Target Shooting - Is Anyone Telling The Truth?

[armoredman]

I like that target, any problem with bounce back?
I am not the worlds greates shot, but I can say I have gotten some really great groups, out of a collection of good, great, and downright AWFUL. Somedays I am on, and sometimes not.
One thing I will not lie about is how I shoot. Others may, that's between them and thier conscience.

 

[krs]

This was the subject of a thread just a week or so ago.

YES!! Bullseye competitors can and do shoot 2" or better (if they want to win in their class they'd better shoot in the 90%+ area on the reduced slow fire/timed rapid fire target at 25 yds) That target has a 1" "X" ring, a 1.5" 10 ring, and each following ring out to seven is about 3/8" bigger than the one inside of it.

When I was doing bullseye I broke into the 2600 club twice which is 260 shots of ten points out of 270 total shots in a three gun match.

Learn all about it and learn how to shoot, you slackers and unbelievers here: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

And I'd pretty much gaurantee you that every person you see in these photos can shoot 2" groups one handed and unsupported over and over. If they couldn't they wouldn't be at Camp Perry, which is the bullseye mecca in this country.

http://lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/perry2000/


SFC Herschell Anderson still holds the record of a 2680 (out of a possible 2700) in the NRA outdoor pistol course of fire that includes firing at both 50 and 25 yds with a .22, a centerfire, and a .45. He had 159 of hose 270 shots in the 1" X ring and only missed the 1.5" approx) 10 ring 20 times out of the same 270. I remember when that record was set and bullseye shooters across the country admired it. He was an Army team (AMTU) shooter on a team of champion level guys who took top awards in world games, the olympics in International pistol as well as cleaning most every match they attended. I saw them at the 1978 California Pistol Championships. They pulled up to the firing points, seperate from everyone else on that LONG line, in big blue Buicks and the driver hopped out to hump their pistol boxes onto the line. Then they all fired by themselves as though no one else was there and piled back into the Buicks and left. The match took three days for everyone else to complete because they squaded the line into three separate groups. And when the three days were over and we gathered around the scoreboard to find our names guess who was at the top in each event. They all had dark blue jackets and acted like the shooting rock stars they were. http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp

 

[M2 Carbine]

I like that target, any problem with bounce back?

Not at all.

Actually my backyard range is made up of steel plate and bullet traps that I've been shooting for way over 20 years, many thousands of rounds, from normally 7 yards and further back.


Standard speed pistol bullets will shatter to dust and small harmless pieces. The problem comes from slow bullets that don't "blow up" on the steel and pieces as large as half the bullet will bounce back. Even these won't do more than scratch you.
There have been people hurt by bullets bouncing back but I'd bet there's more to it than the bullet just hitting the steel plate. It's a fact that a bullet can be turned back at you. I've had it happen several times.

 

[krs]

LOL! Deaf cat?

good looking backyard setup.

 

[M2 Carbine]

krs
LOL! Deaf cat?

good looking backyard setup.

Yeah, that's Mo. He's got to get into everything. I have to put him up when I shoot, he wants to keep checking out the targets.
This day he didn't like the way I was setting up the chronograph.

That dirt pile covers a storm cellar. May as well get some use out of it.

 

[CAS700850]

On the issue of accuracy, I see it as two kinds of accuracy. There's target accuracy, meaning slow deliberate fire on a target. Then there's combat accuracy, which means faster deliberate fire on a target. I've got a buddy who is an excellent target shot. He can shoot the sub-two inch groups at 25 yards with most of his revolvers, using slow and well aimed shots. Personally, I can generally keep it in the 3'-4" range. If we change to combat shooting, meaning fast and multiple targets, his groups open up to basically inside the 7 ring on a B-27 target. On the other hand, I keep my combat groups inside the 9 ring on a B-27, meaning about 6 inch groups. My most common combat target is a piece of legal paper, and I can keep all of my shots on that page at 25 yards.

It's all in what you practice, and practice is the key. good shooting!

 

[Phydeaux642]

I think many confuse yards for feet.

MJRW, I think you may be right.

The problem today is that the perception of combat (target) shooting has all but eliminated serious training and practice in basic marksmanship - which should be learned first before any other kind of shooting is gone into.

Old Fuff, I think you are exactly right. I notice many of the people that shoot at the range I shoot at would fall into the "Mall Ninja" category.

I know that there are many really good marksmen out there. In fact, I wish that I could be around some of them to get some helpful hints.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm a Bullseye pistol competitor. When I'm in form, I can usually shoot 96/100on the 50' NRA timed (20 seconds) and rapid (10 seconds) targets with my High Standard .22. I can usually shoot 90/100 on the slowfire. I've never shot 100/100 on the slowfire, but have shot 100/100 on both the timed and rapid a number of times. I can do similarly on the NRA 25 yard timed and rapid and 50 yard slowfire targets. I do almost as well with my .38 Special M1911, and not nearly as well with the .45.

 

[Marcus L.]

As others have said, there is precision shooting and combat shooting. I once saw a guy shoot playing cards with a .38spl snub nose revolver at 100yrds. He was steady, had good breathing control, and consistant trigger manipulation. However, in an actual fight, those skills are of little value.

If you ever get into a gun fight, your heart rate will go from a resting pulse of about 60-70bpm, to almost 200bpm with excessive adrenaline dump. This is what we call combat stress. You get tunnel vision, you loose a significant amount of coordination, and your hands shake. After about 5-15minutes you run out of adrenaline and your heart rate returns to a rate that you can function more normally. It is a common practice in squad based military engagements to allow for a pre-combat anxiety reliever before engaging. This is why law enforcement has adapted to trying to compensate for this using gross motor skill techniques and improved physical training. The better physical shape you are in, the better you will handle combat stress. In combat handgun courses where you have to run around keeping your heart rate very high, the guys that are in the best shape perform best while the expert target shooters who are out of shape tend to do the worst. I'm not just talking accuracy, but fumbling for controls, making magazine exchanges, and performing malfunction clearing drills.

Stay in the best shape you can, practice dynamic shooting scenarios, and constantly work on magazine exchanges, malfunction clearing, and gross motor skill movements.

 

[Rager]

Phydeaux642, and you said just for fun...

Several years ago a few of us went out and set up on a 100yd range. Hand guns and long guns. Just shooting, targets, water bottles, jugs. I'd never shot with any of them and I was still pretty new to my box stock G17.

One buddy, who I knew had done a lot of shooting and had a fair collection, well, I offered him my Glock.

Standing, two handed, he took his time and winged an antifreeze jug at 50 yds. 1st shot. There mighta been a percentage of luck, but it told me I could sure do better.

 

[StrawHat]

Old Fuff has a good handle on this, (probably has the T shirt too). How you practice will determine what kind of accuracy you can expect.

I started out shooting rocks in the back forty and thought I was pretty good. Then I joined a PPC league! It took a while but I managed to learn and enjoyed that sport also. The one thing that PPC taught me was to use the sights.

Also to use the double action.

We practiced with no time limits and never broke a shot until we thought it perfect. Very humbling. Once a session we would fire the full course with the time limits imposed. After a few thousand sessions, I started to get the hang of it.

A lot of shooters pooh-pooh PPC and Bullseye, but usually they are the ones who are not competitive in that disciplined style. If you can shoot either of those two disciplines, moving to "combat" shooting should not be too difficult.

Another thing I found was that my scores were not all that different between the 2", 4" and 6" barreld revolvers. Most of the competitors reported the same thing.

 

[MrBorland]

I notice many of the people that shoot at the range I shoot at would fall into the "Mall Ninja" category.

If you want to improve your marksmanship, one piece of advice is to not let others at the range or their keyboard distract you. Concentrate. Even giving the "Mall Ninjas" that label suggests you're distracted. Ignore them, just as you should your own (or anyone else's) recoil. Concentrate. Your own shooting. Front sight.

I know that there are many really good marksmen out there. In fact, I wish that I could be around some of them to get some helpful hints.

Consider competing in bullseye. In addition, Jst1mr gave some great advice in an earlier post:

There are true "students of the game" - those who bother to study the technique and practice, practice, practice....and there are those who just enjoy banging away. Nothing wrong with either, but if you truly want to get better, there are tons of technique books and/or training available.

There's lot of info available on-line and in books. Dig for them, and avail yourself of these resources. Be a student. Read as much of it as you can, then sift the wheat from the chaff. And practice, concentrate, repeat.

 

[Jim Watson]

If you are a "precision" shooter, you ought to be shooting NRA.
If you are an "action" shooter, you ought to be shooting IPSC or IDPA.

NRA keeps scores, IPSC and IDPA keep times.

Whichever you want to improve, shooting with an organized group makes it hard to remember your good days (or good individual targets) and forget the bad, which seems a common Internet Marksmanship habit.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I shoot better then most. And not as good as some...

 

[Tacbandit]

Deercop
Quote:
"However, compared to quite of few of the keyboard commandos, I'm a horrible shot. So there's really no doubt in my mind that there's a LOT of BS floating around."





Guaranteed, Deercop.......
But I'm sure there are a lot of great shooters, too. I'm tryinq to get more comfortable with my Kimber(Procarry)... I'm pretty good at 10 yds, but not as consistant as I'd like...Changed over from a Glock 26 for carry...I don't get to shoot as much as I'd like...That's the key...shoot-shoot-shoot

 

[BADUNAME37]

It's honestly hard for me to say just how accurate I am. I know my guns are accurate, and like I've said in various posts, "if I do my part." As long as my guns are on, I have no reason to spend 35 bucks to join the range for a year if I only go once or twice. Right now, all my guns are sighted in and I didn't join this year (the year runs Jan 1 to Jan 1). The main reason for NOT joining this year was purely financial. I'm only spending money on what I need to. The gas prices and heating oil prices have sure hurt me.

I do know that I was shooting red squirrels that were a nuisance using my Ruger Mark II Target Pistol and was only using one hand (my good hand), as the other arm was in a sling after surgery. That was several winters ago and I shot 13 in three days (about 1/2 to 1 hour per day).

Most shots were fairly close, out to maybe 15 yards. Other shots were farther, up in the tops of some trees at a distance (roughly 80 yards). I was hitting most with one shot, but I was using a wooden porch banister to rest my gun on.

With my 4" S&W 500, I sighted it in and found the load I wanted shooting at 50 yards (it was 50 yards, as I was in the rifle range and the target was halfway down the 100 yard range). Once I had everything adjusted, I shot five shots. One shot was 3" off from center and the other four shots were in a 1.5" (one and a half inch) group in the bullseye. I have the target downstairs from that with the date, the speed the bullet was chronied and the fact that it was a fairly calm day (calm enough that the little breeze sure wasn't blowing those bullets).

Several days ago, I blistered a woodchuck when I was out bear hunting. The owners of the property want me to shoot any woodchucks I see. When I first spotted him, I was about 60 yards away and coming out of a trail from the woods. I got to the edge of the woods, and couldn't find a sufficient branch to rest the gun on and my heart was really pounding.

I decided I would sneak up on him. I had some camo on. Every time he was down eating the lush green grass, I was slowly moving. Every time he got up, I froze. I got to about 15 yards and was going to take an offhand (two handed) shot, but my heart was beating so hard I realized I needed a rest. I knelt down on my right knee and used my left knee to support my left elbow. I was watching him about 5 minutes and finally I touched the 500 S&W 4" off.

It pretty much turned him inside out with most of his lungs and heart missing completely. I looked around, couldn't find the parts in line with where the bullet would have gone, and figured part of him got vaporized.

Am I a good shot? I don't know and I don't claim to be. I only tell you what I've done. I certainly could use a lot more practice, that's for sure. I am much better with the pistol resting against something or on something. If I had the choice of resting any gun on anything as opposed to shooting offhand, I would take a rest any day. That's why I have two Harris bipods. I believe in one shot, one kill.

I did say in one post that I shot 1/4" groups at 200 yards with my accurized 22-250. I went downstairs later on and measured the group. It was 1/2" not 1/4" at 200 yards. Sorry, my bad. I guess I was thinking of 1/4" at 100 and 1/2 at 200.

I do know I've done an awful lot of shooting since the 60's when I belonged to the NRA and got a Sharpshooter third bar when I was 12 in 1968 for smallbore (22 heavy barrel) 50 foot indoor range near where I used to live.

 

[krs]

Absolutely there are differences in target shooting and the combat styles.

When I was competing in bullseye pistol it was the only pistol game open to civilians as far as I knew. I had a shooting buddy named Greg Roberts who had been a top level police pistol competitor while he was a deputy sheriff but wasn't qualified to do it any longer when he left the department and started a company (reloading for police dept.'s).

There weren't the variety of shooting competitions then as there are now and I wouldn't take a thing away from someone who shootss relatively large groups in the timed events. They're good but their concentration is different.

I remember realizing that I couldn't hit a beer can without my six o'clock hold on a bullseye target at the specified ranges. I could shoot bullseye but I couldn't do near as well informally.

 

[TexasRifleman]

This was slow fire, 2 hand, 25 yards. What is it, 3 maybe 3.5"?

2 inches? Not me. No way I could shoot 2 inches at 25 yards.

Doesn't mean someone else can't. It is silly to lie about, that's for sure.

 

[Trebor]

I can consistently shoot 4" to 6" groups at our measured 25 yard handgun range from a two handed, standing position. Sometimes I can do a litle better, but not THAT much better. (And, somtimes I'll do a little worse, but not THAT much worse. 4" to 6" inches standing seems about normal for me)

I can also completely MISS at even closer ranges, as my HORRIBLE score at a recent IDPA testifies. Anyone ever shoot -26 on not one, but TWO, targets on a single stage? (Six shots per target)

Just proves that if go too fast, and don't pay attention to the front sight, I can miss at a heck of a lot closer then 25 yards.

If I do pay attention to the front sight, and maintain a good trigger pull, I can shoot a DA revolver or a SA pistol into about the same 4" to 6" group at 25 yards.

 

[rcmodel]

Most "combat grade" semi-auto pistols of any brand, & most ammo, won't consistently hold 2" at 25 yards, no matter who is shooting it.
Even out of a Machine rest.

On the otherhand, a Match Grade 1911, or Model 41, shooting match grade ammo, will shoot one ragged hole at 50 yards out of a Ransom Rest.

Or out of a championship level Bullseye shooters hand, standing on their hind legs, and with one hand in their pocket.

rcmodel

 

[f4t9r]

If the target is big enough I can hit it from about any distance.
Now thats some good shooting !!!!!

 

[Majic]

Just remember that because you can't do it or haven't seen it done doesn't mean it can't be done. I have been to ranges that past 15 yards the shooters couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Then there are ranges where 25 yards is where you start to put your targets. The better shooters are seldom seen among the short distance shooters. They either distance themselves from the other shooters or use different ranges. The range we managed had the range shack on the firing line. On one side targets could be set up for 7 to 15 yards. The other side you could shoot from 25 to 100 yards. Some folks are naturally good shooters and others put in the time to achieve the high skill level needed for distance shooting.

 

[VegasOPM]

You ever been fishing? If so, how big was your biggest "undocumented" catch?

Of course we lie about shooting- that is what sportsman do. Seriously though, I shoot with some Master Class shooters and 2" offhand at 25yds ain't easy.

 

[DaveBeal]

Shooting .22LR slow fire bullseye (one handed) with a red dot on an NRA B-16 target at 75 feet, I can occasionally put 9 of 10 rounds in the black (5.32 inches in diameter). 7 or 8 is more likely. I think I've put all 10 in the black once or twice. But I've only been shooting less than a year.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I would put a target out back of my house (I live in a rural area), however I do have some neighbors and one in particular is ANTI-GUN and ANTI-SHOOTING and ANTI-HUNTING!

So, in order to just shoot 5 rounds down in my (own) woods, I have to deal with this $%$@#r-#!@*$% neighbor. Otherwise, I'd place a target at 25 yards and take my 500 down just to see how I would do.

Now, even I'm curious to see what I could realistically do offhand!

I am however confident enough in my loads, my sights, my gun and myself that I could drop a black bear or deer. If it is a far shot (out to 150 yards max), I would definately need to rest on something as I don't want to hit the animal in the gut, only to have it die an agonizing death with coyotes waiting to eat (or even NOT WAITING).

I believe anything under 40 or so yards I could confidently shoot offhand (of course it takes two hands to shoot the 500 - at least two of MY HANDS!). When I was at the range last fall (I had a 2007 pass), I was shooting some of the barn burner factory loads that I have and I wasn't even certain where the point of imact was for those loads. There was a grapefruit-sized rock on a bank that was about 15 yards away and I shot it about 9 out of ten times. The first time, when I saw the bullet hit a bit high, I new I had to aim low for that ammo. Then, for the rest of the cylinder (4 shots) and a full cylinder, I was bouncing the rock around. I don't know if that ammo shot well in my gun or not, as I didn't try any groups on paper.

I have a box that has about 300 rounds of various factory loads which I purchased right after I got the gun. When I started working up loads for it, I bought 500 empty brass cases. Working up the loads used at least 300 of the cases, using various bullets, different powders and weights of powders. When I saw which bullet the gun liked (it liked several, actually), I loaded up different weights of the powder it liked with that bullet.

When I shot my black bear back around 1982, it was with a 270 and handloads (Hornady 130g spire with IMR 4350 powder). I shot it in the neck from a distance no greater than 25 yards. The bullet broke his neck and there was a small hole going in and a small exit hole with a cavity within his neck the size of a large fist. Gutted and weighed it was 160 pounds (the rug is in my office).

Had that been today, I could easily drop him with my 500 Magnum! That's part of the reason I am handgun hunting. Any big game I see around here is typically less than 50 yards, especially in heavy woods.