Handgun Caliber Selection Insight

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The sad part is the .475's and .500, and .510's, for the increase in diameter, are MUCH more effective then the slight increase in diameter indicates.

The .50GI, or .475JRH are GREAT ideas, if they didn't come in 3k guns, with only custom ammunition.

There is something strange about these big bullets. Even at sedate speeds, like 950-1100 fps, with non-expanding bullets, they kill large animals like Thor's Hammer.
 
Recoil, portability and ammo capacity are the advantages associated with smaller calibers.

The .50 GI glock conversion kit has roughly the same recoil (so I've read, I haven't fired it) as the .45, and it comes in the same package. Although it does come with only 8+1 (9+1 extended) capacity, as opposed to 13+1, so that is a bit of a dip. I wonder if Springfield or FN did a .50 GI, though, if they could fit more in there. But in this case, it's availability and price that's the real kicker.

Prosser, you posted as I did. There is a $600 conversion kit to put the .50 GI on a Glock, but that's still $600-1100 (depending on whether or not you had the Glock 20/21 first), and the ammo is expensive. I think if they make it non-propietary, the .50 GI could really catch on.
 
Browning was working with materials that limited the guns ability to handle recoil, etc. Also, the .45's were used against horses, as well as people, and, the issue was adequate penetration with soft lead bullets with the .45 Colt, but, since the Hague in 1898, that was less of an issue with the non-expanding bullets in the .45ACP. I suspect tooling for a different caliber would have been a major rocking the boat move, and JMB picked the .45 for that reason.

Why don't people carry more .50's? Because they are expensive or non-existent.
The old adage:
"Why do I carry a .45? Because they don't make a .50."
Applies.

One of the most intresting posting I have EVER had was with Lee Jurras, Mr. .44 Magnum. He said if he could have one gun, it would be a .475 Linebaugh, with 420 grain bullets, at 950fps. Apparently it works far better then it's ballistic numbers suggest. That coming from a guy that has more then a half million rounds through a .44, using 185 grain bullets at 1900fps.
 
Wapato, I do believe there was more discussion regarding the accuracy of the deflected bullet reports.

Do you know where?

Then again, Brassfetcher had similar results - 9mm tended to be Not Recoverable more than .45.

Well, that wasn't a deflection test at all, as the surfaces were all flat and perpendicular to the bullet path. This, and having the "bone" right at the surface, also makes it not much of a test for potential fragmentation. It was instead a failure to expand test, rather like the more common drywall tests.

I think the caliber discussion, for rational people, comes down to "these rounds are effective, which round is most effective?" It is also useful when something new comes out to see how it compares.

I agree. I also think your signature is very clever. :) Did you come up with that?

Wapato:
You bring up some excellent points. I liked your target, and have been saying the same thing for years. The bullet can enter the arm, go it's 14" and be stuck in the guys elbow.

Yeah, for me it'll probalby never be quite the same for me when I have that target come back to me. It's also putting a twist on some of the self defense articles in "The Rifleman". I'm recalling a specific one at the moment where the assailant was shot in both arms. Now the homeowner could have played it fancy for moral reasons, or they're just a questionable shot, but I also wonder if they weren't sending bullets towards the center of mass and the arms just got in the way.

Sadly that level of detail is almost never there.

I've always thought the 18" penetration is a better level. Problem is, that means some sort of non-expanding bullet in most SD calibers, and, that's not popular.

Well, bullets could do that easily enough. However in their effort to attract customers and government money I think the manufacturers are trying to maximize their appeal to FBI standards. They demand ~12 inches of penetration. Bunch once you get that far they're looking for maximum expansion, which not only creates a wider wound but also greater shock.

So if someone was doing R&D on a new bullet and it expanded and went 18" they'd try and get it to expand more and only go 12" or so.


David E. posted you can be as fast with a .45 as a 9MM. This is not born out by shooting games. To qualify for major, the favorite caliber is .38 Super, with a 100 grain bullet at 1500 fps, IIRC. It pretty much doesn't recoil, and comp shooters use it for a reason: it's the lowest recoiling round that qualifies as major. You can load 9MM pretty close to that, but it falls short, 90 grain bullet, 1400 fps.

Whoa whoa whoa. That doesn't make sense. The 90 grain 1400fps round will recoil less than the 100 grain 1500 fps round.

Faster speeds give you a flatter trajectory. It would seem like maybe they're selecting a higher recoil cartridge in order to get better external ballistics.


Does shock come into play with handgun calibers? There does seem to be a
noticeable difference between 950 fps and 1350 fps, at least on large animals, with large calibers. With bigger revolver cases, you can get big bullets moving VERY fast, fast in this case being 1900 fps. .44 magnum will do that with a 185 grain bullet.
.454 Casull will move a 240 grain bullet at 2065 fps. THAT is approaching
the area where things start happening. I wonder what the guy who nearly blew his leg off with the FA 83 had in his .454?

After all is said and done, this is the least exact science of anything.
Every shooting is different, every reaction is unique. The only consistency is inconsistency.

Careful here. The important thing with shock making a difference is the magnitude of the pressure wave and where that pressure wave is. A very high velocity round that just zips through may not create all that much pressure. And a frangable round will create a massive pressure wave...at the surface of the torso, nowhere near anything that would care and on the wrong side of things like bone and lungs that will mess up propagation.

This makes me suspicious of some of the studies that demonstrated that a pressure wave from an handgun round to the thigh in an animal like a pig or dog or goat can cause a significant effect in the brain. If shot high and from the side, this means the bullet should be hitting where major blood vessels are near the surface, giving a propagation path straight to the brain from where the pressure wave is at a maximum.

However with a person facing you, those major vessels are closer to their back with a fair bit of tissue and bone in the way.



...wow, I am way to long winded :p
 
Yes, in this thread, people were discussing that they've seen the article before and it had been discredited. Although I don't have a source for the discredit.

I did come up with my signature, although I'm considering changing it to what you quoted. Thanks for the compliment.

Well, bullets could do that easily enough. However in their effort to attract customers and government money I think the manufacturers are trying to maximize their appeal to FBI standards. They demand ~12 inches of penetration. Bunch once you get that far they're looking for maximum expansion, which not only creates a wider wound but also greater shock.

So if someone was doing R&D on a new bullet and it expanded and went 18" they'd try and get it to expand more and only go 12" or so.

I think the FBI says 12-18", but I could be wrong. 12" is the bare minimum.
 
There is something strange about these big bullets. Even at sedate speeds, like 950-1100 fps, with non-expanding bullets, they kill large animals like Thor's Hammer.
If this were true then there would be virtually no difference between the performance of the 125g .38 Special and the performance of the 125g .357 Magnum.
But I've seen folks shot with both rounds and I can tell you that there is definitely a big difference.
Don't look now, folks, but some people are saying that some calibers have more "stopping power" or "knock-down power" than others. With knock down power being defined as "ability to kill animals like Thor's Hammer,"--I like that phrase, by the way!--and stopping power as the ability to end fights.
I think the FBI says 12-18", but I could be wrong. 12" is the bare minimum.
12 inches is the bare minimum for those who adopt the FBI standard. It's up to each of us to decide if we should.

18 inches is the "maximum desirable" penetration; the FBI specifies no maximum acceptable penetration, beyond which penetration would be "unacceptable" or "over-penetration." That's their perspective, and they have good reason for it.
For myself, a .45 and a couple of spare mags are ideal.
A lot of folks make that choice, I think they're right to do so. Of course, a lot of people go with double-stack 9s (with good HP loads)--and I think they're right, too.
 
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Don't look now, folks, but some people are saying that some calibers have more "stopping power" or "knock-down power" than others.
Ummm....I don't use the terms "stopping power" or "knock down power", but yes, certain calibers and certain loads are more effective than other calibers and other loads at quickly stopping aggressive humans, all other things being equal.

Anyone who doubts this is beyond reason.
 
I don't use the terms "stopping power" or "knock down power"
And I think that's a wise choice, as use of these terms act as a red flag to a bull for some posters.

I do use them, but I mean by them just what you said: "certain calibers and certain loads are more effective than other calibers and other loads at quickly stopping aggressive humans, all other things being equal." Although some folks insist I must be meaning something else.

I do not mean to imply you should use either term: completely your choice.
 
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I do use them, but I mean by them just what you said: "certain calibers and certain loads are more effective than other calibers and other loads at quickly stopping aggressive humans, all other things being equal." Although some folks insist I must be meaning something else.

And just how exactly do you quantify this property that you call "stopping power"?

Sure you can go about saying that, "certain calibers and certain loads are more effective than other calibers and other loads at quickly stopping aggressive humans, all other things being equal", but without a tangible dimensional unitary value to express this "commodity" you can't offer a valid quantitative comparison of one caliber/cartridge against any other.

Units, please. (see? I even said "please")
 
Why does it require units?

What I'm talking about (others can speak for themselves) is effectiveness; perhaps especially how long an attacker remains aggressive, or how far an animal travels, after taking "a good hit."

It is a quality (not necessarily a quantity) that most seem to understand intuitively. Since you are on about units--what units would you propose? (Just guessing, but I would think that a "how long" unit might be seconds; and a "how far" unit might be feet.)

Perhaps "effectiveness" as I've described it does not exist? That would seem odd, as most hunters (and I think most SD handgunners) seem to talk about it a lot.
 
I think 481 is looking for a formula that we can use to show which is better. People have been looking for that formula for years, but the problem is that it is nearly impossible to test that formula in a real-world setting. You can use past statistics, which many have tried (and failed) to use, mainly because the data isn't from a single source and most data is removed.

Therefore, most of the research that is done is based on lab work, rough history, and anecdotes that may or may not be a good representation of what happened. However, that's not to say that the research that has been done should be ignored. I think the research that is being done should be looked at for what it is, and then accepted as a piece of the puzzle or hogwash depending on the review.

For example, ballistics gel results are an imperfect measure of human tissue, as it doesn't mimic ALL tissue, and bare gelatin doesn't accurately show what will happen when you factor in clothing, bone, etc. However, it is a decent way of showing what will happen to the bullet, and better tests (such as bone tests or denim tests, or even some of the crazy full-body recreations done on Mythbusters) can yield more precise results.

On the other hand, things like the one-stop shot theory (which, if you've seen the debunk, they give 10 examples and only show 3 cases which would even be considered in the statistic due to technicalities) have been debunked as complete rubbish by a good number of people.

But, as to "units", I've seen these in the past. The problem I have with this, is I've come to realize, somewhat like the OP but with different weights and considerations, that an XYZ formula isn't going to work. For example, if I say "penetration depth x caliber", that would imply that a dinner plate that penetrates a half inch would be better than a 9mm penetrating 12". Penetration over a certain amount would be a non-factor as well.

I guess you could get carried away with ranges, i.e. if penetration is less than 12", multiply by 0. If penetration is 12 < X < 18, multiply by penetration. If penetration is greater than 18, multiply by 18. However, at this point, I feel like you're looking more for a formula than you are at what actually makes the bullet tick.
 
I think 481 is looking for a formula
Again, thanks for your insight.

I am reminded of the Taylor Knock-Out Factor. Many can quote that it can be calculated by bullet mass (gr) times velocity (fps) times caliber (fraction of an inch) divided by 7000. See? All nice, easily measured quantities.

But that's not what the TKO is about at all. TKO is about Taylor's subjective impression (based on his memories of his vast personal experience shooting elephant) that different calibers (each typically with just one load available) produced different effects on elephant. Different calibers had different effectiveness, based on his subjective evaluation.

And so he toyed around with numbers and came up with a easily calculated formula that, he felt, approximated his experience.

None of us individually has his experience with elephant. Collectively, through publications and a lot of lore going back a long time, we have an awful lot of hunting experience that supports the impression that some calibers or loads have more effectiveness (more "knockdown" power, if you will) than others for a given animal.

It is being suggested (perhaps) that such a concept of effectivenss is hogwash, because it isn't based on some aspect of caliber like bullet weight, velocity, or diameter. But the TKO wasn't "based" on those aspects.

It was based on the subjective impression of one very experienced man. I am reluctant to discard subjective impressions, especially when they seem widespread and consistent. Even if I can't put a "unit" on subjective impression.
 
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Why does it require units?

Because without a unitary dimension it means nothing.

How else can you quantify it?

If you ask me what the temperature is outside and I say, "Oh, it's 39." you are gonna have one helluva hard time deciding what to wear unless I specify just what units I am using to quantify the temperature outside. Depending on the unitary system if we are in the US or Canada (for instance), you are either walking into a very warm day (if that's 39 degrees Centigrade) or into cold weather (if that's 39 degrees Fahrenheit). Without a unitary reference how do you know what clothing is most appropriate to respond to the info that I've just given you? Such a misunderstanding is likely to be pretty uncomfortable in either event.

What I'm talking about (others can speak for themselves) is effectiveness; perhaps especially how long an attacker remains aggressive, or how far an animal travels, after taking "a good hit."

It is a quality (not necessarily a quantity) that most seem to understand intuitively. Since you are on about units--what units would you propose? (Just guessing, but I would think that a "how long" unit might be seconds; and a "how far" unit might be feet.)

I wouldn't propose units for the concept of "stopping power" since it is a semantic abuse of a technical term. Using the term "power" (the ability of a force to do a specific amount of work upon an object within a certain period of time) to express the ability of a projectile "to stop" someone or something ignores the nearly infinite number of varibles present whenever a living organsim is shot.

How do you define a "good hit"?

Is it one that strikes only one specific organ? Must it strike the organ in a specified area?

Qualities can be measured, but the measurement must have a unitary denomination, otherwise it is a meaningless one. Time might be a possible unit but that assumes equal shot placement and organs struck (assuming a proper caliber, let's say a .30-06 180 gr. bullet; a gut shot deer takes much longer to go down than a one that is shot cleanly through the brain) how long it runs is just a function of time so that really doesn't rise to the task either.

For these reasons, percentages such as those used by M&S in their OSS tables are also worthless. Shootings are separate events, independent of one another; prior performance cannot be used to predict future performance.

Perhaps "effectiveness" as I've described it does not exist? That would seem odd, as most hunters (and I think most SD handgunners) seem to talk about it a lot.

I don't believe that it ("effectiveness") does. People talk about many things, but a general "feeling" and even concensus as to what works and what doesn't, doesn't confer validity or relevance all by itself.

"Intuititive" ≠ "valid"

If using the term simply "floats yer boat", well, that's another thing altogether...:cool:
 
Because without a unitary dimension it means nothing.
That is a philosophical stance. I think it is an error. Without a unit, someting cannot be quantitatively measured. It does not then follow that it means nothing. And besides, I did suggest units for "effectiveness."
For these reasons, percentages such as those used by M&S in their OSS tables are also worthless. Shootings are separate events
Voters are individuals, and yet we use polls to predict how they will vote. We consider a well-desinged, well-executed poll as valid even if it tells us NOTHING about how this particular voter will vote at this particular moment. And in fact, many more polls are quoted than are valid--and often "invalid" polls are pretty accurate.

Weather predictions? The betting "line" on a sporting event? These get proven wrong all the time for individual events. And yet few believe that you can't forecast the weather, or can't predict the outcome of a game within limits of probability.

Your observation that each shooting will be different does not invalidate the idea that general predictions could be made.
"Intuititive" ≠ "valid"
Perhaps not. But "intuitive" ≠ "invalid", either. Perhaps you've read The Gift of Fear, or Blink. Both speak about the fact that intuition can represent a very complex calculation of many factors, going on quickly, but below conscious awareness.

Both books tell us we ignore our intuition at our own peril.
 
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Again, thanks for your insight.

I am reminded of the Taylor Knock-Out Factor. Many can quote that it can be calculated by bullet mass (gr) times velocity (fps) times caliber (fraction of an inch) divided by 7000. See? All nice, easily measured quantities.

But that's not what the TKO is about at all. TKO is about Taylor's subjective impression (based on his memories of his vast personal experience shooting elephant) that different calibers (each typically with just one load available) produced different effects on elephant. Different calibers had different effectiveness, based on his subjective evaluation.

And so he toyed around with numbers and came up with a easily calculated formula that, he felt, approximated his experience.

None of us individually has his experience with elephant. Collectively, through publications and a lot of lore going back a long time, we have an awful lot of hunting experience that supports the impression that some calibers or loads have more effectiveness (more "knockdown" power, if you will) than others for a given animal.

It is being suggested (perhaps) that such a concept of effectivenss is hogwash, because it isn't based on some aspect of caliber like bullet weight, velocity, or diameter. But the TKO wasn't "based" on those aspects.

It was based on the subjective impression of one very experienced man. I am reluctant to discard subjective impressions, especially when they seem widespread and consistent. Even if I can't put a "unit" on subjective impression.
Nope, not looking for a formula.

Hatcher's RSP is an example of what I find to be an arbitrary (and useless) formula.

It is product (momentum multiplied times the projectile's cross-sectional/frontal area and an arbitrary shape factor) is nowhere nearly intricate enough to quantify the nearly infinite factors that influence the outcome of such an event (the shooting of a living being). Hatchers's RSP formula's result is nothing more than a nonsensical jumble of units.
 
Shootings are separate events, independent of one another; prior performance cannot be used to predict future performance.

While this is true, I don't think it is wrong to look at trends, or to look at the empirical information which will not change. While in case A a .22 stopped the target and in case B a .45 didn't (because, let's say, a .22 hit a vein and the .45 got unlucky and went through-and-through without hitting anything important), you can't make the assumption. However, you can say that if the .45 hit where the .22 did, it would have potentially hit more important stuff (and if the .22 hit where the .45 did, it would have definitely hit less).

Unfortunately, we do not have a horde of chained zombies to test this on.

Units are also not the only way to measure. "How cold is it outside?" I could answer "a bit warmer than yesterday". It won't give you an exact number, but it will tell you based on what you wore and how you felt yesterday, whether or not to wear a jacket today.

481, you seem to be an exact science person. I majored in psychology, and let me tell you, if you need units for everything, you would hate psychology. Even though in testing you can boil everything down into units when doing research, when it matters - (I've never had a patient, but we did vignettes in class) it's all based on context and feelings.

EDIT: Two of you posted while I was typing.

nowhere nearly intricate enough to quantify the nearly infinite factors that influence the outcome of such an event (the shooting of a living being). Hatchers's RSP formula's result is nothing more than a nonsensical jumble of units.

I think a lot of those factors, however, are going to be virtually irrelevant to the difference between caliber. I.e. whether you hit the target in the heart or shoot your neighbor's cat across the street is going to be based more on the gun, your skill with the gun, and how well you control yourself during the shooting. Caliber only plays a role here if A) you cannot accurately shoot something that powerful or B) you missed on follow-up shots due to the recoil.
 
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What was that shot, Loosed? I'm curious now.

EDIT: This is in response to your pre-edit comment regarding FBI deciding oblique shots and covered shots are important factors.
 
me said:
As a predictor of bullet effectiveness for unobstructed frontal shot ONLY, I think we'd find it very accurate. The FBI sure thought so...until they ran into an obstructed, oblique shot that they cared A LOT about.
What was that shot, Loosed? I'm curious now.
My apologies. I for a moment confused Hatcher's RSP with the NIJ/LEAA RII (Relative Incapacitation Index); that was the value entirely designed for unobstructed frontal shots. (I've edited my reply to 481, but reprinted part of the earlier reply above so I could respond to you more clearly).

The shot that "invalidated" the RII was the late Agent Dove's "perfect shot" during the Miami Shootout, the one that traversed an arm and collapsed a lung of the active shooter, but did not stop him until maybe 4 minutes later.
 
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That is a philosophical stance. I think it is an error. Without a unit, someting cannot be quantitatively measured. It does not then follow that it means nothing. And besides, I did suggest units for "effectiveness."Voters are individuals, and yet we use polls to predict how they will vote. We consider a well-desinged, well-executed poll as valid even if it tells us NOTHING about how this particular voter will vote at this particular moment. And in fact, many more polls are quoted than are valid--and often "invalid" polls are pretty accurate.

Nope, it's not a philosophical stance. That "39" means vastly different things depending upon what units (Fahrenheit or Centigrade) are applied.

You have yet to define what exactly constitutes "effectiveness" so any units, especially those expressing time or distance traveled per unit time cannot yet be said to represent "effectiveness".

Weather predictions? The betting "line" on a sporting event? These get proven wrong all the time for individual events. And yet few believe that you can't forecast the weather, or can't predict the outcome of a game within limits of probability.

Predictions mean nothing when we are considering independent events. No one shooting is has anything to with another. You can guess what the weather is based upon simple observations of atmospheric moisture in the evening (Example: High thin cirrus clouds indicate minimal moisture in the atmosphere and a lower chance for rain in the next 24 hours) because atmospheric systems have a set of characteristics that preceed/accompany them.

There are no such precursors for shootings.

Your observation that each shooting will be different does not invalidate the idea that general predictions could be made. Perhaps not. But "intuititive" ≠ "invalid", either. Perhaps you've read The Gift of Fear, or Blink. Both speak about the fact that intuition can represent a very complex calculation of many factors, going on quickly, but below conscious awareness.

Both books tell us we ignore our intuition at our own peril.

Sure. Intuition can be correct and it can be false, but it is not solid enough to hang your hat on, especially in when it comes to quantifying the term being tossed about here.

We can make general predictions like "someone that takes a bullet through the eye and into the crainial vault is likely to experience severe brain damage and immediate incapacitation or death" but the projectile has to land there first (shot placement). It's a factor that a term such as "stopping power" fails to consider and you must concede that it is a very important one at that.
 
I disagree. The RSP has some limited validity when considering FMJ bullets only.

So then, when it comes to FMJ bullets, you find the product of momentum times cross-sectional area times a dimensionless to be a valid measure of "effectiveness".

Using a .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ @ 850 fps as an example how do you reconcile the difference in performance between that bullet passing through the heart of a person and one that passes through someone's buttocks? They both possess the same "stopping power" (about "61"; "61" of what is another matter altogether) and should by that measure be equally "effective" (there's that word again) against an armed assailant.
 
It is a philosophical stance, because things can be relative without giving units, and often relative is much easier to understand. "How far is it to John's house?" "About half way to Seattle." Okay, so maybe the units are "distance to seattle" and the units to John's house are 0.5. Also, for anyone who's lived in Western Washington, we tell distance using time. "How far is it to Seattle?" I have no idea how many miles, but I can tell you it's 1-1.5 hours depending on traffic. Here, we are not arbitrarily assigning the .45 a designation. We are comparing it to the 9. If we had the number of units, we'd still compare it to the 9 to see which of the two is more effective. But we can make a comparison without units.

Predictions mean nothing when we are considering independent events. No one shooting is has anything to with another. You can guess what the weather is based upon simple observations of atmospheric moisture in the evening (Example: High thin cirrus clouds indicate minimal moisture in the atmosphere and a lower chance for rain in the next 24 hours) because atmospheric systems have a set of characteristics that preceed/accompany them.

There are no such precursors for shootings.

You are right in that weather is a continuum, and not a series of events. However, most of the factors associated with shootings are independent of caliber selection. Those which are based on caliber selection, you can see some of the factors in a lab setting or based on prior events, which give you a good idea of what will happen.

You bring up shot placement, and like I said above - unless it is related to your inability to handle the recoil (on the first shot) or your inability to compensate for recoil on follow-up shots, placement is largely independent of caliber. This of course assumes the target isn't more than 30 feet away.

A judge of the capability of the round in the given scenario wouldn't be "if I shoot this bullet, what is the amount of damage it will cause." But rather, it would be "if I hit someone in X (be it lung, heart, etc) how much damage will it cause?"

In your example, the question to ask would be:
If I hit the target in the head with ____ caliber, what is the likelihood that the round will penetrate the skull? If it does penetrate the skull, what is the likely amount of brain damage we can assume?

Yes, there are a lot of possibilities, and a lot of factors for each possibility (i.e. if you hit the target in the chest, what is the chance of hitting a major blood vessel, how much organ damage can you expect, etc. etc.). However, this is what we are comparing.


EDIT:
Using a .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ @ 850 fps as an example how do you reconcile the difference in performance between that bullet passing through the heart of a person and one that passes through someone's buttocks? They both possess the same "stopping power" (about "61"; "61" of what is another matter altogether) and should by that measure be equally "effective" (there's that word again) against an armed assailant.

Because the measure of power assumes decent placement. Okay, it's hard to define placement. However, we're not comparing a .22 to the hand and a .45 to the chest. We're comparing a .22 to the chest to a .45 to the chest. Or we're comparing a .22 to the hand to a .45 to the hand. Are all shots going to be in the same spot? No. However, I do believe if I got into a gunfight with a .45, and then you rewound time and (with everything else equal) gave me a .22, I would hit the target in the same spot.
 
While this is true, I don't think it is wrong to look at trends, or to look at the empirical information which will not change. While in case A a .22 stopped the target and in case B a .45 didn't (because, let's say, a .22 hit a vein and the .45 got unlucky and went through-and-through without hitting anything important), you can't make the assumption. However, you can say that if the .45 hit where the .22 did, it would have potentially hit more important stuff (and if the .22 hit where the .45 did, it would have definitely hit less).

None of these variables are accounted for by the term, "stopping power". Therin lies the fallacy of such a construct.

Units are also not the only way to measure. "How cold is it outside?" I could answer "a bit warmer than yesterday". It won't give you an exact number, but it will tell you based on what you wore and how you felt yesterday, whether or not to wear a jacket today.

You could answer that way, but that ignores what I percieve to be as "a bit warmer than yesterday". If I grew up in a tropical climate and you in an Acrtic clime, your perception may seem negligible to me.

481, you seem to be an exact science person. I majored in psychology, and let me tell you, if you need units for everything, you would hate psychology. Even though in testing you can boil everything down into units when doing research, when it matters - (I've never had a patient, but we did vignettes in class) it's all based on context and feelings.

Almost everything that we deal with in psychology is intangible- feelings, emotions, etc. Here we are dealing with a physical manifestation (incapactiation, tissue damage, death) of an effect or set of effects. Two different disciplines that have little to do with one another.


I think a lot of those factors, however, are going to be virtually irrelevant to the difference between caliber. I.e. whether you hit the target in the heart or shoot your neighbor's cat across the street is going to be based more on the gun, your skill with the gun, and how well you control yourself during the shooting. Caliber only plays a role here if A) you cannot accurately shoot something that powerful or B) you missed on follow-up shots due to the recoil.

Of course, hence the problem with the term "stopping power". It considers very little of what actually happens when bullets hit bodies.
 
Because the measure of power assumes decent placement.

And therein lies the fallacy of "stopping power". How important is shot placement?

Shouldn't a valid term consider that?
 
That "39" means vastly different things depending upon what units (Fahrenheit or Centigrade) are applied.
Yes. But before we invented either the F or C scales, we still knew what temperature was, and still could tell the difference between hot and cold.

Your example perfectly illustrates my point: back when we didn't have units for temperature, that didn't mean that it, in your words, meant "nothing." And even if we don't have units for effectiveness, we know what it is, and the difference between ineffective and effective.
There are no such precursors for shootings
Sure there are. I go hunting frequently :))). I can predict the rough size of my quarry, the location of its "good hit" area, and the range; from personal experience of that of other hunters, I can select a caliber, load, and arm that I can predict will be "effective." All predictions.

SD shootings have similar predictable variables. Not that predictions are perfect.
it is not solid enough to hang your hat on
Nor is it flimsy enough to discard.

Look, you have your own personal philosophy about SD caliber choices. Perhaps you believe that only hits that produce lethal wounds (CNS hits or rapid hemorrahge) should be considered effective...and you remain unshaken in that belief despite the data that most people shot by handguns survive; they stopped fighting, but death was not the mechanism.

Perhaps you believe that only loads that produce a 12-inch minimum penetration should be carried..and you remain unshaken in that belief despite the fact that "lesser" loads can and have stopped fights quickly.

I can't tell you what to believe, and I wouldn't try. The FBI has a theory of effectiveness that involves a requirement to disrupt vital structures, anticipated angles of bullet incidence to the body, and intermediate barriers. It's a fine theory.

But the lack of valid shooting data works both ways: since we have no "valid" shooting database, we cannot experimentally validate M&S's ideas...and we cannot experimentally validate the FBI's ideas.

They're just two theories. Some folks apparently have a different goal than I would in a SD shooting: they want to put a hole this big by that big in the attacker. That's fine. But I want to stop the attacker. The FBI is offering me penetration as a fetish, a substitute for what I really want: a stop.

Me? I'll keep my eyes on the true prize--and I'll keep my eyes open.
 
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