what advantage does an 8-shot .45 have over a 16shot 9mm??

PabloJ said:

Given availability of 12+ shot .45Autos out there is only advantage poor weak 9x19 has which is availability of cheaper pinkling ammo. When one realizes that .45ACP user does not need JHPs for personal defense ammo one could easily argue that the bigger gun is "cheaper to carry". Due to availability of +p ammo the .45ACP is also superior to .40S&W and longer version called 10mm.

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OK this has turned into a 9vs45 thread...

To those that are posting un-intelligent comments about how the .45 is a magic round and dissing the 9mm please stop. That is just silly. Normally I would tell those folks to stand in front of a 9mm JHP, but how about I just join the silly-ness and say that the .45 is weak. Why don't you carry a real mans handgun... Like a Desert Eagle or a Taurus Judge or a .44? Come on guys.

The .45 is superior to the .40? There are .40 loads coming out of the pipe at 1100 fps with 500+ ft/lbs. There is much overlap between calibers. By the way, as Autoloaders go, the 357 sig is already renown as a one stop shot cartridge (read up on it)... does that mean everyone should carry it? NO!!! The ammo is harder to find and the recoil is harsh. Every load... EVERY LOAD has it's purpose. Pro's and Con's and drawbacks.

daorhgih said:

... in the same place on the body (which is why we use man-shaped targets, is it not?) ONE shot in a vital area has more OOoomph-factor per .45 than 9mm round does. (rant on all weenie-caliber lovers, rant on.) mljdeckard, 7794 posts: hey!, maybe he really DOES know everything about everything; but don't use "we" when you obviously mean "I". I carry, concealed, because "deliberately carrying into a fight" might be just around the aisle in HandyShak. "The first EIGHT"!! How about the first ONE! And we need LOTS of citations for your other posits, also. It's different in Chi-town (real-wordly) than in Utah Territory (calm-zone?), IMHO. Dao.

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"Ooomph" is not a scientific term I'm familiar with but yes I will agree that bullet for bullet the .45 is better (by how much I don't know). When measuring the crush factor, tissue tearing and overall cavitiy damage the cartridge with more mass and size will do better (assuming it does what it's suppose to)... and Yes I also agree if you can get put a .45 and 9mm in the same exact spot the .45 will most likely do better.

With that being said; How many of you have been in firefights and the one's that have how many of you got perfect shot placement? I don't know how awesome everyone else is at shooting but I know my limits. I know I can perform double taps and even triple taps with the 9mm better than any other cartridge. Is that important to me? Damn right espicially when I can't get that first round in the chest... maybe I shot the perp in the arm or the shoulder and need to fire more rounds.

If you have an armed encounter that eight rounds won't solve, it is highly unlikely that fifteen will save you either. That is when you need a rifle.

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In terms of "need", if you've expended your eight rounds and need a ninth, you really need another bullet. And in any armed encounter that requires a first round, let alone seven more, to use your argument, you needed a rifle in the first place.

I realize their food might be healthier with fewer preservatives but their handguns should be better then ours? As an American I'm truly embarrassed.

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I laugh.

To answer your question, it isn't about caliber at all, it is about the platform

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The more I think about the question, the more I think 9mmepiphany had the right answer from the git-go. A lot of people have ended their opinions with "get what's right for you; get what feels best for you; get the gun you're most comfortable with", etc , and what they're really referencing is the platform, not the caliber.

Usually when this perennial comment is made around me it's by someone who has shown up for qualification. It's often by one of the younger shooters, too.

We can find out real quick whether or not having all those rounds makes that person a better shot than someone who's familiar and skilled with their 8-shot .45 pistol.

Sheer capacity is pretty far down on my list of critical considerations when I'm carrying a handgun as a dedicated defensive weapon. It's somewhere after caliber ... (which isn't at the top of my list, either, FWIW)

I'm more interested in the shooter's knowledge, familiarity with their handgun, their mindset, how well they've developed their skillset and how well they maintain their handgun. I like to see how well they can apply their knowledge of tactics while demonstrating good decision making skill, while also employing good shooting skills. I want to see them exhibit safe, smooth, fast and fumble-free good technique in drawing & presentation and then reholstering.

Sheer capacity generally doesn't help offset a lack of knowledge, skill and ability in any of these things.

I've met any number of folks who seemed to possess what essentially amounted to a false sense of confidence in their ability to safely, accurately and effectively use a handgun just because it had a hi-cap magazine.

I've said it before and I suppose I might as well say it again ...

I started as a young cop carrying an issued 6-shot revolver and either a 6-shot revolver or a 7+1 capacity Colt Commander off-duty. I never felt under-equipped.

In later years when we eventually made the transition to semiauto pistols, I carried issued guns with magazine capacities of 14, 15, 12, 9, 8 & then 7 rounds (in that order). I was carrying a compact, lightweight 7+1 capacity issued .45 at the time of my retirement.

On my own time, when it came to my own guns, I carried either a 5-shot revolver or one of my assorted pistols (9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP) with magazine capacities of 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 rounds, and that's carried over into my retirement. I've picked up some various higher capacity magazines for a couple of the guns over the years, but I seldom find reason to carry them.

Bottom line? Lots of things I give consideration to before sheer capacity ... or caliber, for that matter (modern designed defensive ammunition has come a long way).

While I occasionally carry one of my .40's or .45's, my commonly chosen retirement CCW weapon tends to be either a 5-shot .38 Spl J-frame loaded with +P or a smallish 9mm pistol.

I do a fair amount of training, practice and quals with all of them, though.

I'm comfortable with my choices.

What are you confident carrying when it comes to considering being involved in an unavoidable defensive shooting situation, one which is an unexpected dynamic, chaotic, rapidly-changing event which will probably occur in low light, in an unfamiliar environment, and may well involve circumstances which tax you physically, mentally & emotionally? How well do you know and understand the applicable laws in your jurisdiction? Have you given thought to the potential difference between when deadly force may be lawful& appropriate versus lawful & inappropriate?

Does higher magazine capacity make you feel better about any of this?

Just my thoughts ...

Well, personally, I love having rounds on deck, the more the better, no one ever died because he had too many potential shots left in his weapon or on his belt, but it gets to a point of diminishing returns after a bit.

Mostly because there are many other considerations for a carry gun than capacity. Size, how it feels with your hand, how well you shoot it, weight, whether or not you have a nice holster for it, what you wear on a daily.

Personally I find the FNP-9M and Glock 19/23, and also the 26/27, and CZ PCR, to be about perfect for a carry weapon. I've never had a .45 carry gun, though I used to bomb around with my CZ 97B once in awhile.

Usually when this perennial comment is made around me it's by someone who has shown up for qualification.

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While I'm not one to claim 15+ is the minimum or anything I do have to say something about this "qualification" notion.
In the Army, qualification focuses on slow fire from the prone, kneeling and standing.
What that measures in terms of being winded, hot, adrenaline high and getting shot back at, I don't quite know.
there's arguments to be made for both sides for sure. Slow, deliberate, aimed fire that hits the target is no doubt a very crucial skill to have as a shooter of anything, really. But often a good score in qualifying terms doesn't translate into a good performance under pressure, or while being somewhere other than a range ... and vice versa.

So ideally good training includes both. I just don't see that model a lot. Not that I've been actively looking or anything.

Get both. Each has it's merits and it's place. Weather and garment have more to do with which I choose, not usually ammo quantity. Chances are I'm in good shape with either weapon type.

When I carry a 1911 I carry 1 or 2 extra mags (10 rounders). When I carry a Glock 23 I carry 0 or 1 extra mag (15 round g22 mag). Usually no extra mags with the Glock. Maybe I have carried a 1911 without a few times with no extra mags at all. It's a decision that varies day to day.

27 rounds is plenty. And that's my max loadout with a 1911. 17 is fine as well. The most I carry with my Glock 23 is 29. So the ammo bit is a complete non issue.

1911 mags are also much slimmer for CCW, and I feel way more confident in the power of .45acp. I dont care what jello says.

Ok, maybe if I get stuck working an area out in the gang ridden Amish neighborhoods, I'll strap on a Glock 23 and 2 G22 mags (44rounds total). Got to watch out for those miscreants in thier horse buggies.

hypnogator said:

OH PLEASE, NOT ANOTHER 9MM VS .45 THREAD!

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Lol

Sheer capacity generally doesn't help offset a lack of knowledge, skill and ability in any of these things.

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Nor does "sheer capacity" negate having "knowledge, skill and ability" in any of the things you talk about. Good training will teach a shooter to make every shot count, whether you're shooting a Chief's Special or a Glock. It doesn't necessarily follow that just because you are armed with a high-capacity pistol means that you have to employ "spray and pray" tactics. Proper training puts everything into proper perspective.

Nor does "sheer capacity" negate having "knowledge, skill and ability" in any of the things you talk about. Good training will teach a shooter to make every shot count, whether you're shooting a Chief's Special or a Glock. It doesn't necessarily follow that just because you are armed with a high-capacity pistol means that you have to employ "spray and pray" tactics. Proper training puts everything into proper perspective.

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I agree.

Capacity ... (or caliber) ... doesn't "negate" the ability of someone to acquire the knowledge, skill and experience base needed to become well skilled & trained.

On the other hand, I've had more than my fair share of occasion to meet (and listen to) more lawfully armed folks who were seemingly more inclined to rely upon capacity, or some special ammunition, than were seemingly willing to invest extra time and effort involved in improving their skillset & mindset.

When you're dealing with knowledgeable, well-trained and experienced folks who are lawfully armed, the "capacity", "caliber" or "special ammunition" issue doesn't often seem to become as important of a topic.

I'm going to go with the capacity argument. In 9, 40, or 45. The more bullets the better. You might be a hell of a shot at the range where there's no stress, no wind, no obstacles, but if SHTF, all of the above are going to be affecting your shots. There's a high miss rate in real world shootings due to this.

We'd all like to think that our training and nerves of steel will save us in a bad scenario, but if all else fails, more ammo just might save your life.

PRACTICE,PRACTICE,and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,PRACTICE. I myself in my own opinion have been in a gunfight with only an older Colt in .45 acp that was made back in 1925 and I used 230 grain ball ammo and the suspect died when I put a triangle shot between his eyes. He [suspect] was shooting at me with a .25 and hit my right arm once and I returned fire 3 times. 2 of the ball ammo went thru the back of his head and mushroomed nicely and the third round was just barely starting to come out.

It really is about evaluating your need, getting training and being proficient with your chosen platform

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Like so many of these types of questions it is really about your needs, your training and your ability to perform with the gun you have chosen. There is no universal answer. There is no 1 perfect gun for everyone there is no one prefect caliber.

Choose what works best for you. Train with it and hope you never have to use it in a life or death situation. I am always puzzled by why someone would be swayed one way or another based on these internet discussions. What could I possibly state here via my laptop that would change your mind?

I'm going to go with the capacity argument. In 9, 40, or 45. The more bullets the better. You might be a hell of a shot at the range where there's no stress, no wind, no obstacles, but if SHTF, all of the above are going to be affecting your shots. There's a high miss rate in real world shootings due to this.

We'd all like to think that our training and nerves of steel will save us in a bad scenario, but if all else fails, more ammo just might save your life.

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Spray and pray.... LOL just kidding.

I have both a 9 and a .45 I alternate for CC. I've been told to carry the largest caliber you can adequately shoot. If I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my .45 than i wouldn't feel comfortable carrying it.

Capacity isn't high on my list of importance. Comfort for me is big, and size. Nothing I've shot has felt better in my hands than my Kimber Ultra Carry.

This next part is only my opinion but if someone tried to mug me and I pull out my .45, the first thing they are going to look at is the tip of a hollow point staring at them. That's more intimidating I think than a little pocket shooter therefore intimidation may lower your chances of having to use any rounds, let alone 15.

I also have no way of knowing how well I will shoot under a high stress situation, so having more rounds may be a good thing as well, but I prefer to believe that even a couple not so great .45 shots will do as much as a handful of well placed smaller caliber shots.

Like I would give you some of my ammo, because you couldn't hit anything with all of yours

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Priceless!

well,on the 45 the basic is 7,1 round might be the decisive factor

PabloJ, please research the meanings of ...

... "than" and ''then". Dao.

You don't have to have a 16 shot 9mm to do spray and pray, it can be done with a 8 shot .45 as well. You just run out of bullets faster.

For the record I do carry a Para GI Expert 1911, but the thing I like is that it is single stack is easy to carry feels nicer in my hand and the 1911 platform for me does point naturally. But there is nothing wrong with higher capacity handguns if that is what works for you. If do prefer 9mm there are 1911s that are chambered in it and are double stacked.

if someone tried to mug me and I pull out my .45, the first thing they are going to look at is the tip of a hollow point staring at them. That's more intimidating I think than a little pocket shooter therefore intimidation may lower your chances of having to use any rounds, let alone 15.

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Even a .22 looks like a cannon when it's pointed at you by an adversary. I don't believe anyone's going to laugh off a small 9mm or .380 pistol that's pointed at them by someone who means business.