Red Flag Confiscation

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My concern with RF laws is once the police confiscate the firearms, where do they store them, and who has access to them. A friend had his guns confiscated on a bogus RF notice by an ex girl friend. His entire collection of guns was taken. Over a year later, after spend thousands of dollars on lawyers and court appearances to prove his innocent, he finally got his guns back. All the guns looked like they had been thrown in the corner of a concrete basement. they were dented, scratched and rusty. His $12,000 custom Kriegoff shotgun looked like someone used it for a baseball bat. the barrels were bent and the action would not close. To say he was heart broken is an understatement. He tired to make a claim against the PD, but they just said "sorry, that just the way it goes."
 
I believe Colorado simultaneously issues a search warrant with the red flag order.
Have to go back and read it again. Whether they are enforced or not, and how, I personally don't want to find out first hand.
o_O
 
Fyrstyk said:
My concern with RF laws is once the police confiscate the firearms, where do they store them, and who has access to them. A friend had his guns confiscated on a bogus RF notice by an ex girl friend. His entire collection of guns was taken. Over a year later, after spend thousands of dollars on lawyers and court appearances to prove his innocent, he finally got his guns back. All the guns looked like they had been thrown in the corner of a concrete basement. they were dented, scratched and rusty. His $12,000 custom Kriegoff shotgun looked like someone used it for a baseball bat. the barrels were bent and the action would not close. To say he was heart broken is an understatement. He tired to make a claim against the PD, but they just said "sorry, that just the way it goes."
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That's normal. Probably had a tag identifying it (property item #) and stuffed into a 55 gallon drum or thrown onto a shelf. Most guys who work in the property room are selected for it b/c they have 0 interest in firearms. My friend worked in one (sheriff) and was often called by the police (next room) over to help them with a firearm.

He needed an attorney to sue them for trespass to chattel.

He also needed to sue the ex GF for defamation/libel. There should be consequences for false RF accusations.

Like Civil Asset Forfeiture, RF laws shifts the burden of proving innocence onto the shoulders of the accused. This is very un-American and I wish they would be struck down by the Supreme Court.
 
Spats McGee said:
I have to admit that if someone started banging on my door at 0500 and screaming that they were the police, the odds that I'd grab a rifle are not zero. I'd want to confirm that they were the police before opening the door
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I would imagine this to be the general sentiment of both legal and illegal gun owners.

I can't imagine that a confiscation order could be issued without the gun owner having knowledge. But since they're already depriving folks of due process, that may be their justification for not giving a heads up.
 
Spats McGee said:
I think the answer to that lies, in part, in whether the person received notice of the order before the police showed up at his house. In some jxs, I'd expect these to be executed pretty forcefully, and likely without prior notice to the gun owner. I have to admit that if someone started banging on my door at 0500 and screaming that they were the police, the odds that I'd grab a rifle are not zero. I'd want to confirm that they were the police before opening the door.
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bdickens said:
How about if the person has no idea and they only know it is the dead of night and their door is getting broken down?
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That’s the argument against “no knock warrants,” which has some merit. People might legit think it’s a home invasion and think they need to defend themselves.
 
Fyrstyk said:
My concern with RF laws is once the police confiscate the firearms, where do they store them, and who has access to them. A friend had his guns confiscated on a bogus RF notice by an ex girl friend. His entire collection of guns was taken. Over a year later, after spend thousands of dollars on lawyers and court appearances to prove his innocent, he finally got his guns back. All the guns looked like they had been thrown in the corner of a concrete basement. they were dented, scratched and rusty. His $12,000 custom Kriegoff shotgun looked like someone used it for a baseball bat. the barrels were bent and the action would not close. To say he was heart broken is an understatement. He tired to make a claim against the PD, but they just said "sorry, that just the way it goes."
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And then those who don't get their guns back, presumably have their guns destroyed:
https://www.michigan.gov/msp/services/ccw/public-notice-of-intent-to-dispose-of-firearms
 
Fyrstyk said:
My concern with RF laws is once the police confiscate the firearms, where do they store them, and who has access to them. A friend had his guns confiscated on a bogus RF notice by an ex girl friend. His entire collection of guns was taken. Over a year later, after spend thousands of dollars on lawyers and court appearances to prove his innocent, he finally got his guns back. All the guns looked like they had been thrown in the corner of a concrete basement. they were dented, scratched and rusty. His $12,000 custom Kriegoff shotgun looked like someone used it for a baseball bat. the barrels were bent and the action would not close. To say he was heart broken is an understatement. He tired to make a claim against the PD, but they just said "sorry, that just the way it goes."
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I had a friend who had a couple of his firearms seized, local PD thought there was something going on out of his apartment that wasn't besides maybe a lil excess partying and "suspicious" traffic, it was the downstairs tenant that was acting as an "unlicensed pharmacist". In any case, he got his .22lr rifle back after about a year or more but his Star .40cal was just.....missing. They basically told him to pound sand without apology. Aside from hiring a lawyer there was really nothing he could do except take it as a loss. He figured somebody in the small department took a liking to it.

Another side note, I had a rifle confiscated in my early twenties for a pretty bogus F&G violation and it took me forever to get it back, playing phone tag with the warden, showing up to pre arranged meeting spots multiple times just to have him no call/no show me. He just ghosted me and after many attempts I finally met him on a back road where he pulled it out of the bed of his truck and very rudely handed it over to me and walked away.

I looked it over and literally had to question whether it spent the entirety of the 7-8 months bouncing around in the bed of his pickup, rusty, scuffs and scratches all over, dings in the stock, etc.... I certainly wouldn't expect LE to have any respect whatsoever for your seized property and wouldn't hold my breath for any accountability or apology for items that are outright lost or unaccounted for either.....
 
To answer the OP's question, the paperwork will say that all firearms are to be surrendered to law enforcement and sometimes specific firearms are listed if they're known. If law enforcement has reason to believe you haven't turned them all over they'll come back with a warrant. It's going to be a little different in every state.

The best thing to do is to comply peacefully while keeping in mind that most likely you are being recorded. Don't let them film a movie of you starring as the crazy man.

Also, don't try being sly by keeping some hidden away. If they find out about them which they could potentially do through a number of different ways you now risk becoming a felon and we all know what that means with regards to firearm ownership.
 
Expect there to also be a clause in the paperwork to the effect that "law enforcement officers are directed to seize any and all other firearms that may be found during the execution of this warrant."
 
I’m more worried about my ammo in such an event. I have enough 22 to cause concern. And it’s worth more than the 22s are. Does anyone know if they confiscate the ammo? I also guess that doesn’t get returned.

I know some folks that split up. Then it was she filed an epo on him “she was afraid of him, he has guns”. Then he filed an epo on her, she “had a gun and was crazy”. I was in the middle of it sorta as I was a friend that was always around. Nothing ever happened to me thankfully. But it woke me up and now I ain’t around folks like that.
 
Bazoo said:
I’m more worried about my ammo in such an event. I have enough 22 to cause concern. And it’s worth more than the 22s are. Does anyone know if they confiscate the ammo? ....
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Too big of a question to answer, too many "theys." To answer this, we have to know the particular state, what its statutes and caselaw say, etc.
 
A little something called "Due process" gets in the way of "Red Flag Laws".

5th Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

14th Amendment
Section 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 
I know people got all up in arms about Due Process when President Trump said something to the effect of "take the guns now, Due Process later." That said, and whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent, post-deprivation Due Process has long been recognized as one acceptable way to provide Due Process.
 
Assuming one had a Red Flag accusation executed on them, and they reacted as Shafter recommended. Would it be reasonable to request an opportunity to record, through photographs, the condition of each firearm, and have the ranking officer sign for receiving the firearms in that condition, with the written expectation that the confiscating department is responsible for returning them in the same condition?

Also, would a suppressor be included in a RF confiscation, and is it legal for a police officer to take a suppressor into his/her possession if he/she is not on the trust?
 
Legally speaking, how is a Red Flag law where only one side gets to go before a judge and argue for the confiscation of firearms any different from only one side going before a judge to argue for a warrant to seize property suspected of being evidence in an ongoing investigation of a crime?

In both cases the 'victim' doesn't get their say in court until after the fact. And in both cases private property is seized and held by the state.
 
F-111 John said:
Legally speaking, how is a Red Flag law where only one side gets to go before a judge and argue for the confiscation of firearms any different from only one side going before a judge to argue for a warrant to seize property suspected of being evidence in an ongoing investigation of a crime?...
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How about the fact that no evidence of any crime, anywhere, by anyone, is needed to go forward on a RFL seizure? (to the extent of my knowledge, based on a review of some, but not all, RF laws)
 
I see RF laws being abused the most with fake suicide calls.

For example; He was talking about killing himself and he has a HUGE gun collection.(12 guns)

Who needs due process when the government is saving you from yourself.:scrutiny: That's what we need. Government to step in and save us.:scrutiny:
 
State by state laws are going to vary, but most say that once a complaint is received, there must be a hearing before a judge within 24 hours to determine if probable cause exists before firearms are deemed to be confiscated. Some states allow FFLs to hold them or family members not within same household (I don’t think that would be a safe alternative). Not a perfect answer though. It’s not a case where you’re going to be woke up to a SRT entry into your house. For the most part, you’re going to know about it. Each case will be unique. Now, if you have a history that is “questionable “ or probable cause to think something could happen, then there may be an emergency decision from the courts. And it has to come from the courts, not the police.

Colorado passed their law in 2020 and there have been 5 cases where firearms were ordered to be turned in in El Paso County.
 
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