Target Shooting - Is Anyone Telling The Truth?

[loop]

Phy,

You kind of hit the nail on the head. I enjoy having the reputation of being one of the most accurate pistol shooters in my 1,200-member club.

I test a gun by its ability to shoot a 2-inch group from a rest at 10 yards. If it won't do that from my hands, I sell it.

In our latest IDPA match we set up a six-inch steel plate at a measured 20 yards. Of all the people in the match only 15 percent (myself included) hit it on the first shot. And, 15 percent never hit it.

It is really easy to be a good shot on an Internet forum. Put you up against a clock, with 30 people watching (and that is a lot less pressure than one person shooting back at you) and it is not the same.

I know some really good shots. I know some really fast shots. I know a couple really good, really fast shots. Among those folks are Olympic gold medal shooters and a few USPSA world champions.

The best shots I know (speed and accuracy combined) work for DEA. They work alone with no backup. I can't even mention their fake names, but I can tell you this - they can't shoot a 2-inch group offhand at 25 yards. But, at 7 yards they can put two in CM and one in the head in less time than it takes me to fire one un-aimed round.

I meet these guys at LE matches. They have the best stories I've ever heard when the match is over and we're at the local saloon...

 

[skyflyer]

i think some people tend to exaggerate about many things.

sometimes about fuel mileage or the great deal they got.

i have noticed the better shots i know all have something in common.

reloading it seems in the quest for accurate rounds,you become a more accurate shooter.

 

[.38 Special]

Just in the interest of trying to attach some hard numbers to the discussion -- and because "What constitutes good shooting?" comes up regularly at THR...

The NRA categorizes handgun shooters into five groups: Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and High Master. To earn these ratings (as a "traditional" handgunner, as opposed to the participants in the run 'n gun "action" games) one has to average less than 85 points, between 85 to 90 points, between 90 and 95 points, between 95 and 97 points, and above 97 points respectively, on approved NRA targets.

Now, to put that in perspective: an "informal" expectation is that the entry level -- ie. Marksman -- competitor can keep all his shots in the scoring rings, or at least on paper. The official 25 yard slowfire target (the B-16) measures 10.5 x 12". The outer scoring ring, worth five points, measures a bit over 9.5". That's probably a fair "I don't completely suck out loud" standard.

Consistent scores of eighty percent, while not qualifying one for any special award, have been informally considered the floor for "decent" shooting. Many of the older instructional books (Sixguns by Keith, No Second Place Winner by Jordan, etc.) recommended that the tyro be able to achieve this level before moving on to more advanced skills like rapid fire, hip shooting, etc. Scores in the 80s generally require that all shots be kept within the six ring at a minimum, which measures a bit under 7.25".

To achieve Sharpshooter status, one must keep his/her shots inside the seven ring pretty consistently, with maybe the occasional six. The seven ring measures 5.25" and is "the black" in case anyone ever wondered what that term means.

Expert status generally requires eight ring accuracy; 3.75". (It's worth noting at this point that simply keeping all your shots within a certain ring does not automatically mean scores of a certain percentage. It's just been my experience that when shots tend to fall inside a particular ring, certain scores tend to result. Of course, it is theoretically possible to keep all shots inside the eight ring and still score an 80, but that's rare bordering upon unheard of.)

Master shooters generally need to hit the nine ring, with an occasional eight still possible. The nine ring is 2.5".

And High Masters got there by not shooting many nines. The ten ring is a touch under 1.5".

So that's that. Consistent two inch groups are very possible and Master level shooters do it every day. But those folks are generally not the ones showing up at THR to A) brag about it, or B) ask questions about how to field strip their new Glock .40.

HTH!

 

[wanderinwalker]

Well, nobody on the Internet keeps a pistol that won't shoot 2" at 25 yards or one that ever malfunctioned once.

Out on my firing range, I see people who are doing well to hit a B-27 from 7-15 yards, slow or fast. I notice that the most beat-up part of the target area is the wooden frame and NOT the center. I see that the riders the uprights stand in, while at ground level, recieve plenty of hits. I see people set up a 50-foot bullseye at 50-feet, place a magazine all over it and proceed to say, "That far away is murder anyway."

The actual accuracy of a pistol would surprise the majority of shooters, I think. I fired my Glock at a 16"x25" tombstone I had cut out last week, 5-shots from 25, 50, 75 and 100 YARDS. Out of 20, I only missed one, and I'm assuming it came at 100 because it felt good out to 75. But at 100 yards, the target was smaller than my front sight, and I "knew" I was out of range by that point. Oh, only 3 of those hits were below the center-line.

Still, I couldn't shoot 2" offhand groups at 25 yards with anything but a S&W and lots of luck! :banghead:

 

[loneviking]

It was either '86 or '87 when I qualified for my California Guard card/Reserve Level 3 at the range. Twenty five yard targets at 50ft., 30 rounds with 15 slow and 15 rapid fire/DA. A perfect score was 300 (all rounds in the ten ring) and 270 to qualify. I fired a 290 with an 'out of the box' Colt Peacekeeper that I still use. Anybody know what the qualifying routine is for the LEO's today? Back in those days, I knew SO's carrying .357's that would routinely setup at 50 yards and fill the 9 and 10 rings with holes.

 

[gcrookston]

3 / 3 shot groups at 100 yrds...

 

[jonmerritt]

This is why I believe in shooting from inside the barn, you are bound to hit something. Unless the window or barn door is left open.

 

[KegCommando]

I can easily get 2" groups at 25 yards.

The problem is, it is usually on someone elses target

 

[Realbigo]

I only get to the range about every other month these days, but I can atleast still keep 'em all in the 5 ring@ 7yds, and @least the 3ring at 25yds. I really miss having Uncle Sugar pay for my ammo.

 

[sm]

Original Post:
Okay, I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but I want to know if there are more people out there telling the truth or telling tales about their prowess target shooting with handguns.

No, I can really manage to screw up that bad and shoot that awful with not only my guns, but other folks handguns as well.

Sometimes the playing card, tin can,...whatever target, moves just as I squeeze trigger, but not always...it is me, not the gun, or the target.

 

[loneviking]

gcrookston---shooting handloads? Maybe out of a revolver with a 6" barrel or longer?

Here's something to think about, folks.

Could it be that the prevalence of auto-loaders is one of the problems? They don't have the long barrels and sight planes of the revolvers. Many of the auto-loader calibers are small rounds with small charges of powder--such as the 380, 9mm and the .40. A revolver can fire a much hotter charge pushing a bullet much faster with the ability to go farther than an autoloader can.

Or could it be expectations, based in part on the above? Do people just not expect to hit consistently at 25 yards, or 50 yards? Are folks just following the rest of the shooting crowd by setting up at 21 feet? Have they not taken their weapon out and tried one slow shot, then compared where they aimed and where they hit? Until they can hit consistently where they shoot? And then move the target farther downrange? Where did we get this idea that '100 yards is rifle range?'. A .357, 44 spcl, Colt 45, 44mag. will all easily hit accurately at this range and we have old timers like Elmer Keith who proved it. I'm not aware of anybody hitting at that range with a 9mm, but heck, certainly you could hit accurately at 25 yards.

Just something to think about...(donning my flame retardant suit)....

 

[tipoc]

On bad days, shooting from a Weaver stance with a Colt GM in .45, I can keep 16 of 20 rounds on paper with a NRA slow fire B16 target at 25 yards. On good days I can keep all 20 on paper and most inside the outer ring.

I figure it's middle of the road shooting. That's because I've seen good shooting and excellent shooting and know the difference between that and what I can do.

I've not shot a 2" group at 25 yards even from a rest. 2-3" I've done that. That's me and not the guns. Fella can flinch or pull a shot even from a rest.

I don't lie about my shooting, don't feel the need. I like it too much to dispoil it. Besides, if I were to say I'm hung like a bull no one here could ever prove otherwise. But I live in a populated area where several members of this forum and other forums, live. They'd know the difference.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

Just on what Loneviking said...

Many shooters, it seems, to come to believe that there is a Chinese Wall between hitting a target consistently at 25 yards or beyond and "combat shooting". Some seem to believe a shooter cannot be capable of both at the same time. That the skills are mutually exclusive somehow.

The emphasis these days is on "combat" or "defensive" shooting. Some folks seem to teach that no gunfight could possible call for a shot longer than 8 yards or so, so why put a student through the hardship of training for that.

A mistake of course.

tipoc

 

[.38 Special]

I do get a little steamed at the "Combat vs. accuracy" folks. There's no reason -- other than human nature, I suppose -- to diminish the accomplishments of one or the other.

Right now I'm in the throes of an accuracy obsession and am pretty impressed by the top players in that game. They do things that few "combat" gurus can even dream about.

But I've shot combat as well, and the best of those guys can do things that the top accuracy guys couldn't manage on their best days.

I will admit to one foible, though: I think the claim that "Combat shooting is 'practical'; accuracy shooting is just a game" is the height of foolishness. Almost no one is going to be involved in a gunfight, and out of those, almost none are going to be involved in the sort of running, rapid-fire, multiple target, three-magazine-change stages that typify the combat shooting games. "Practical" is what we all do on a regular basis: shoot at paper targets, tin cans, and the maybe occasional game animal. In that sense, the traditional bullseye games are far more "practical" than the "practical pistol" competitions!

 

[HB]

Time to revise my statement.....
I shot an older subcompact S&W DAO 9mm yesterday, at both 7 and 15 yards. It had a little more recoil than I expected, but was not punishing in the least. At 7 yards, I could manage about fist-sized group firing pretty slow. I was happy, this isn't this hard. This was my first time shooting a centerfire pistol.

We moved the target out to 15 yards and everything falls apart! I could barely hit the target, mostly because I was shooting low b/c of the DAO trigger. I then got out my buckmark and preceded to shoot a group the size of a baseball..... I have new found respect for shooting good groups with a subcompact DAO! 15 yards is not that far, but it is probably out of range of a fight....

HB

 

[aka108]

When I get through with a target it looks like it got buckshotted. Never been much good with a handgun, just enjoy trying.

 

[MrBorland]

there is a LOT of pure unmitigated bullpucky printed here at THR

I posted some group sizes earlier in this thread without posting pics (post 19). I don't generally keep my targets, much less take photos of them and post them on-line (this is my first image post), but since I offered the smackie, I thought I ought to do so now. I was testing different ammo against a standard (Federal 714), and threw the target in my range bag to record the results at home.




As indicated earlier, these groups were shot with a stock 4" S&W 617 DA revolver, 25 yards, standing unsupported, and in double action. About 3-5 seconds between shots. Stock sights. No optics, or aperture thingy on my glasses.

As others have indicated, 2-3" 25 yard groups are do-able, but it takes some dedication to practicing the fundamentals. Again, I don't claim to be able to shoot 2" or better groups consistently, but I feel it's achievable with more practice.

And combat vs accuracy? I don't get too wrapped up in that. I seriously considered bullseye, but I like shooting revolvers, and I'd rather not to have to buy bullseye pistols yet. In the interim, I started shooting local IDPA matches, and will keep my eyes open for any USPSA, ICORE, PPC and/or Distinguished Revolver matches in the area. I've started practicing a lot for IDPA, but I always manage to work in some accuracy work as well.

 

[tipoc]

Here's your thread here...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4958833#post4958833

If you like shooting at some point or the other, you appreciate the challenge of shooting for accuracy at distance. It's fun and it's a challenge. It improves ones skills. Good for hunting and many other things.

A shooter does not have to shoot bullseye to look for more accuracy, though the latter helps. It's a false dichotomy (an excuse really) to oppose "combat shooting" to accuracy (which is relative to the task anyways).

If you shoot for a few decades you get to appreciate the variety of challenges the sport provides.

tipoc

 

[.38 Special]

These are my best two targets since I started shooting bullseye.


This is a 50 foot slowfire target, and is an NRA "Expert" score. (Those slowfire targets are tough!)


This is a 50 foot timed target and is an NRA High Master score. (The timed targets are easiest for me, as for most folks.)

Should have put a ruler down for the pics, but both 10 shot groups are about 2" -- but 50 feet is less than 17 yards. I'll get to 2" at 25 yards, but it's going to take a lot of work.

 

[45Guy]

I'm not a great shot, and I freely admit that if asked. People who don't shoot in my family think I am, but they have never really seen what other shooters are capable of, so to them I guess a 10" group is good.

I do enjoy trying to enhance my skills though. It's also a good reason to pick up a .22 revolver I'm looking at, it's easier to enhance skills with a .22 pistol than it is with a .38 or 9mm.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

One thing I noticed is that my skill improved with the more live fire I did carefully. Looking back at my records, it appears for about the last decade I have averaged about 1000 rounds per month.

This has helped my shooting skill out a lot. Also just focusing on one thing per session and getting out more then twice a month helped a bunch.

4 250 round sessions is better then 2 500 rnder's or 1x1000 rnds.

 

[WhisperFan]

No You Can’t! You may say you can, but I doubt it.

I hope this isn't a re-post. When I read this, I thought of several people I know ......

By Mike Venturino

No You Can’t! You may say you can, but I doubt it.
In a recent conversation with a retired West Virginia State Policeman named J.J. Miller, he uttered one of the best pearls of wisdom I’ve ever heard. In fact I think it should be named the “Number One Natural Law of Shooting.”

What he said went something like this, “A man can be a pillar of the community, honest as the day is long; someone who never misses a payment and whose word is his bond. Then ask him how accurately his guns shoot or how well he can shoot and he becomes a pathological liar!”

I first became aware of this phenomenon about 25 years ago when I owned a small-town movie theater here in Montana. It was common for some of the local gun guys and hunters to come a bit early and visit with me before the movie got to running. During hunting season one year a young fellow came in to relate getting a nice mule deer buck that day. “Great,” I said, “What rifle and load did you use?” He replied the rifle was his 7mm Mauser. I’ve forgotten what make but he did say he fired factory loads. Then I asked, “How far?” And I was astonished when he said the shot had been offhand at the distance of at least 500 yards. “Wow! Where did you hold?” was my next question. Confidently he replied, “Right on the shoulder!” At that point I just tried to sell him some popcorn ......

It went on but I can't find it on the web. It was published in Guns Magazine in Jan 08. I found it fto be very funny.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Just have fun!

There are quite a few things that contribute to good shooting. Good ammo, good guns, and a good shooter. Do you have all of those things? Do you practice every day, twice a month, or twice a year?

Here is a recent target I shot with my Les Baer at 25 feet. I was just having fun with a good gun with my reloads.

You can call me a liar or you can enjoy the fact that I like to shoot, I practice often (2-3 times a month), and that it has paid off.

I have not shot out to 25 yards in a while but the last time I did was to qualify to join a gun club. The guy that ran the qualification asked me if I wanted to join the shooting team.

 

[evan price]

I typically shoot pistol at either 25 feet or 45 feet (the two standards at the ranges I go to).

At 25' with any typical pistol that I own- and none of them are anything more than stock with addition of grips or night sights or something- I can hold a 3" group of ten shots. Sometimes I get a little twitchy and get flyers. Sometimes I am under 2" but typically I can confidently say 3".

At 45' I can still hold them all in a 5" circle if I concentrate. Bigger groups are much more likely, and I figure as long as they are all in a standard target it's good enough for self-defense purposes.

I never claim to be more than an average shot, I'm good enough, but I'm no competitor.

However it seems like every time I go to the range the majority (not all) of the other shooters are lucky to hit the target at all no matter what the range. I've seen guys set their rifle targets at the pistol range 45' and then get a buckshot grouping of maybe 8" and then brag about how great their rifle is. O-rly?

 

[M2 Carbine]

I will say this. There seems to be a lot more folks who shoot really good online than who show up at the range. I never seem to meet folks who shoot the 2" groups at 25 yards, off hand, with their carry pistols or those who shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, iron sights.

I don't recall anyone shooting on my range that lived up to their bragging.
On the other hand some people that said they shoot OK, were very good.

No matter how good anyone says they can shoot, I tactfully make them shoot a few magazines at arms length (7 yards) before I'll allow them to shoot at any distance (15, 25, 50 yards).
I don't want some "shooting expert" putting rounds over my backstop.