Red Flag Confiscation

Elkins45 said:

There’s no gun listed on your KY permit. How would they know which one is your carry gun?

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I have no idea. The guy I knew that was epo’d, I asked him a put it then, which is about 8 years now and it’s very possible to be different now. When he was served they took his license and his carry gun. In other words, the gun he was wearing when they served him. I don’t know what would have happened if he’d not been carrying. Maybe he’d went to the safe and picked one? I specifically asked about his other guns and he said they didn’t mention those.

Best I recall because I asked specifically, he continued carrying a different gun, but openly since no ccdw license. I do not know the legality of doing that and he didn’t either but thought it must have been okay since he wasn’t ordered specifically against it.

hso said:

Most of you are fantasizing about doors being kicked in when it is far simpler to get the court documents and approach the subject outside of the home and request their cooperation.

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^^^ I tend to agree.

As for false reporting, your vindictive ex or the neighbor ticked because you dog pooped in his yard again, could falsely report all kinds of things. They could claim you are cooking meth, dealing drugs, etc. Then there are the accusations of sexual and physical abuse. I see kids at the school I work at, reporting abuse all the time. While sometimes it's legitimate, many times it's cause the kid got their phone taken away/got grounded and the kid decides they are going to get even. I've yet to see one of those end badly for the falsely accused. Good friend of mine a few years back, slapped his son when he told his mom to go $#*& herself. Kid ran away. When the kid was found, he reported his dad hit him. When questioned my friend admitted to slapping his son. He was immediately arrested. His wife had me come get all his firearms because of the fear he would have to hand over his firearms. It never came to that. The DA sorted things out and all charges were dropped before anything escalated. You hear very little about any kind of misuse of those laws, why would Red Flag be any different?

I have to believe that for the most part, the odds of being intentionally falsely accused of being mentally incompetent or a danger to yourself or others, is going to be minuscule. I would tend to think those folks that have good intentions along with incorrect information would be the bigger risk. The same friend that slapped his son, told the doctor after being diagnosed with terminal stage 4 cancer, he thought his best option for treatment was to go home and shoot himself. Guess who got another phone call about his guns.

If one has their guns confiscated because there are concerns about mental health, how is hiding guns and ammo going to help your case. If caught, how do you get those guns back after you are cleared(if falsely accused?). Kinda the 2 wrongs don't make a right thing.

Artg56 said:

Unfortunately vindictive people can and do lie. They also enlist friends or family to support them. Seen this play out with a coworker who’s angry ex who filed a protection order using her friends to back up her claims. Police came to workplace, seized carry weapon and escorted him home to confiscate other firearms. Long story follows without a happy ending.

This type of scenario is what I expect from the majority of red flag reporting. Even though laws may be in place to deter false reporting, I strongly doubt that they will be enforced in any meaningful way.

The potential for saving lives may exist with red flag seizures but the cost to gun owners will be high.

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^^^ Quoted for truth. THIS is how it has already been working in many, many cases with state RFLs. Now with the new fed law and the hundreds of millions of dollars that the fed is dangling out there for states and jurisdictions that make the feds happy with how they implement these gun control actions, the abuse will likely only get worse.

On the note of people saying they would hide things and not turn everything over: I know everyone here is on the up and up but keep in mind that if law enforcement has any idea that you have firearms that you haven't turned over they will get a warrant for your property and may well get a cell phone warrant as well. That cell phone warrant for your records will have your whole online life including everywhere you've gone while it's been in your pocket.

I6turbo said:

Now with the new fed law

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There Is No New Fed RFL Law.

This is hysterically being screamed by all too many.

Money is being dangled to entice States to join the RFL cohort. It ignores the ambiguous legal status RFL have over all, too.

CapnMac said:

There Is No New Fed RFL Law.

This is hysterically being screamed by all too many.

Money is being dangled to entice States to join the RFL cohort. It ignores the ambiguous legal status RFL have over all, too.

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Okay, ...with the new fed bill and the hundreds of millions of dollars [750 of them, and there's no doubt plenty more where those came from] that the fed is dangling out there for states and jurisdictions that make the feds happy with how they implement these gun control actions, the abuse will likely only get worse.

Ambiguous legal status apparently didn't have an ounce of deterrence for the police to come in and confiscate the weapons of the FFL that I know who was falsely accused by a squatter renter, nor has it done so for any of the other RFL confiscations I've seen recounted.

Bfh_auto said:

I don't even know all the guns that I have. How will anyone else? I know where they are though.

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This is something that I've been thinking about. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think that those of us with large gun collections are likely to be the targets of "red flag" orders. Age has something to do with this. It takes years to accumulate a large collection, and by that time most of your "life issues" have been resolved. Also, money. A large gun collection represents a significant investment. Not something that marginal people would have.

And hopefully, long-time gun owners have learned to be careful about attracting attention (the wrong kind) to themselves.

The stereotypical target of a "red flag" order would tend to be young, unemployed, with an unsettled family life, and mental issues or anger-management issues. And probably the number of guns involved would be few. Any thoughts?

AlexanderA said:

This is something that I've been thinking about. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think that those of us with large gun collections are likely to be the targets of "red flag" orders. Age has something to do with this. It takes years to accumulate a large collection, and by that time most of your "life issues" have been resolved. Also, money. A large gun collection represents a significant investment. Not something that marginal people would have.

And hopefully, long-time gun owners have learned to be careful about attracting attention (the wrong kind) to themselves.

The stereotypical target of a "red flag" order would tend to be young, unemployed, with an unsettled family life, and mental issues or anger-management issues. And probably the number of guns involved would be few. Any thoughts?

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I agree with you generally. I'm only a few years away from retirement, but for example I work with this just despicable woman who has made it a personal vendetta over the last 15 years to try to get me fired from the college where we work together (I'm not he only target either). The thing is, the system we have automatically triggers an investigation and the person filing the claims gets to remain anonymous. I've had to endure half a dozen of these sham investigations of various sorts over the years. The person doing the investigations knows they are BS but his hands are tied as well. And since the claimant is protected, there's really no reprisals against her for doing it over and over. But each time it gets added to my file I'm sure.

This woman knows I am a gun owner and a veteran because I do a lot of work with our veteran students, and if our state had red flag laws I have no doubt she would concoct some outrageous claim and since we work with high school and college kids it would likely get investigated. It would be completely without merit, but it would be on me to prove my innocence. This is the type of scenario I envision being carried out in liberal cities and states thousands of times when these programs get rolling. It will be neo-McCarthyism on a scale unimagined.

AlexanderA said:

This is something that I've been thinking about. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think that those of us with large gun collections are likely to be the targets of "red flag" orders. Age has something to do with this. It takes years to accumulate a large collection, and by that time most of your "life issues" have been resolved. Also, money. A large gun collection represents a significant investment. Not something that marginal people would have.

And hopefully, long-time gun owners have learned to be careful about attracting attention (the wrong kind) to themselves.

The stereotypical target of a "red flag" order would tend to be young, unemployed, with an unsettled family life, and mental issues or anger-management issues. And probably the number of guns involved would be few. Any thoughts?

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In general. But there are exceptions to the rule.

AlexanderA said:

The stereotypical target of a "red flag" order would tend to be young, unemployed, with an unsettled family life, and mental issues or anger-management issues. And probably the number of guns involved would be few. Any thoughts?

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Older, more affluent and mentally/financially stable gun enthusiasts have just as much to fear from red flag laws as younger, less stable people. These types of laws are easily weaponized by anyone with an axe to grind, either personally or politically. Make no mistake, anyone with a nice size collection of a few dozen guns and several thousand rounds of ammo is already considered a threat to society if mainstream news is any indication.

Red flag laws are the mechanism every anti-gunner dreams of having to get their "crazy" uncle's gun safe contents confiscated.

citizenconn said:

I'm only a few years away from retirement, but for example I work with this just despicable woman who has made it a personal vendetta over the last 15 years to try to get me fired from the college where we work together (I'm not her only target either).

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Yup, colleges are hotbeds for this kind of intrigue. I saw it close up, because my dad was a college professor. But he had an uncanny talent for avoiding making enemies. Not all are like that.

hso said:

Most of you are fantasizing about doors being kicked in when it is far simpler to get the court documents and approach the subject outside of the home and request their cooperation.

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This is nearly always true, but I’m not sure it matters. Swat raids have gone from a few hundred a year in the 70’s to about 50,000 a year now. So apparently someone is getting their door kicked it when they probably shouldn’t.
I went to high school with guy that literally got the door kicked in for a statutory rape charge. He was 19 at the time and lived with his parents. His little sister told me they knocked and before her dad could get from the recliner to the front door it was kicked in.

Another fascinating thing is the simple fact that red flag laws are designed to take legal action against someone who has committed no known crime. Let that sink in, imagine the conversation.

We’re from the government, we’re coming in and taking your property.

But officer, I haven’t done anything.

yes I know, but someone told us might be thinking about doing something, so please just give us your weapons. I’m sure nothing will happen to you.


The final point of interest for myself, let’s say the police come take your guns, because, well let’s just assume they got them all. What would keep you from going to the local gun shop and buying another one?
You should pass the background check, I can’t think of a legal reason you couldn’t follow the Leo’s down the driveway and buy another one The same evening. Their may be something I’m overlooking but I’m just missing it.

If you have a gun that you are legally not able to own, why?

You can’t hunt or compete with it legally. So you hide it for Self defense.
Even if the SD is legit you may get the gun felony. If the shooting is ambiguous, your illegal gun may push the jury against you.

Worrying about this very much is probably much worse than the actual, very slim chances that it will happen to "regular", non-violent etc people.

Don't get me wrong - I detest some of the potential implications.
It's certainly anybody's right to worry themselves sick . If that accomplishes something, then 'go for it.'....

Some of the victory of the anti-gunners behind this bill consists of psychological warfare.
Don't let them oppress you by default.

Not to state the obvious but, I’d rather have a felony than a casket.

However the point isn’t what one can and can’t do, it’s how pointless the law is. If someone wants a guns, in our current state of affairs they can get one. That was my, likely poorly communicated, point.

People that legitimately need to be red flagged can just go get another gun, it may take a couple days but removing the tool and leaving the evil guy will not work… he’ll just find another tool.

Ignition Override said:

Worrying about this very much is probably much worse than the actual, very slim chances that it will happen to "regular", non-violent etc people.

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The chances are not that slim when you look at the number of frivolous restraining orders filed against completely peaceful men during divorce proceedings "as a matter of course" by disgruntled/vindictive wives who want to paint the worst picture possible of their husbands to get the most favorable divorce settlement. It's happened to several friends and family members of mine and is actively encouraged by divorce attorneys advising women through the process.

General Geoff:

those odds now seem impossible to quantify with so many people who need “ to get even”.

That can certainly takes property, or child custody battles to a meaner level.

General Geoff said:

It's happened to several friends and family members of mine and is actively encouraged by divorce attorneys advising women through the process.

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Fortunately my ex was inebriated when she showed up to court with her state appointed lawyer, that I didn’t qualify for. And an addiction advocate, and socialwelfare worker, and shelter advisor.
Had she not been embarrassingly incoherent, I’d not be a member here, if you catch my drift.

They were all whispering in her ear at the hearing, she still couldn’t get it right.
All paid by the state. All telling her to lie, that I was abusive. If anything I was a weak, hopeful enabler. In the end I traded a mini-van to her for my children…
This is the state of mind most of the accusing will be in. Save for the ones that are politically motivated.

She wanted the rifle my just passed grandfather left to me destroyed.
I hadn’t even seen it yet. It was yet to be executed from his estate.

Michigan likes to destroy confiscated firearms as noted above.

Due Process? The Process is the Punishment.
Also as noted above.

What happens when the judge is not so level headed, or even sympathetic to “the cause”?

Thankfully my magistrate was not so blind, or predisposed.

AlexanderA said:

This is something that I've been thinking about. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think that those of us with large gun collections are likely to be the targets of "red flag" orders. Age has something to do with this. It takes years to accumulate a large collection, and by that time most of your "life issues" have been resolved. Also, money. A large gun collection represents a significant investment. Not something that marginal people would have.

And hopefully, long-time gun owners have learned to be careful about attracting attention (the wrong kind) to themselves.

The stereotypical target of a "red flag" order would tend to be young, unemployed, with an unsettled family life, and mental issues or anger-management issues. And probably the number of guns involved would be few. Any thoughts?

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Probably true in general but I've seen an elderly gentleman's 30+ firearm collection seized due to a brief outburst.

And how nice the Aged have it to think they’ve shown through the years that they’re fine.

There’s never been angry old men, or dementia patients, right? And when they don’t understand why they have been targeted it’s all the more reason to take the firearms. Because they have a nice and extensive collection, they won’t go bonkers and “head to Vegas” to go out with a bang, right?

No, those should be the most afraid. The process is the punishment. After all is wrung out you will be vindicated as a fine and upstanding citizen. You will have to prove it yourself though. There won’t be any state appointed attorneys available. You’ll have to self fund, but that’s okay, your rich, you have guns.

But! You beat the charge! You said you weren’t crazy, and they actually believed it! Not to worry, there are safety valves to prevent corruption of the Red Flag! Penalties for wrongful accusations. And let us assume the court sees that the accuser wasn’t just concerned and waives charges. Let’s pretend they think they are just a hired political henchman. And before your accuser is even bailed out by the next VP, your steel will have already been recycled…

But no worries! You were clean! Your firearms will be given fair market value in tax deductions!
Lucky you…

(1) O/U shotgun, kreighoff, 12 gauge, used. - $400
(2) Black powder pistols,dueling, (pair w/ box), used. - $75 ea.
(1) rimfire pistol, “Woodsman”, 5 magazines, antique. - $25
(1) shotgun, A5. (Automatic, contraband, fine issued.)
(1) pistol, Colt, 1911. (Automatic, contraband, fine issued.)
(1) rifle, Savage, rimfire. 6 magazines. Used - $100
(1) rifle, Windham, centerfire. (Automatic, contraband, felony warrant issued.)
(4) magazines, centerfire. (High capacity, contraband, felony warrant issued.)
(127) ammunition, centerfire, 223. (Exceeded storage limit(27), fines issued per round.)

Thank you for filing your taxes online!
Please remit immediately. Returns will be at our earliest convenience.

Nah, we all hang together with this one. There won’t be doors being kicked in. You have to prove it or we put a lien on all your finances. We’re the government remember? You’re not innocent to us. We’d rather screw you than kill you, but we’ll do that too. After we take your kids away at school because you are a dangerous homeland terrorist. Or is it insurrectionist?

Being paranoid comes easily to me. Because history.
But, is this now ammunition for my own Red Flag?
Will my first right make my second void?

shafter said:

Probably true in general but I've seen an elderly gentleman's 30+ firearm collection seized due to a brief outburst.

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That can’t be right. The last elderly man I saw have a brief outburst became president! I think him and his son kept their weapons too.

AlexanderA said:

The family members that typically initiate a "red flag" procedure presumably know what guns the person has. So this is not as difficult as it seems.

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There are no members of my family that know what, or how many guns I own.
I do not hide anything, but It is also not like we have weekly family meetings to discuss what is being purchased in any category by any family member.