Gun Safes - Any secrets

Too bad this place doesn't have a quote function as it would make it easier to address things.

Click to expand...

Hmm..

it is an investment, treat it as such. you dont want the cheapest thing you can buy, that will get the job done. save that mentality for lawnmowers. also, buy one that is AT LEAST 50% larger than you THINK you will ever need. between buying more guns, and finding other stuff that you want to keep safe, it will fill up faster than you think!

A couple more thoughts here. Too bad this place doesn't have a quote function as it would make it easier to address things.

Click to expand...

There is. You just have to copy, paste, highlight the text, then click on the little cartoon looking text bubble on the little toolbar at the top.

I've had very few problems with LaGard locks over the years. This goes for both mechanical and electronic locks. The only electronic locks I've dealt with which proved to be problematic were those made by Kaba Mas.

Click to expand...

This has been my experience as well. As far as electronic locks, I have had far better results with the LaGards than the S&Gs. Of course Kaba now owns LaGard.

Third, what I said about warranty and homeowner's is very much true. I'm surprised to see the comment about a Liberty safe being replaced without regard to independent homeowner's insurance. I know of an instance where a guy had a Liberty safe go through a fire, and he tried to pull a fast one by getting them to honor their warranty despite the fact his homeowner's already bought him another one. I know this because I stored the damaged safe for the guy through a second party.

Click to expand...

A manufacturer will buy you a replacement safe and pay for shipping. An insurance company will pay for the safe and shipping AND removal and disposal of your old safe AND installation of your new safe. In many cases, they will also pay to open the safe.

These gun safe manufacturers are at the top of their marketing game. They know exactly how to push the buttons of consumers, and dazzle them with useless benefits while distracting them from what's really important.

As for why anyone would hesitate to file a claim for a burned up safe, I don't have a clue. It's not like it's going to matter in the overall scheme of things if your house burns down. Personally, I would point out to my insurance company that the safe was covered by a separate warranty. Then I would let them deal with the manufacturer.

Click to expand...

I don't think I've heard of any other item in a house being covered by the manufacturer for theft of fire. Yet people shopping for gun safes are so caught up in this warranty business.

The lock won't function properly if they are not level

Click to expand...

If the lock was assembled properly and installed correctly, it should function fine regardless of its orientation.

same with the locking system (bolt pressure)

Click to expand...

This can be true, but most bolt pressure issues are caused by poor design.

the door may chase you or slam shut on an out of level safe. Neither is good.

Click to expand...

This can hurt a person or damage property easily. On commercial safes you could really hurt yourself (think missing fingers). A heavy vault door could cause even more serious damage.

I think Bass Pro has the best safes for the money.

I spent $750 on mine and it is pretty nice. Cabela's is higher for the same types.

JMO.

You just have to copy, paste, highlight the text, then click on the little cartoon looking text bubble on the little toolbar at the top.

Click to expand...

I always wondered how to do that on this board... thanks.

Fella's;

I've been lurking on this thread; thought it was time to chime in.

BG&K stated: "Statistically you are more likely to lose your gun to theft than fire. No matter what the fire rating is on a safe, it will NOT PROTECT YOUR CONTENTS in the event of a full house fire. The fire seals on the doors don't expand until the heat gets high and the damaging smoke has already ruined the contents. The overall heat in the end will rust the barrels, char the wood, and melt the plastic. I've seen the best fire safes hold up in a fire, but the contents...not so much. I am a fireman, Station 940 Kansas. Protect from theft by bolting it down and hope for the best."

I'd invite him, and anybody else interested in good fire protection, to go to www.graffundersafes.com and examine the photos of Graffunder's that have gone through total loss building fires.

Graffunder uses a proprietary concrete/vermiculite insulation in the walls of their safes. The outer skin is, at minimum, a 1/4" A36 tool steel plate, then there's a 1.5" layer of insulation, and finally, there's a continuous inner layer of steel. Graffunder's are true safes, not RSC's, and are therefore more expensive. However, you actually get the protection you're paying for.

On locks, and I'm a professional locksmith, beware of logo imitation. We're noticing that import safes will have little LaGard (LG), or Sargent & Greenleaf (SG) look-alike logos on the lock that are just enough different from the real thing to cause confusion without presumably causing lawsuits. The locks under the logos are not LaGard or Sargent & Greenleafs.

And, as has been stated several times above, do get a unit that's larger than what you think you'll need. The cost of a protected cubic inch of space goes down rather steeply as the size of the safe rises. My concern though is the ad-garbage that makes people think they've got "Bank Quality Protection", when what they've really got is a run-of-the-mill tin-can RSC. True, anything's better than nothing, but at least make an informed decision when you buy & know what you're buying when you do get an RSC.

900F

Are there any secrets to the purchase of a safe? I

Click to expand...

Yep, buy a very big one.

I realize you're probably joking. The doors and bodies of most gun safes will not stop a bullet.

Click to expand...

Against 9mm, 45acp, or buckshot, I consider it to be fair cover. Googling mine shows it to be 3/16" thick. I also have 14 radially positioned 1" thick bolts along with the associated locking mechanism behind that door.

Given my ballistic experience I believe an angled shot would be deflected to a great extent. Due to the configuration of my room all I expect anyone to get is a 45° angle at best. Any bullet penetrating that plate would still have to negotiate the locking mechanism. That is a substantial feat, anything reaching me would be highly depleted of energy.

You are absolutely correct, it is not the perfect hard cover. It is however better than nothing and without a doubt prevents anyone from putting sights on my vitals. Once it is game on and I get into that safe anyone intending me harm is in a world of hurt because of what I keep in there regardless of the cover it provides

I researched gun safes for well over two years before i finally paid the Piper.
I googled plenty on gun safes which is exactly how i found this web site.
What I finally concluded was to stay away from the 12 gauge bodied gun safes unless your home is really secure and it's to basically keep the little kids away from the contents inside the safe.
Although i have read many times here that you can get into a 12 gauge gun safe with a screw driver myself i highly doubt it.
Some 12 gauge safes are weaker than others so i certainly do know that a strong guy(s) with a three foot crow bar probably could on some but again not likely at all with a damn screw driver.
Doors....This issue started catching my attention rather quickly as i did my research.
A Champion dealer offered me a Crown series model 40 that had a big scratch on the body for a really good price.
However he could not give me any info on the amount of steel that the composite door was made up off.
After two tries finally Champion safes e-mailed me that the Crown composite door had a ten gauge outer skin and a 3/16 of an inch plate backing.
Sorry not enough steel for me.
The Liberty Lincoln was even more flimsy.
Of course their top of the line Presidential claims to have a 1/4 inch backing on the door but after looking at their very own website and seeing them build a gun safe I became very disenenchanted with them after seeing the way that plate(it was in two pieces if a remember correctly) and i could not tell if it had even been welded to the door backing.
Give me plate steel.
At that point your choices get narrowed down to American Security,Ft.Knox,Sturdy,and Heritage.
There are others out there that use plate steel on their doors but since they had no dealer network here i passed on them.
Hinges....If it does not give you a full 180 degree swing i dont want it.
That means a gun safe with outside hinges.
Note,you can order a Ft.Knox safe with outer hinges at no additional charge.
Locks...In our world of computers and other push button electronic gack that makes peoples lifes very fast a lot of people opt for electronic locks.
I will pass here as well.
The very thought that one day some locksmith is almost surely going to have to come out and drill my safes plate steel door because of the electronic lock giving up the ghost is more than i could bare.
Fwiw i can get into my UL rated group II mechanical lock in under 15 seconds.
And at different gun safe dealers i could get into a safe in under 5 seconds using the electro wonder but this story reminds me of the old Tortise and Hare race.
Body...Myself i would not want a gun safe that was less than a full 1/8 of an inch body and 3/16th of an inch would be even better.
Problem is that the over all majority of gun safes with 3/16 th of an inch body thickness easily breaks the three grand price tag.
Fire rating...This is over rated in the majority of gun safes but i still would not own one without it.
Some protection is better than none because who says the fire wont be contained before it reaches right up to your gun safe.
So after boiling it all down what i finally came up with was a choice between these three safes.
1.American Security BF 66x36.
2.Sturdy 60x27 safe of the similiar size as the BF.
3.Ft.Knox Defender 66x37 with the optinal outside hinges and the delux package that upgraded the 10 gauge body to a 3/16th body and brought the door plate thickness up from 1/4 inch to 3/8th of an inch.
So at the end of that research i eventually eliminated the Knox due to it coming in at around $3200.00
I was going back and forth between the Sturdy and Amsec BF.
The Sturdy offers a strong 7 gauge body(3/16th really) and inner body of 14 gauge and pretty decent fire insulation.
It's door thickness was 5/16th of an inch plate steel.
The owner Terry actually called me at home and discussed this safe for a pretty good amount of time.
Not likely the head of Ft.Knox,Browning,or Amsec would take that kind of a personal approach.
But since i had never had the opprtunity to actually view the Sturdy i soon elminated it as well.
Sturdy does not have a dealer network and the safe must be drop shipped.
Fwiw it is the only gun safe in the size i was looking at with that kind of body thickness that came in under three grand and it was well under that price.
So I finally bought the Amsec BF 66X36 in the textured Sandstone color with mechanical lock for the price of $2299.00 before tax and installation.
Ten gauge outer body with an inner steel liner of 14 gauge steel.
And that wonderful thick plate steel door.
A full 1/2 inch thick plate with another one inch of fire lining behind it.
It also houses between those two bodies of steel two inches thickness of a concrete type of insulation that is touted to be greatly superior to fire rated sheetrock that is placed inside most other gun safes and supposedly helps in a brute force burglary attempt.
Hope i dont have to find out about this the hard way.
Anyway i am happy with what i chose and maybe this post will help others that are looking at the best bang for the buck on an American made gun safe.

"Are there any secrets to the purchase of a safe? "

WELL, yeah. But I can't tell you. It's a secret ya know!

Choosing safes was an arduous chore. I'm not faulting salespeople for trying to close the deal, but some of the stuff they spew can make vultures vomit. You certainly can get glassy eyed after awhile.

One salesperson said you can put a 2500 lb. gun safe in any home with a raised wood foundation. It'll probably be OK if you don't mind a built-in tub surrounding your safe within a few years.

Another guy said, "Once a burglar sees our safe they just walk away. They know it's hopeless."

Another safe "specialist" said there was no need to bolt down your safe - only specialists know how to take it out.

I was at a dealer where I tried to find out about safe construction of a particular Fort Knox. I think it would have been easier to get the launch codes at NORAD. He would only talk about the multi-tone color schemes, the glossy paint, the gorgeous interiors, the convenient drawers etc.

A safe/locksmith dealer quoted $1,000 for installation of an AMSEC BF in a single story home. This mystified me since one normally does not try to scare away potential customers. Even though he was an official dealer, this probably wasn't his main line of work.

At another local AMSEC dealer, the floor person was pushing a TF5517. It was on "special" sale for $879 (FYI, msrp is $790). I asked her to open the safe for me, she said no problem. After maybe a half-a-dozen attempts, she yells to the front counter, "How do you open this thing!"

The counter person shouts, "You have to turn left first!"

She yells back, "It still doesn't work!"

The counter person corrects her, "No the other left!"

If anonymity is important to you, ask how do they deliver. Some come in unmarked trucks and cover up the product. If I had to do it over again I would ask the dealer if it were possible to be more discreet. Nevertheless, I'm not sure covering up would do any good. Anyone seeing a large covered rectangular object that takes 10 minutes to get through the front door isn't going to conclude it's IKEA furniture.

Anyways if there are any secrets out there, with time I hope they're all cleared up. One can always hope.

I'll preface this by admitting that I do not know a thing about 'real' safes. My dad had an extensive firearm collection in his basement, and he was far too poor to afford a safe. Instead, he essentially made a small closet in the basement corner out of concrete, rebar, and sections of I-beams bolted together in a pattern that made any normal type of prying next to impossible. It was surrounded by studs and covered in drywall, and had a solid wooden door that opened up to expose the secure door. I would not have a clue as to how to break into it without destroying the contents.

Is there something wrong with this type of 'safe' other than the fact that it takes up more space, is essentially a permanent change to the house, and may not look as nice as the high dollar commercial options? I don't think my dad spent more than $300 in 1980 or so. When I get some more time I have been considering something similar in my basement, although I do not have the welding and metalworking tools to make the frame.

stchman said:

I think Bass Pro has the best safes for the money.

I spent $750 on mine and it is pretty nice. Cabela's is higher for the same types.

JMO.

Click to expand...

OK, looks like I figured out how to quote by using the quick reply to this message icon at the lower right corner of the post I wanted to quote.

Most of Bass Pro Shops "Redhead" private label safes are now Chinese imports. As memory serves, Granite Security Products built safes for them at one time, but not any more. Add to that their pricing is not very competitive, and I would look elsewhere for a safe. Is your's UL listed? Most Chinese imports aren't. In fact, I've never seen one that was.

CB900F said:

Fella's;

I've been lurking on this thread; thought it was time to chime in.

BG&K stated: "Statistically you are more likely to lose your gun to theft than fire. No matter what the fire rating is on a safe, it will NOT PROTECT YOUR CONTENTS in the event of a full house fire. The fire seals on the doors don't expand until the heat gets high and the damaging smoke has already ruined the contents. The overall heat in the end will rust the barrels, char the wood, and melt the plastic. I've seen the best fire safes hold up in a fire, but the contents...not so much. I am a fireman, Station 940 Kansas. Protect from theft by bolting it down and hope for the best."

I'd invite him, and anybody else interested in good fire protection, to go to www.graffundersafes.com and examine the photos of Graffunder's that have gone through total loss building fires.

Graffunder uses a proprietary concrete/vermiculite insulation in the walls of their safes. The outer skin is, at minimum, a 1/4" A36 tool steel plate, then there's a 1.5" layer of insulation, and finally, there's a continuous inner layer of steel. Graffunder's are true safes, not RSC's, and are therefore more expensive. However, you actually get the protection you're paying for.

On locks, and I'm a professional locksmith, beware of logo imitation. We're noticing that import safes will have little LaGard (LG), or Sargent & Greenleaf (SG) look-alike logos on the lock that are just enough different from the real thing to cause confusion without presumably causing lawsuits. The locks under the logos are not LaGard or Sargent & Greenleafs.

And, as has been stated several times above, do get a unit that's larger than what you think you'll need. The cost of a protected cubic inch of space goes down rather steeply as the size of the safe rises. My concern though is the ad-garbage that makes people think they've got "Bank Quality Protection", when what they've really got is a run-of-the-mill tin-can RSC. True, anything's better than nothing, but at least make an informed decision when you buy & know what you're buying when you do get an RSC.

900F

Click to expand...

I never heard of Graffunder until recently when somebody was circulating a YouTube video of a couple of guys breaking into an un-named safe. Looks like they play the same games I spoke of on my website as to referring to UL ratings without their safes being UL Listed. If they are in fact UL Listed, then I missed it on their website.

First, the RSC "Redisential Security Rating" is a rating that UL came up with many years ago to give gun safe manufacturers a listing as well as a standard of comparison for consumers. Prior to that, they only had TL-15 and TL-30 classifications which no ordinary gun safe will meet. The RSC rating is a pass or fail test which includes a prying, punching, and peeling attack. With that in mind, the entry level Maverick Series Fort Knox, for example, will carry the same label as their top of the line Legend Series which is much heavier built in terms of steel thickness, has a stainless steel inner liner and outer covering on the door, and has a superior locking system. No doubt it would be more secure, but it shares the same label. 12GA is the minimum for passing the UL RSC test.

As for fire ratings, I've seen insulated gun safes go through fires with no loss whatsoever, and I've seen them burn up. For that matter, I know of instances where the old Pro-Steel safes (which were non-insulated) survived house fires. Back to Graffunder, I didn't see any test information to see how they came up with their fire ratings. No doubt that a concrete mixture is a very effective insulator, I don't see and inch and a half doing that great a job. BTW, you guys do know what proprietary means, don't you?

al123 said:

I was at a dealer where I tried to find out about safe construction of a particular Fort Knox. I think it would have been easier to get the launch codes at NORAD. He would only talk about the multi-tone color schemes, the glossy paint, the gorgeous interiors, the convenient drawers etc.

Click to expand...

You were obviously dealing with an idiot as Fort Knox is one of very few manufacturers who actually show in their sales brochures and website how their doors are constructed as to steel thickness. Most list the overall thickness and leave it up to you to figure out how much steel is in the door. They also list their body thickness and the thickness of the steel inner liner on those safes that have them or are offered with that option.

Anyone who actually wants to purchase a safe, not an RSC, not a lock box etc, should go to a professional, full time, bonded locksmith to ask their opinion and check out their inventory.

The stuff that Cabela's, Dick's, Wal Mart and other chain stores sell is crap pure and simple. It wouldn't be so bad if people intended to store a a few hundred dollars in these products. Unfortunately they're putting large amounts of cash and/or firearms into a product which is little better than an oversized cash box. If it's all you can afford, fine. But if you can afford a better product don't complain when you come home to find your Sentry "safe" peeled or hacked open and everything inside gone.

I always used to dismiss the local locksmith shop that I would see on the side of the road...until I actually went inside. They had everything from UL TL-15 to safes that were tool attack, torch attack and even explosive attack rated. Anything you wanted they would fabricate or order and all of it was UL certified. Were their prices higher? Certainly, but you were dealing with a real safe and a real expert. When I went to Sports Authority their employees couldn't even find the combinations to open the RSCs they were selling. Their firearms section manager even told me that he couldn't be bothered to take the time when the item in question was over $1,000 in value.

If you want real quality here's a tip, go into a jewelry store and ask what they would recommend for a safe. Jewelers use the best products; they have no choice. If they use an RSC or some other piece of junk insurance won't protect them against theft. Like anything else in life you get what you pay for. Do the research and then go to a real craftsman or a company that specializes in building actual safes, the better ones don't even produce RSCs. You'll be glad you did.

Most of Bass Pro Shops "Redhead" private label safes are now Chinese imports. As memory serves, Granite Security Products built safes for them at one time, but not any more. Add to that their pricing is not very competitive, and I would look elsewhere for a safe. Is your's UL listed? Most Chinese imports aren't. In fact, I've never seen one that was.

Click to expand...

Bass Pro sells Redhead safes manufacturered or imported by Pro Steel (Browning) and Granite. You are correct that Granite used to manufacturer their safes here in the US, but most if not all of the safes they sell to Bass Pro are now imported. Some of the Pro Steels are also imported. The current trend is to move away from being a manufacturer and move into the importing business.

As long as a gun safe uses a UL listed lock, then any other UL rating means virtually nothing. Really, the only other UL rating found on a gun safe is an RSC rating. Manufacturers and salespersons make a big deal about this rating, but none of them seem to even know what it entails. As a professional, I will tell you that it means almost nothing. A 12 gauge safe with a UL listed lock is a 12 gauge safe with a UL listed lock. One is not stronger than the other because of a UL rating that tests the safe against a hammer and a long screw driver.

I never heard of Graffunder until recently when somebody was circulating a YouTube video of a couple of guys breaking into an un-named safe.

Click to expand...

Graffunder is a well known manufacturer of heavy plate gun safes. They have been in business for a number of years, and also build some commercial and special order products.

The "un-named" safe is actually a Liberty Centurion. They have removed the logos for legal reasons.

Looks like they play the same games I spoke of on my website as to referring to UL ratings without their safes being UL Listed. If they are in fact UL Listed, then I missed it on their website.

Click to expand...

There is no reason for Graffunder to submit their safes for a UL RSC rating. Everything Graffunder builds is steel plate. The build B, C, E, and F rate safes. Their B rated safe uses over twice the steel as most heavily built gun safes, and would easily pass the RSC test. Why waste the money?

The E and F rate safes are built to the same specs as steel plate TL-15 and TL-30 safes. These safes would also easily get the UL TL-15 and TL-30 ratings if Graffunder wanted to spend the money to submit them for testing. Since these safes are being used in non commercial environments, the UL sticker isn't a deal breaker.

The RSC rating is a pass or fail test which includes a prying, punching, and peeling attack.

Click to expand...

Using a small handheld hammer and a large screwdriver or small prying device not exceeding 18". When you say it your way it sounds really impressive. When you put it in context like I just did, you can see where it's not really that impressive.

If a steel box using steel 1/10" thick can obtain the rating, it should be obvious that the rating means very little.

It is my opinion that the RSC label was invented by UL in the event California's system of gun safe approval became national law.

As for fire ratings, I've seen insulated gun safes go through fires with no loss whatsoever, and I've seen them burn up. For that matter, I know of instances where the old Pro-Steel safes (which were non-insulated) survived house fires.

Click to expand...

I have seen the same thing. This mostly depends on the specific circumstances of the fire. No two are the same. However, this is where UL ratings (that no gun safes have) become important. UL ratings test safes to the worst case scenario to ensure the best chance of survival regardless of the individual circumstances of the fire at hand.

Back to Graffunder, I didn't see any test information to see how they came up with their fire ratings. No doubt that a concrete mixture is a very effective insulator, I don't see and inch and a half doing that great a job. BTW, you guys do know what proprietary means, don't you?

Click to expand...

You would be surprised at what 1.5" of a material engineered to insulate a safe would do, especially when compared to a safe using 1.5" of a material that was never designed or engineered to be an insulator (gypsum board).

Proprietary means that the company has invested time and money into the engineering of their product. As such, they will not list the materials they use, thus preventing the competition from stealing it without paying for their own research.

You were obviously dealing with an idiot as Fort Knox is one of very few manufacturers who actually show in their sales brochures and website how their doors are constructed as to steel thickness.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately this is very common in the gun safe business. A lot of people who are in "the safe business", know nothing about safes. In fact, their experience is often limited by what they read in the manufacturer's sales brochures and websites.

Since some of these manufacturers also know very little about safes, sometimes this information is misleading. Now you have consumers being fed false information, which they assume to be true.

Anyone who actually wants to purchase a safe, not an RSC, not a lock box etc, should go to a professional, full time, bonded locksmith to ask their opinion and check out their inventory.

Click to expand...

I'll go a step further, and suggest a locksmith (safe tech) who specializes in safes. There are not many of us, but if you can find somebody in your area, you should talk with them.

Even if you are looking for a light weight RSC, you can get a good bit of information that is based in reality. Guys like me don't just sell safes. I move them, drill them open when they are locked, repair them when they break, and maintain them. Every day, guys like myself work with everything from inexpensive imported fire rated boxes, all the way up to $200,000 bank vault doors. I don't need to get my information out of a catalog. I know how long it takes to break into a safe because I have actually done it. I don't need to look at the manufacturer's hand selected photos of safes after a fire, because I've actually opened safes after a fire and know what type of damage occurs.

If you want factual information, you have to speak with somebody that knows the facts. You won't get this information from a manufacturer, and you typically will not get it from a gun safe salesman. But you still have to do your homework. There are a lot of different opinions even from us professionals.

a1abdg, not to get into a pissing contest with you with any of this, but I would bet you whatever amount you'd like that Graffunder hasn't been building gun safes for as long as they would lead you to believe. I didn't take the time today, but I'm pretty sure I did some research on them to find they built something other that safes when they started in '68 as they claim. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that a good many gun safe manufacturers used to build truck tool boxes etc. and decided to break into the safe business seeing as how they had the machinery to do such things.

I couldn't help but notice you have a private label line-up on your website that has your company's name on them. Judging by the uniform 59" height, I'm assuming these are Chinese imports. That's one thing I've noticed since they started coming in... they're all 59 inches in height. I assume that height has to do with them being able to double stack on a container, but maybe you can shed some light on that for me/us. I've kept away from the Chinese stuff myself, but that's just me.

As for American Security Products, many companies will make claims such as the one I'll make, but I was their largest dealer right up until the time I dropped them around 2000-2001. The difference in my claim is, AMSEC told me I was their largest volume dealer/distributor. They build a good safe, but unfortunatley, they did some very dumb things which lead me to drop them. Ask A. J. Gibson about that one! LOL I won't elaborate on all of them, but among other things they used to build safes for me that were made out of 1/4" plate bodies and 3/8" plate doors. They offered the 60x30 versions to all their dealers, but they built them exclusively for me in 60 x 40 and 72 x 40 sizes. I used to sell the hell out of those, but they announced they were going to composite door only safes while at the same time going back in time in their locking systems among other things.

Oh well, so much for this history lesson. BTW, I first started selling gun safes (Treadlok & Pro-Steel) in 1978 before starting Southern Security in 1981. Strictly as a matter of curiosity, how long have you been selling gun safes?

Oh yeah, one last thing. Proprietary in the gun safe business usually means they don't want to tell you what they use because it's not very impressive. Ask AMSEC for the steel thickness on some of their safes, and you'll see what I mean. ;-)

a1abdg, not to get into a pissing contest with you with any of this

Click to expand...

I'm not easily offended, and discussion on these types of topics are important. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so the more we talk about it, the more everybody who's interested can learn.

I would bet you whatever amount you'd like that Graffunder hasn't been building gun safes for as long as they would lead you to believe. I didn't take the time today, but I'm pretty sure I did some research on them to find they built something other that safes when they started in '68 as they claim. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that a good many gun safe manufacturers used to build truck tool boxes etc. and decided to break into the safe business seeing as how they had the machinery to do such things.

Click to expand...

This it true. The vast majority of those engaged in the manufacture of gun safes have NO background in the safe/security business. To them it's just another item they can fabricate and sell.

I couldn't help but notice you have a private label line-up on your website that has your company's name on them. Judging by the uniform 59" height, I'm assuming these are Chinese imports. That's one thing I've noticed since they started coming in... they're all 59 inches in height. I assume that height has to do with them being able to double stack on a container, but maybe you can shed some light on that for me/us. I've kept away from the Chinese stuff myself, but that's just me.

Click to expand...

They aren't my safes. They are imported by Eagle and sold to a variety of US based distributors who each get to have their branding painted on the safe. Instead of listing multiple brand names, we simply list the importer's name since they are all identical short of the name on the door.

I have no idea regarding the 59" height, and I do not believe they are stacked when shipped.

As far as Chinese products go, they have come a long way. They realized several years ago that they would have to increase the quality of their goods if they wanted to compete. These particular safes are built just as well if not better than some of their US made counterparts.

We currently sell, or have sold safes and vault doors from all over the globe. China, Japan, Korea, South Africa, Canada, Italy, France, England, and Israel all have safe manufacturers that build outstanding products. I'm sure there are a few that I missed.

I do get a kick out of our local customers that come in to the shop demanding an American built safe. Many of these same customers are wearing clothing, watches, and sunglasses from foreign manufacturers, and driving an imported car. Not to mention that you will find a number of locks made in China on US built safes.

but unfortunatley, they did some very dumb things which lead me to drop them.

Click to expand...

This is pretty typical of just about every manufacturer I do business with.

Strictly as a matter of curiosity, how long have you been selling gun safes?

Click to expand...

About 5 years. I've been selling real safes since 1990. We also handle the local deliveries for just about everybody that retails gun safes in our area, and perform the majority of the warranty work for most of the brand name manufacturers.

Overall, the gun safe portion of our business is pretty small. Most of our business is geared towards the commercial market.

Ask AMSEC for the steel thickness on some of their safes, and you'll see what I mean.

Click to expand...

I think this is more of a matter of talking to the proper person. The typical contact at AMSEC that answers these questions is a customer service rep who probably has no background in the security business. They are also reading information out of a book.

I have never had a problem getting real answers when I've needed them, but most of the time I already know and have no reason to ask.

I just did a lot of research on the subject, and I did get fairly glassy eyed by the end of it. In a nutshell, most RSCs that I looked at in stores were fairly crappy.

I needed a fairly large one, but what I ended up doing was buying 2 medium sized ones instead. I aim to drill through the side walls and bolt them together side by side and build a closet/cabinet around them both. To that end, I purchased 2 Sturdy safes - non-fire lined. They are in, but I have not picked them up from where I had them shipped, so I can't opine on them yet, but I am betting they will do what I need.

The reason I went with Sturdy was that in the price range that I paid, there were no other RSCs that had enough material in the side walls for a bolt to hold on to.

"What you want" (if you could afford it) vs. "What you need" Who wouldn't want a safe that a criminal has no chance of cracking. RSCs are pretty cheap, keep kids and casual thieves at bay, and give a gun owner some piece of mind that their guns are secure. They also let the gun owner get his guns out of cases stuck in the back of some closet which causes "closet wear." I think that RSCs are a step up for many people. Most people realize that a Sentry or such is an RSC and not a "SAFE" and that RSCs can be broken into. You house can always be broken into, but you invest in a good lock. Your car can be broken into, but you lock it at the mall. Most bicycle locks can be cut, but a lock gives you a measure of security vs. someone just walking up and taking off. "IT AIN'T A PERFECT WORLD."
















9

Fella's;

Ulrich Graffunder emigrated from, then, West Germany to the United States in 1958. He was involved in the safe industry in Germany before he came here. When he arrived in the U.S. he began working in the same industry here, and did so for approximately ten years. At that time he became disenchanted with the company he was affiliated with & formed his own company to build safes to his standard. That company was run by he and his son in LaGrand Oregon until they sold it a few years ago.

The new owner moved the operation to Yakima Washington, where they are made today. The production methods have been updated through the use of CNC, state of the art paint booths, etc., but the build philosophy remains intact.

The U.L. TL, TR, ratings are test ratings. The Underwriter's B, C, E, etc. ratings are build ratings. In other words, if you build to that standard, or exceed it, you can claim it.

Regarding the advice to go to a locksmith: That's good advice, but I'll go a step further. Make sure the locksmith you go to is an ALOA locksmith. Then, if safes are the subject, try to ensure that the shop is a SAVTA qualified shop. ALOA is the national locksmith's organization that provides schooling, testing for qualification, and certification of those qualifications. SAVTA is a subset of ALOA and is the Safe And Vault Technician's Association. A SAVTA shop will not only be qualified to advise you on your prospective purchase, they will almost certainly have the tools and experience to properly move and install a true safe.

Oh, and Central Lock & Key in Great Falls Montana does just happen to be both ALOA and SAVTA.

900F

Just like alot of the other guys here have told you, buy the best and strongest mechanical safe you can afford. But before you bolt it into the floor or wall make sure you install a small light inside to keep the corrosion down on your valuables. If the humidity gets into the safe and ruins your valuable guns, their value is lost without being stolen or burnt.

I am tempted to just get the biggest RSC I can find and weld 3/16" plates on all sides.

I do Diecast Die repair and have access to steel plates from time to time.

Will this be bad for the hinges, to have the extra weight?

Well, the biggest secret is.... I have a Liberty. Not only a Liberty, but one with an electronic lock!



I keep it upstairs in the entertainment/movie/gun cleaning room in a corner, bolted.

As you can see, it has an S&G electronic lock. My local independent dealer was willing to get me either, but recommended electronic for my situation. He said he'd never had a problem with them and it represented 80% of his sales. Problem free, so far.


It says it'll hold a lot, but it won't. At least when you've got a bit of ammo stored inside.





But it does hold my favorite.


And some of the rest.



I've got a couple of more unnder biometric lock downstairs in the Master, including a SIG 239 that is turning into another carry & range favorite after languishing a couple of years in safe hell.

Anyway, the Liberty has been completely reliable, the electronic pad is fast and wifey likes the shiny finish on the exterior.

So there.