state the number of years they've been handling firearms, only to add that they never have, nor never will have, an ND simply because they "always" follow the 4 Rules.
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I have to agree that s---t happens. I was assigned to a remote radar site in Alaska and one Sunday the chaplain fly on on an Army helicopter. We chatted and after services he asked if I would like to fly along to other sites just for the fun of a helicopter flight. I thought that would be a nice way to spend a Sunday. Well we landed at some remote site, he went off to conduct services and when he returned we prepared for take off. The pilot would read off a checklist and the copilot would perform the action and state the action was complete. The da....m bird would not start.
They repeated the steps at least three times with no success.
Turned out that when the pilot read off one of the steps, he performed the required action and when the co-pilot reponded he also performed the required action. The pilot was turning the switch to ON and the co-pilot was turning the switch to OFF. o_Oo_Oo_O
Point being - sh--t happens no matter how many times it is done and no matter how well the steps are documented.:):):)
 
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Seems to me that unintentional discharges may be more likely in some mouse guns because the springs can be pretty stiff, the slides pretty difficult to rack, and there is precious little to grab hold of to rack the slide. My Seacamp has about 1.5 fingers of grip and is an effort to rack. I found myself gripping with one finger on the trigger guard under the barrel to have a better grip, but sometimes my finger wanted to go inside the trigger guard, which obviously would be a very bad way to rack a pistol. As the Seacamp is DA you can't put our finger in the guard behind the trigger because the trigger moves back when you rack it, so your finger will block it. I found my Kel Tec P32 much better to work with.
 
I have had one. Back in the early 1990’s

I was inexperienced with the AR rifle. Went to clear the gun. I made the mistake of “clearing” the chamber before taking the mag out first. There was still one left.

Bang! Right into the floor. Ears rang for a week.

100 pct my fault. Now I am very careful to, “take the food away before opening the mouth.” I Haven’t had one since.

Odds are odds. Even if you are 99% sure, there is still one out of every one hundred chance you’re wrong. Add in some arrogance, distractions or inexperience and they rise towards the bad side. ;)

Like the guys have said; keep that muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times. Thats for when you pull a bonehead move like me, the damage is minimized.

Stay safe.
 
mljdeckard said:
I suppose one might say they are inevitable in as much as, If you engage enough humans in any given activity, eventually one will make every imaginable mistake.
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What an unlucky soul, wonder if he ever had political aspirations…

Finger off the trigger.
Point in a safe direction.
They are all loaded.
 
Since this in about "negligence" then no, I don't think it's inevitable, it's easily avoidable. You can accidentally discharge a gun, example was when I was getting used to shooting from the trigger reset on Glocks, like most people I guess I would come all the way off the trigger, then to the wall, then fire. Upon getting used to it, there was a time or two at the range that I was at the reset point but thought I was all the way off, taking up the slack that wasn't there discharged the gun. It wasn't intentional, so we'll call it accidental, but the gun was pointed down range and all was well. Negligence is something totally different, like pulling the trigger when you're not supposed to be anywhere near it.
 
jmr40 said:
Negligent discharges are extremely rare. Many shooters have mis-defined the term. If no one was injured, if no one went to jail, if they didn't get sued, it wasn't negligent. It was an unintentional discharge. If someone claims they have never had an unintentional discharge they are lying or haven't spent much time around guns
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Interesting take.
In 50 years of shooting, hunting and competitive I've never had a negligent discharge. Not sure I've had unintentional discharges. Had the gun go off momentarily premature during competition. As in rifle sight not fully settled, too much trigger pressure, 7 ring. Or pushing too fast in a timed competition not fully on next target - miss. Not negligent - no harm done, not unintentional - I was planning on shooting. o_O
 
There are absolutely both types:

Accidental- The individual is manipulating or interacting in a correct manner and the weapon discharges. The prime example being a Remington 700 firing when taken off safe.

Negligent- When the operator initiates the discharge by failure to follow proper protocols, including allowing their weapon to be fired by outside factors, such as holstering a striker platform handgun with a jacket-cinch catching the trigger, or a hunting dog stepping on the trigger of a loaded shotgun laying in the back of truck.

In most cases, if the four rules are being followed, a catastrophic incident can be avoided (not counting any hearing damage or legal repercussions, etc.).

If you spend a good portion of your life involved with firearms, the likelihood of something occurring is definitely not zero.
 
Pistolay said:
it may never happen to you, but since the perfect, mistake free human being has never been born, it's always possible.
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230RN said:
They say the two worst sounds are a click when you expect a bang and a bang when you expect a click.
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Amen.
Sometimes you just need a wake up to learn a lesson. Like how the best answer to problem of 50 round boxes and 6 shot revolvers is not to stash the extra rounds in the cylinder and stash the revolver in a hard case. That "dry fire" going Bang is a heck of a thing. (Missing the water heater another good thing.)

Sometimes, it's the thing you "know are so" that will trip you up. Middle of a run through a shoot house is not an opportune time to discover why 3 round burst is hugely annoying. Three rounds when you wanted only one is as bad as only getting one when you expect three.
 
I put up a 9mm 1911 in my safe and unloaded and put one of the snap caps laying there in. Cocked it and aimed it at the wall as usual only it was a live round that had been laying there. I'm an RSO and am very safety conscious and let others know if they are doing anything they shouldn't be. It's a pet peeve of mine to not follow all the safety precautions.
My opinion is that nobody is perfect, nobody. Look at people the best in their fields like football or baseball players or any number of professions where people who are the best in the world at what they do and they make blatantly stupid mistakes in front of the world. Nobody is perfect.
 
brmiller said:
And that is why I always visually and physically check the chamber before pulling the trigger to release the lockwork. Someone once told me that 'assume' is just a mashup of 'ass of you and me'. I try really hard not to be that 'assume' guy. :)
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Yes that should always be the last thing you do actually verify the chamber is empty.
 
jmorris said:
If all you did everyday of your life was work with and around firearms, you would be at a higher risk than someone who never touches one their entire life.
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Let's also remember the obvious that most of the handling is done while loading and unloading. I used to have a 5 gallon clearing bucket of dry sand in my shop for this purpose.

Now, in my apartment, I have a book shelf full of obsolete books, about 25 inches worth. I can hold the gun to the side of the bookshelf while loading a round from the magazine (you're supposed to let the action slam shut, right?) or if manually uncocking, so that if one goes bang, the bullet will have to go through that many books to cause any damage. (Yes, the bullet can kite off to the side to exit, but that's pretty improbable and it would be pretty well spent.)

A question of "what was that noise?" :eek:

:uhoh: Uh-oh.

<light bulb over head emoticon>

"Oh, I'm sorry, dude. I dropped my bowling ball." :evil:

Terry, 230RN
 
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Old Dog said:
No, that's not what I intended to communicate; only, as others noted as well, that the more time you spend with firearms, the more the risk increases. I don't care who you are, I've seen some of the most highly trained, professional and competent people in the world have brain farts. Airplanes crash, space shuttles blow up, trucks crash, the wrong button gets pushed after years of going over a checklist and pushing the right button... Rules cannot always absolutely prevent bad results, but they can mitigate the severity of the results (i.e., failure to follow rule 3 but rule 2 is followed is the difference between the floor or a human body taking a bullet).

People can disagree with me 'til the cows come home, I don't take it personally, but I have no use for people who feel compelled to state the number of years they've been handling firearms, only to add that they never have, nor never will have, an ND simply because they "always" follow the 4 Rules.
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"Will never have is" an interesting to say.

Not too long ago (visiting another training facility) I was told a story of an instructor who accidentally put a 12guage slug through a wall.

For emphasis the guy telling the story peeled back a poster on the wall to reveal the actual hole. No one was injured during the event.

It can happen to even folks who it should never happen to. The moral of the story is pretty apparent.

These kinds of mistakes are good, sometimes, at reminding us that no one is immune.
 
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