If you shoot sub-MOA at 25 yds offhand with handguns, do not bother to read

I'm better than a lot of shooters at the ranges I go to, but I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of people. I used to shoot with a group of bowling pin shooters. They started with a table of full sized pins at 45 feet, and ended up with a table of the top half of pins at 45 feet. And some of those guys could clean that table as fast as you could pull the trigger 10 times. Some with a .22lr, some with a 45ACP, one guy used a revolver because semi-autos weren't a challenge. I just shot for fun with that group.

I've only been in the gun community now for a couple years but one thing that has always perplexed me is people claiming that they can shoot groups that are extraordinarily small compared to what is seen in real life.

Click to expand...

Read what browningguy said. How many Bullseye, Steel Plate, Benchrest, IDPA, or GSSF matches have you participated in?

If you're just observing what the typical non-competitive local yokels can do, then you have no idea of what can be seen in real life.

It's all relative to who you're shooting with and what you're shooting.

I've shot a few Highpower rifle matches (see my signature line) and I have shot some pretty small groups with iron sights using my AR Service Rifle. Somewhere I have a cut-out of a target with the first 5-shots through my new barrel last season. It's 2" at 200-yards, shot prone. No load work-up, no testing, no "barrel break-in", I just dug out some "scrap" ammo and went to the range.

At the same time, I've seen some incredible shooting by others that makes me shake my head in wonder. And enough to know some claims truly are absurd.

(Oh, and on a good day my 25-yd handgun groups hover around 4".)

My wife and I admit to being mediocre shooters. Our handguns are a 6" model 19 S&W, 4" Colt Diamondback, High Standard .22 and Colt Gold Cup. The black bullseye in our targets is 5.5" in diameter. We shoot slowly at 25 yards, cocking the revolvers between shots. Holding with one hand or both, but not a rest, we are pleased when we can keep all our shots in the black. Results are about the same for all of our guns. We have seen shooters who are better, especially those who compete in bullseye, but many who are not as good.

I can guarantee that this 57 year old gun shot this well at 100 yards with American Eagle .357 ammo and the shooter's wrist resting on a sand bag:

I just take this BS with a grain of salt and move on.

The best part is, this type of consistent shooting does not exist in reality.

Click to expand...

Yes it does, but you have to handload your own ammo just for your own rifle or pistol.

Get into reloading and see how much better you will be able to shoot.

This is a stock Savage Model 110 package gun in 270 Wichester with no special work on it, standard stock that came with the rifle, scope has been changed and handloaded 130 grain Hornady SST's at 100 yards 5 shot group. It takes pratice more pratice and even more practice.

Jim

This is one of my less accurate rifles.






I no longer use the bullseyes with this rifle, I just use the cross haches on my targets since the bullseye is too large a target at 100 yards.



You have to WANT to shoot small groups to be good at it and take the necessary work to get there.

100 yards with a .243 Winchester 88 off a bag with Federal 80 Grain Soft Point (the cheap stuff):

Nice rifles. But I think the OP was mostly concerned with claims of handgun accuracy, as indicated by the thread title.

For my part, I'm not a great shot, but not a terrible shot. I remember when 100 yard targets seemed like they were right on top of me, but my eyes have aged to the point that 25 yards seems pretty far away. So it goes.

Try a diopter when shooting handgun

My shooting improved a lot when I got glasses. It improved a lot more when I got a Savage in .243.

On the other hand my cousin shot 1 hole groups at 300 yards with his M-16 when he was in the Marines. He did use his glasses. I didn't believe him.

It's not just the internet.

After a while you'll learn to ID those who can vs those who talk. Quite a lot of amazing stuff is done by those who take the time to perfect the art.

I am not a great shooter, but I'm getting better.

When I first started seriously shooting handguns about 10 years ago, I was doing good to keep my groups in an 8" pie plate at ten yards. The last time I went to the indoor range I frequent, I took a couple of semi-autos and a 6 shot snubnosed revolver cause I like shooting it. Towards the end of my session, I got out a box of .38 special, loaded up the snubbie, and cranked the target all the way out to 25 yards. With that gun, I can now consistently keep six rounds inside a 2 inch circle at that range firing off hand.

If someone had told me that I would be able to do that when I first started shooting, I'd have called them a liar. If my vision will hold out, I think I can get better yet. I still have weaknesses I'm working on.

bushmaster1313 said:

Try a diopter when shooting handgun

Click to expand...

I've considered it, but I don't really attempt much precision shooting with a handgun nowadays. I'm down to just my CCW, and manage OK at typical SD distances.

What I really need to do is get in to an optometrist and get my eyes examined and get some glasses. Unfortunately, my eyes started to go right before I had another major medical issue that I'm not fully recovered from.

I shoot with one of our Bullseye competitors at the local range and he is a fair shot. He can use his race gun and selected batch of ammo to shoot a 10 shot group at the 50 foot NRA target that you can cover with a quarter, or on a good night a nickel----and do it all night long. Helps that at Camp Perry each year he is at least in the top 15 shooters year after year. He said it is not the group size that wins or looses it is group placement that is king. He he It helps to have a goal to aim for and I want to at least match him once. I was at the gun club last weekend sighting in a new scope and there were a couple late teen--20's fellows shooting at torso targets and at 15 feet they missed the targets more than they hit them. I thought one guy was going to hit his boot with a bullet one time. I let them both try my crappy NEF SB2 in .223 that I had just sighted in and they both hit the plastic peanut butter jar cover I had tacked on the target backer at 100 YDS within 2 shots using my reloads. They both thought that rifle was really a good one.

I can shoot OK but have lots of room for improvement.

there are no guarantees. there are $2,000 lemons out there. there are $200 tack drivers out there.

you pay your money and take your chances.

murf

I believe some shooters are better than others, some guns are inherently more accurate than others. Things here are imbellished a bit, stretched a bit and written for the entertainment of the reader. This is the internet, and afterall, we're all tough guys here, we're all doctors & lawyers here. You can be whatever you want to be here. It's a dream world and if you're just going to be your boring old self, what's the point?

Best I've ever managed consistently is quarter size (not quarter inch!) 20 yard groups with a very nice Official Police shooting 158 grain LRN's. But these days I focus on 15 yard rapid fire going for fist-size groups. I try not to waste much time aiming.

but you have to handload your own ammo just for your own rifle or pistol.

Click to expand...

Yes but are you shooting those big, scoped rifles with bipods off hand? It's not difficult to get consistent groups when your rifle or handgun is rested.

If you stick long enough, somebody will say,they put all 10 shots into the same hole. Plus,they can do it at 1000 yds.......off hand using a 22 cal using only "shorts" for ammo. More power to them...I say.
Seems some shoot way better than trained snipers according to them.

I used to race bicycles, motorcycles and dabbled in car racing. Recreational people thought they knew what fast was. Going to an event would shock them. A ride in a car with a fast driver could be a terrifying epiphany.
Going to any handgun match will do it for a shooter. I live in Louisiana and recently had 2 guys from out of state tell me the level of shooters in LA is pretty high.
Seeing anything at a competitive level gives you a chance to be astounded. Local model building competitions proved some people were just head & shoulders above the rest. If you ever attend a duck carving show you might be wowed by what you see.
People are just awesome in general. A hardworking obsessed human being is a force of nature. The work part is often under appreciated.

I'll say it's a 50/50 split. There are some amazing shooters out there and a ton of really good average ones. With that said there are an equal number of "mall ninja operators" who claim 100yrd DNs accuracy while barrel rolling and finishing with a slew of "quickscoping" shots with their airsoft AR that no collective group of bandits could ever escape. If you are at the range tell 'em to put up or shut up and if you are online just tell 'em to shut up. Don't be surprised when a few leave you with your jaw hanging at the feat of extreme speed and accuracy you just witnessed though. Practice with any one or number of guns enough and anyone can get really really good.

I think it is just like anything else. You can be pretty darn good in your own right, but there is almost certainly someone out there that can blow you out of the water.

I consider myself a really good ballplayer, but I am still not even close to the same level as college players or minor leagues, much less the majors. That's how it is with shooting.

Now, if all you ever knew was your co-ed recreational softball league, and you were the all-star, you'd probably be pretty dismissive of someone saying they could jack a 500' homer. But if Jim Thome stepped into the box and did just that, and you saw it with your own eyes, you would believe it.

The public range is the rec league. The high-level competitions are the major leagues. It's hard to even compare.

Impureclient said:

I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do you weed out fact from fiction on accuracy when purchasing a new firearm?

Click to expand...

By now, you should've gotten the message that one answer is to start competing.

For one thing, if you're soley shooting at the "rec league" (the local stand-n-shoot range), you're wholly dependent on the internet for the info you seek, and you're now finding that unreliable. And once you start competing, you'll see what's do-able with practice, while the competition will up your own game. And you'll be able to talk firsthand with good shooters about what really works and what doesn't. You might be surprised when you do, though - compared to many on these forums, competitive shooters seem to obsess less on gear and more on shooting. That's why they're good shooters, after all.

It's been pretty well covered, but I'll reiterate a few points.

Few are willing to spend the time, money and effort (read work) to become above average, let alone very good or exceptional. Many competitive shooters are very good or exceptional. Read up on the old time exhibition shooters, they were just flat stunningly amazing, and they did it in front of hundreds of people at a time on a regular basis. Hitting small objects tossed in the air isnt "trick" shooting (and no, the real deals dont use shot loads), its outstanding shooting, and it's real. Jordan was reportedly able to hit 5 asprin tablets thrown in the air. Other exhibiton shooters have been able to consistantly shoot through the hole in a washer thrown in the air, with tape over the hole to prove it. Some people are also just real good at certain things, having a natural aptitude for some thngs, and having outstanding eyesight helps.

Just because the local crowd, or any individual can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done. Spend enough time and effort getting good at somethng, and you may amaze even yourself, but be prepared for others that can't do it to call you a liar.

Some people also simply aren't intereted in competition. Just because they can do something well doesn't mean they are interested in playing that particular game with it. They dont have to prove anything to you or anyone else, they know what they can do, and enjoy it for its own sake. I knew one such shooter. He was quite capable of hitting silver dollars thrown in the air, making 300 yard hits on rocks the size of a gallon jug, and shooting cigarettes out of people mouths, and I'd seen him do those things, as had many others. He did some local exhibiton shooting over the years, but had absolutely no interest in shooting competions of any sort (and he would have cleaned house had he wanted to), he simply loved shooting, and the history associated with it. He shot everything with a Colt SAA 45, all one handed. He was probably not quite as good as some of the well known exhibition shooters, but to say he was pretty good may be an understatement. I shot with him a few times, and saw some of is exhibtion shoots. He inspired me to try harder, and at things I hadn't pushed myself to do before. For my part, I take the naysayers with a grain of salt, not the other way around.

I agree with Mr Borland, competition can be a very good motivator and teacher. It doesnt appeal to some, tho if they have the motivation, can become very good, if not outstanding.

I'm a fair shot. I shot rife team in High School ROTC and was okay. Now shooting very many years later I'm happy shooting 100 rounds and keeping my shots within the inner part of the 9 ring on a silhouette target at 15 yards with my 686 3 inch. Some day I'll do it at 25 yards. What is sad is I see other people at the range that think they are doing great when the target looks like it was hit with multiple rounds of birdshot.