Why aren't lasers more popular on handguns?

DeepSouth said:

I’ve always been told in AL it’s illegal to hunt with lasers. I’m not sure if that’s a common law or not. I’m not even certain it’s true here, I’ve never actually looked into it, but it certainly is believed to be true around here.

Just a word of caution, before someone starts hunting with lasers they may want to check state laws.

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Pretty wild but it looks to be correct info depending on Location and what animals your hunting. Kind of a silly law IMO. Not sure where that stems from (poaching maybe). My grandparents were not law breakers but they had the attitude that if they were hunting on their own land they would do what was necessary.

Great heads up though, Nice post.

Just my experience, I have a CT grip on a SD used SW 642 revolver. I found that the red dot is invisible at any distance in bright sunlight at anything but close. Looking for it would be slow if my fire was aimed as it usually is. If I get my good grip, the irons are aligned anyway. So, that leaves close up entangled, off standard position usage which could be useful.

My long arms all are RDS optics and one Glock is, Given some aging eyes, I'm working up the RDS on a Glock 17 and it doesn't have a distance drop off as the laser would.

Interestingly, in our last match, a guy running a PCC had a green laser on and a RDS. I asked why - since he is a speed gamer, his argument was the with really close targets, he could use the laser and it worked for positions where he didn't bring the gun to full slight alignment.

That being said, it works on my pocket gun. I did shoot a close in match with it and did find, I was wasting time looking for the dot when I could just align the gun from my usual draw and just shoot.

Not really enough time to truly decided but that's my experience.

starling said:

Pretty wild but it looks to be correct info depending on Location and what animals your hunting. Kind of a silly law IMO. Not sure where that stems from (poaching maybe). My grandparents were not law breakers but they had the attitude that if they were hunting on their own land they would do what was necessary.

Great heads up though, Nice post.

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We have had lots of old and silly hunting laws, many have been changed in the last couple decades. As far as the lasers go, people say it’s caught up in some kind of “can’t hunt with weapon mounted lights” law.
One day I may look into it.

GEM said:

Just my experience, I have a CT grip on a SD used SW 642 revolver. I found that the red dot is invisible at any distance in bright sunlight at anything but close. Looking for it would be slow if my fire was aimed as it usually is. If I get my good grip, the irons are aligned anyway. So, that leaves close up entangled, off standard position usage which could be useful.

My long arms all are RDS optics and one Glock is, Given some aging eyes, I'm working up the RDS on a Glock 17 and it doesn't have a distance drop off as the laser would.

Interestingly, in our last match, a guy running a PCC had a green laser on and a RDS. I asked why - since he is a speed gamer, his argument was the with really close targets, he could use the laser and it worked for positions where he didn't bring the gun to full slight alignment.

That being said, it works on my pocket gun. I did shoot a close in match with it and did find, I was wasting time looking for the dot when I could just align the gun from my usual draw and just shoot.

Not really enough time to truly decided but that's my experience.

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That guy has it right. They are not meant to replace iron sights or even red dots just give the firearm more versatility in different conditions where iron sights cant be used as effectivley. For me I wont use anything that obstructs the iron sights as that is what you are going to be useing maybe 95% of the time if you are a regular shooter. Even my magnified optics (or non magnified red dots) on rifles have see thru rings setups for the irl defike aons.

Something like a deffensive handgun there is no telling what kind of position or conditions you may end up in so having and understanding how to use a laser just gives more versatility to be accurate. You may not have the luxery of your prefered shooting stance, lining up your head with the sights/red dot etc. etc. Point shooting in a major crisis? Better be very close unless you are some sort of jedi. Nerves do strange things to the body. Anyone who has ever been in a competitive environment can tell you that let alone a life threatening one where people are shooting at you or your loved ones.

All this point shooting talk is kind of rediculous IMO. Point shooting on a safe and controlled range is one thing. Point shooting in a public area with innocent people is kind of hollywood fantasy. Its certinly not something I would brag about relying on when in a life threatening crisis. Thats kind of a recipe for recklessness that quickly leads to stray bullets and bullets hitting things you dont intend to hit.

My shooting goes straight to hell when I start looking at the target, whether it be with irons or a dot. With a laser, there is no choice but to look at the target, so I revert back to my first few months of shooting: waiting for the sight to wobble across the target, yanking the trigger when it does, and missing by a mile. The only kind of shooting I can do well while focusing on the target is point shooting, either from the hip or with the gun below my line of sight - and it wouldn't surprise me if a laser screwed that up for me too.

So while I have nothing against some other guy using one on his gun, for me they are nothing more than an amusing novelty.

Some of my dry fire practice is without getting the sights in line with my eyes, like shown in this video.

Added bulk, weight, and expense = lots of checks in the “cons” column.

Functional misalignment between visual focus on the target rather than front sight or reticle is another “con.”

Unnecessary for the majority breadth of the practical application is another “con.”

I love lasers for customers/students which are farsighted. Crisp visible dots on the target is better than fuzzy sights, even if it does defy principles of conventional marksmanship.

I have lasers on a couple of my defensive pistols. Combo laser light on my Maxim 9, laser grip on my SRH Toklat 454c, integral laser guide rod on one of my G17’s, laser guard on one of my LC9’s, laser grip on one of my SP101’s… for that minority niche.

I willingly spend money more frequently on tritium sights than lasers.

The majority of the laser-bashing that I see on gun forums seems bizarre to me, and makes me wonder if these people ever actually used a decent green laser like a Crimson Trace CMR 203 or 206 (shown on a couple of the guns below).

The main reason I like a laser for HD situations is that I can hold my POA precisely without focusing on the iron sights. In such a situation, one of the most important decisions one might make for the rest of their life is whether or not to pull the trigger. I would hope that situation never arises, but if it did, I want to be able to focus on the target to see what the target is doing so that I know whether or not I have to pull that trigger. I do NOT want to be distracted at all by focusing on the iron sights or even a red dot. With a laser you can focus your vision on the subject and exactly what the subject is doing, while at the same time maintain a precise aim without looking at the gun or the sights. I would not have an HD handgun without a laser of this type on it.

Beyond that, some of the hate-claims that I see being made against lasers do not fit with my experiences at all:
- Laser is difficult or somehow distracting to turn on and turn off. -- I don't understand this because the wing-switch is immediately in front of the trigger (there's a switch on each side, so it doesn't matter if your left-handed or right-handed). If you can't quickly learn to use this device, I'm not sure you can use a safety or a hammer.
- Laser dot is hard to find. I REALLY don't understand this one because the laser dot co-witnesses the iron sight POA within the ranges that one would use the laser. If you can't immediately find the laser dot, just look where the iron sights are aiming and your dot will be there. How can this be an issue???
- The laser dot exposes my shaky aim. So? It doesn't exacerbate the shaking, it only exposes it. Possibly the laser will help you reduce shaking if it makes you aware that you aren't holding a precise aim.
- Can't see the laser dot in the sun. A green laser is visible on most surfaces in direct sun, MUCH more so than a red laser. But for HD situations bright sunlight is rarely an issue, plus there are always the iron sights if needed.

Here's a magazine full of rounds fired from the P-01 above (top right) from 11 yards with the laser. I don't shoot handguns a lot, and am not a great shot. But shooting a target like this with the same gun using the iron sights (instead of the laser) gives me less than half the accuracy in about twice the time required to put the rounds accurately on target with the laser.

I6turbo said:

- Laser dot is hard to find. I REALLY don't understand this one because the laser dot co-witnesses the iron sight POA within the ranges that one would use the laser. If you can't immediately find the laser dot, just look where the iron sights are aiming and your dot will be there. How can this be an issue???

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Simple. People look for the red dot and then chase it to the target. That is just how many people are, plain and simply. If they wanted to use their sights to find the laser dot, they could just use their sights to find the target, huh?

I6turbo said:

Here's a magazine full of rounds fired from the P-01 above (top right) from 11 yards with the laser.

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Well, nobody has suggested, I don't believe, that laser sights are not accurate for targeting. No doubt you can shoot stationary, well contrasted targets with one.

By the time I get my pistol into position my iron sights are pretty much on target, and I just need to fine tune the sight picture. I don't start searching for my sights by waving the barrel around tilli see the front sight. Pretty much the same when I use the laser. It is mostly on target by the time the gun is in position. And I find transitioning from target to target faster and easier with a laser.

Varminterror said:

I love lasers for customers/students which are farsighted. Crisp visible dots on the target is better than fuzzy sights, even if it does defy principles of conventional marksmanship.

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That's me wearing my progressive lensed glasses. Which I've had to do since my mid-40s.

I'm actually nearsighted, and I can see handgun sights just fine if I'm not wearing the aforementioned glasses. But in so doing, the target will be a bit blurry to a whole lotta blurry.

Double Naught Spy said:

Simple. People look for the red dot and then chase it to the target. That is just how many people are, plain and simply. If they wanted to use their sights to find the laser dot, they could just use their sights to find the target, huh?

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That can be unlearned with practice. Actually, it's best to start off learning it correctly from the beginning. All the mention of cat toys in the thread tells me that some folks in the gun shooting world act like cats since they chase the dot instead of putting it on target.

It's really simple. A shooter looks at the target while bringing the gun up and watches the laser dot appear on the target. Not much different than a red dot in that regard.

And speaking of red dots and front sights. When I show others how to use a handgun red dot for the first time, I tell them to find the front sight and bring it down in the window until the red dot comes into view. Otherwise, they are just huntin' and peckin' for that red dot until they get their practice up.

I have a laser on my Ruger LCR, laser grips for my Kahr K9 and K40, and StreemLight TLR 6 on my Shield Plus. If I want to use it, it's there; otherwise, it's not hurting anything by being there. It also has been a big help and informative for inexpensive shooters who I have shown how to shoot.

Smaug said:

I read a recent thread about "do you use a red dot on your carry gun?".


A good laser like CTC is expensive, (+ ~$200) but also reliable. They are now built into high quality grips that don't make the gun appreciably bigger or harder to find a holster for.

Do people not trust them or just not want to spend the coin on them?

Or are they just less available, with integral polymer grip frames being so common now?

For my part, I have one on my home defense gun, my 3" 357 SP-101. I figure it's automatic, works in the dark, no need to acquire any kind of sight picture, and I can even shoot it accurately from the hip if needed. But that's a revolver without integral grip. If I got one for my XD-45 Tactical, it would either be rail-mounted or have some kind of wrap-around grip that would make it too big.

Is that what's holding you guys back, or cost or something else?

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Why not?

Cost, and holster availability.

A good laser costs. MSRP way over $300 for a CT Lasergrip. I want one with automatic activation, which pretty much means Crimson Trace. (I know, Hogue makes a few now, and Viridian makes one for Taurus small frame. Not for the variety of guns that CT does.) I got good deals on 2 revolver lasergrips, that I use, and one XDS laserguard (that I don't use, see below).

Holster availability. Having a good holster is more important to me than having a laser. Adding a laser makes your holster selection go way, way down. Even a popular gun and popular laser. For a laser like I want (see above) that mounts to the front of the gun, you must get a holster to accommodate it. For the CT XDS Laserguard I mentioned, nothing I tried had very good retention, even the Blade-Tech Klipt that CT itself sells for that very gun+laser combo. I got tired of spending on it, and just left the laser off. Maybe some other day.

The usual laser one sees, bolted on the Picatinny rail on the front of your pistol, with a manual activation switch, just seems like a poorly integrated wart on the system to me. And touching the manual switch on purpose is just one more thing you'll forget to do in a high stress situation.

lee n. field said:

Why not?

Cost, and holster availability.

A good laser costs. MSRP way over $300 for a CT Lasergrip. I want one with automatic activation, which pretty much means Crimson Trace. (I know, Hogue makes a few now, and Viridian makes one for Taurus small frame. Not for the variety of guns that CT does.) I got good deals on 2 revolver lasergrips, that I use, and one XDS laserguard (that I don't use, see below).

Holster availability. Having a good holster is more important to me than having a laser. Adding a laser makes your holster selection go way, way down. Even a popular gun and popular laser. For a laser like I want (see above) that mounts to the front of the gun, you must get a holster to accommodate it. For the CT XDS Laserguard I mentioned, nothing I tried had very good retention, even the Blade-Tech Klipt that CT itself sells for that very gun+laser combo. I got tired of spending on it, and just left the laser off. Maybe some other day.

The usual laser one sees, bolted on the Picatinny rail on the front of your pistol, with a manual activation switch, just seems like a poorly integrated wart on the system to me. And touching the manual switch on purpose is just one more thing you'll forget to do in a high stress situation.

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Get a custom leather or kydex holster made and be done with it. If a holster of highest quality is your goal, then going this route shouldn't be a problem. If it's a Glock, M&P, P320 or P365, or any popular make/model, there's a good chance that a quality holster maker already makes holsters for it. Yes, there maybe less options to choose from, but their are still good quality options to choose from.

I have Crimson Trace lasers grip panels on my Kahr K9 and K40 that automatically turn on when the gun is gripped and doesn't need any special holster, so that is also an option for popular pistols like 1911s that utilize grip panels.

If one can clear malfunctions, drop and insert mags, drop slides, line up sights and aim, draw a gun and get on target, pull the trigger multiple times and stay on target, and/or can proficiently manipulate a handgun in general in a stressful situation, one can manage to press a button to turn on a light or laser... It's called training and muscle memory.

I have a Laserlyte brand on my littleRuger LCP Mounts to the side and takes up no room in the holster.

TO ADD, I don't like add on lasers that are bulky and heavy. The side mounts are VERY light. On a mini gun the sights are useless

Aside from the reliability issues over time, and the lack of suitable holsters, I find a laser sighted handgun just too bulky for any reasonable carry wardrobe. Bulky with a beam that's difficult to see in daylight conditions, combined with reliability and weight issues makes them a non-starter for my use. Best regards, Rod

Polymer frame guns are the main reason for the bulk of adding a laser, plus the added weight of maybe one or two cartridges worth.

Some old school metal frame guns take on a laser with ease, and the weight of a laser grip is negligible since the grip is being replaced. The trouble with laser grips is that fewer and fewer makers are providing options for the metal framed guns as the market is drying up due to poly guns and the popularity of red dots.

I think certain revolvers make use of laser grips very well. No holster worries and no weight increases. But revolvers are low capacity machines in a higher capacity world.

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He makes a great point about carjackings.

How do lasers do through glass ?

chicharrones said:

Some of my dry fire practice is without getting the sights in line with my eyes, like shown in this video.

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C0untZer0 said:

He makes a great point about carjackings.

How do lasers do through glass ?

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I haven't checked that in a while. I'll get right back to you.

Edit:

Just tried it in two cars through all windows from the driver's seats. The laser goes right through with no effort. There is a dot on the glass and an accurate* dot on the "target". Again, the key is to focus on the target and not to chase the dot.

The laser does get reduced going through dark window tint a bit, but it's still visible on target.

Of course, I didn't test this in bright sunlight. That would wash out a red laser. Should get a green laser for daylight like shown in that video.

*Lines up with the sights.

I have a set on my LCR IMHO they make a much better training aid for honing your trigger press and point shooting ability than actual practical use in a self defence scenario.

The cats kept attacking while target shooting…been through too many cats to continue using them

12Bravo20 said:

One thing I have not seen anyone mention yet is being able to see and properly identify your target. All the talk about using a laser in dark situations does no good if you can't ID the target. This is where a good weapon mounted light comes into play. There are lights with built in lasers for those that want a laser.

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You must have missed my post

Having had my fair share of opportunity to observe shooters using lasers on guns at our range, and occasionally in some outside training class (where the laser units sometimes stopped working at some point), I'm not surprised that lasers haven't exactly dominated the market as a popular option.

Then, add the cost, and the difficulty in actually aligning the POA/POI for some units, and how the laser dot can easily disappear in various light conditions, especially against various 'backgrounds' - and with any 'target medium' movement - and it's been unsurprising to see some folks frustrated with them.

Lastly, there's commonly been a noticeable 'lag time' observed watching shooters (on a qual clock) trying to find and place the laser dot against even a uniformly colored, stationary range target background. Once movement becomes involved, whether on the part of the shooter or the 'target medium', most folks I've watched have demonstrated being a lot slower in being able to get off shots. Waiting and looking for that laser dot confirmation seems to really use up time for folks.

It wasn't like it was a rare thing to find LE agencies who developed policies that prohibited the use of lasers on both duty and off-duty weapons, in the interest of the safety of their people.

Now, WML's (weapon mounted lights) and RDS have come a long way, and they're seemingly more readily acceptable, as well as practical ... but it's still prudent to get training in the effective employment and usage of both.

Just my thoughts.

I think the last laser-equipped handgun I saw brought to our range was when S&W introduced their M&P Bodyguard 38 Crimson Trace snub. One of the instructors had bought one for his wife, at her request, and he'd brought it to the range to check it out before she started using it. Even after he dialed in the laser (POA/POI), the time of day on the outdoor range where we were test-firing it involved some interesting shadows produced by trees and wind. The contrasting black/white, off-white and grey backgrounds of the silhouette targets made it difficult to identify the laser dot, especially when the shadows cast on the targets were moving due to the wind blowing through the trees. We didn't get out any of the all-color, large picture threat targets that afternoon, but I'd imagine that the combination of bright and subdued colors might've introduced further difficulties in seeing the laser dot.

I knew another very senior instructor who equipped his S&W 342 Airlite with a laser. He explained he only used it in anticipation of it hopefully being helpful in very close range distances, hoping to see the laser dot if using a hip/close combat grip technique in certain light conditions. I certainly didn't gainsay his thoughts.

Visible light lasers are kind of the opposite of red dots. I think they're marginally helpful at close range from imperfect shooting positions, but inferior at range.