Where would you NOT move to due to Firearm laws

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IL Gun Nazis said:
After doing a little research yes New Jersey does indeed have horrible gun laws. ON the other hand you live in Kentucky so you can pretty much just walk into the LGS, buy and be on your way. There are a few States that have worse laws then Illinois, we both agree on that. As for the IL FOID act, here is it's history with "Permission to reprint-republish granted".
Here's the link: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3390
It's interesting reading, albeit a little old but it does go into great history of the IL FOID act.
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Here is a little background regarding the "Nazi Gun Laws", 1968 GCA, the Firearms ID Card and subsequently Illinois....and the players involved.

Thomas Dodd was on the prosecution team at the Nuremberg Trials in Germany and he was the second ranking lawyer.

There are arguments that Thomas Dodd did speak fluent German.

Thomas Dodd is considered by many to be the architect of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Thomas Dodd had the infamous "Dodd Hearings" leading up to the 1968 GCA.

Thomas Dodd asked the Library of Congress for a copy of the Nazi Gun Laws AFTER most of the 1968 GCA was written up...but not yet law. Some he did this to cover his tracks and create a straw man that he wasn't aware of the Nazi Gun Laws until well after the 68 GCA was written up.

But there are credible allegations that Dodd DID know Nazi gun laws and allegations that he could read them in German. Remember Dodd was the second ranking lawyer. At this point in time, it is only natural that he would be aware of some Nazi laws, and quite possibly the Nazi Gun Laws as well.

Getting back to the Dodd hearings in the 1960's. Guess who participated in the Dodd hearings? Arthur J. Sills.

OK, now who is Arthur J. Sills and how is he relevant to this conversation?

Mr. Sills was the Attorney General for New Jersey. He was the one who was behind the 1966 "Sills Act" or the FID (Firearms ID Card) that was foisted on the good citizens of New Jersey.

According to research, Sills and Dodd held hearings leading up to the 1968 Gun Control Act. It would not be much of a stretch for Dodd to inform Mr. Sills on what he saw in Germany on the ID cards/licenses that the Nazis used , thus giving the Attorney General of NJ an idea for a gun control plan in that state.

So in 1966 the Firearms ID Card became law in New Jersey. Some two years before the 1968 Gun Control Act and some two years before Illinois adopted theirs.

Chances are good that Mayor Daley had talks with Attorney General Arthur J. Sills of NJ and Thomas Dodd of the Dodd hearings and that is where the idea of the FOID came from. Either that, or Daley just looked at New Jersey's Firearms ID Scheme and just adapted it for Illinois.

Reading here, it looks like Daley settled for registering gun owners instead of registering guns..(Daley wanted registration of firearms!)

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=49828

" IL, instead of registering guns, is registering gun owners. It sure beats registering all of our guns and renewing them. Count your blessings it could be worse.

That was Daddy Daley's original proposal, but everyone south of I80 was ready to start the 2nd great Chicago fire, so he settled for registering the owners instead of the guns."


If you want a long version of what lead to the 1968 GCA. This is a good start here. It covers political events and items which led to the 1968 Gun Control Act. It also covers Thomas Dodd and the allegations that he had foreknowledge of the so called Nazi gun laws, and possibly spoke fluent German.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/origins-gun-control-act-1968-warning-long-26881/


It appears that Illinois' FOID might have predated the 1968 Gun Control Act. If that was the case, Illinois should have done away with the FOID when the 1968 GCA became law. Likewise, New Jersey should have given up their FID (Firearm ID) Card after 68 GCA. Massachusetts came in with their version right at the beginning of 1970 after the 1968 GCA was already in place.


Unlike how in some states where carry permits bypass NICS. That doesn't seem to be the case for the ID Cards of Illinois and New Jersey ... because these do NOT bypass NICS. I would assume it is the same for Massachusetts too.


I still maintain that the idea for the 1968 FOID scheme in Illinois came from New Jersey's 1966 FID law. I hope to expand on that in a separate post sometime in the future. Sorry for the long post, but it is important to discuss how we got here and why we got here.
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Moved from NC (firearm friendly) to CA (draconian firearm laws) due to the firearm unfriendly vision. Had a few choice firearms that didn't fit the CA code and they currently reside with my MIL inNV which we visit monthly. Given a choice, I wouldn't move toCA.
 
I put NC and MI on my list as "probably not" for that reason...seeing it reminded me of MN I forgot about them...but IA and NE I did not know. IA I would not have expected.
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Meh, Michigan is pretty good on gun laws, doesn't require a permit for handgun if you have a CPL, and trust me, if you live in Michigan, you WANT a CPL. Always been a legal OC state, and since shall issue, (2001?) gun laws seem to get continually better. Just wish the state itself would turn red.
 
Stevie-Ray said:
Meh, Michigan is pretty good on gun laws, doesn't require a permit for handgun if you have a CPL, and trust me, if you live in Michigan, you WANT a CPL. Always been a legal OC state, and since shall issue, (2001?) gun laws seem to get continually better. Just wish the state itself would turn red.
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Yeah, but...handgun registration. And recently it was registration even though they wouldn't call it that (safety inspection my butt), but they actually actively upgraded it to full on official handgun registration at a time when the majority of states are going in the right direction
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Ames View Post
Rotating cylinder + ability to fire shot shells = "Street Sweeper". So there goes your Taurus Judge, S&W Governor, Rossi Circuit Judge, etc.. Maybe I'm wrong and it is a destructive device. Either way, felony for possession.
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Does this mean that a 22 LR revolver is illegal? Every revolver caliber I know of is capable of firing rat or snake shot but maybe those don't count.

I have to say that I am in a place where I can choose where I want to live. If I was searching jobs to make a living to make ends meet then I would go where I had to go. I live in the Southeast where most states are fairly gun friendly. Each one has it's own silly laws and local ordinances but, overall, they are gun friendly.

We spent the weekend at the farm and blew through some ammo. Suppressed AR with a slide stock, suppressed 9mm AR, suppressed 22 LR. I think I took 32 firearms with me and we got to introduce a 14 year old girl to firearms, 4 wheelers, Kubota tractors, Bad Boy Buggies, bonfires in the cold and all those other redneck things. She worked her way up to firing a 1911 as well as the AR's and is now asking if she can go squirrel hunting with us next weekend. She got the Buggy stuck and learned how to attach a tow rope to a tractor. This was in Alabama and she lives in GA.
Score one more for the good guys because she was scared of guns on Friday!
 
I think you can find idiosyncrasies in every state that make that state a "bad" place.

States like FL and TX have expensive CCL.

A lot of states have laws against machine guns, SBS, SBR, AOW, or DD. But even those that have laws against some of these items don't always have laws against all of them.

For reasons that escape me, people outside of IL harp on the IL FOID card. It is a minor nuisance as is the waiting period to take possession of a firearm. But, it costs a dollar a year, and can these days be acquired in a few weeks online. In the past it could take 90 days to get, but those days are gone. I think they assume that because IL and NJ both have FOID cards that both are equally onerous firearms wise, but IL is a lot more gun friendly than many people think.

People claim CA is gun friendly because you can shoot outdoors on public land. That may be true, but IL does not have the vast amount of public land that CA has that is mostly desert and thus unoccupied. It is just not as safe to shoot outdoors here. There are no rifle deer seasons here just because there just are not a lot of places it is safe to hunt with CF rifles. You can shoot on private land as long as it is outside of a municipality and is in a safe direction, and not real close to occupied buildings. There are also a few places where you can shoot on public land, but the amount of public land in IL is very limited.

I think there are a couple places inside of Chicago where bow hunting is allowed. But really, hunting and outdoor shooting is just not especially appropriate in densely populated urban areas, so I am not real offended by the lack of hunting or outdoor shooting in urban areas.

The bigger problem with Illinois is that the state is effectively bankrupt, even worse than CA.
 
ilbob said:
I think you can find idiosyncrasies in every state that make that state a "bad" place.
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Every state? Definitely not.

ilbob said:
States like FL and TX have expensive CCL.
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FL and TX have long been overrated by many people. No open carry and expensive licenses that require training.

ilbob said:
A lot of states have laws against machine guns, SBS, SBR, AOW, or DD. But even those that have laws against some of these items don't always have laws against all of them.
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But a lot do not.

ilbob said:
For reasons that escape me, people outside of IL harp on the IL FOID card. It is a minor nuisance as is the waiting period to take possession of a firearm. But, it costs a dollar a year, and can these days be acquired in a few weeks online. In the past it could take 90 days to get, but those days are gone. I think they assume that because IL and NJ both have FOID cards that both are equally onerous firearms wise, but IL is a lot more gun friendly than many people think.
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It's the sinister nature of actually registering people for exercising fundamental, constitutionally protected rights.

And then there's the people in a situation like my father in law. He's a gun guy with a FOID, but his wife and daughter aren't and don't have one. I wonder how many times he has had around of loose ammunition in the car when they took and thus a crime was committed. Having to license every person in your household or family...having to register people with the government...is just so wrong.

But no it isn't much of a hindrance to the avid gun owner/shooter.

It's not much different from a license to carry a gun, actually

ilbob said:
People claim CA is gun friendly because you can shoot outdoors on public land. That may be true, but IL does not have the vast amount of public land that CA has that is mostly desert and thus unoccupied. It is just not as safe to shoot outdoors here. There are no rifle deer seasons here just because there just are not a lot of places it is safe to hunt with CF rifles. You can shoot on private land as long as it is outside of a municipality and is in a safe direction, and not real close to occupied buildings. There are also a few places where you can shoot on public land, but the amount of public land in IL is very limited.

I think there are a couple places inside of Chicago where bow hunting is allowed. But really, hunting and outdoor shooting is just not especially appropriate in densely populated urban areas, so I am not real offended by the lack of hunting or outdoor shooting in urban areas.

The bigger problem with Illinois is that the state is effectively bankrupt, even worse than CA.
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Both states are largely run by large cities filled with Democrats and liberals. That's their problem lol.
 
jrdolall said:
Does this mean that a 22 LR revolver is illegal? Every revolver caliber I know of is capable of firing rat or snake shot but maybe those don't count.
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Don't expect logic, the people who write these laws don't know anything about guns. But no, revolvers in general are OK unless they can chamber a normal shotshell - at least as the law is interpreted today.




ilbob said:
For reasons that escape me, people outside of IL harp on the IL FOID card. It is a minor nuisance...
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People outside IL harp on it because it isn't just a minor nuisance for them. It may be for you, but it means I must drive around Illinois.

Out of state travelers visiting Illinois have been arrested and charged for not having a FOID card to allow them to posess their out-of-state guns.

Think about that.

You (from Illinois) can legally toss a dozen handguns, even handguns you cannot buy in California, in your trunk, drive to Disneyland (Anaheim, CA), park, enjoy the corporate experience, and drive back. No California laws were violated.

A Californian, on the other hand, cannot legally put a single shot H&R shotgun in their trunk and drive to Chicago, take the elevator up to the observation level of the Sears Tower, then get back in their car and go home without violating Illinois laws.

What? As a California resident they don't have a FOID, they are traveling to a destination in the state so FOPA isn't a protection, and they don't have a hunting license so according to Illinois they cannot possess their legally owned single shot shotgun. IL is apparently now accepting out of state CHLs provided the gun is registered in its home state, but most people don't have CHLs and most places don't register shotguns. If the hypothetical Californian in this scenario bought his shotgun in 2007, in Texas, and them moved to California, the shotgun would be perfectly legal and unregistered in California but not legal in Illinois because it is (again, perfectly legally) not registered.


ilbob said:
People claim CA is gun friendly because you can shoot outdoors on public land.
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No sane person claims CA is gun friendly, but it isn't just public land that is better than most outsiders think.

In California you (whether you are a legal resident or a visitor) can have a loaded gun in your hotel room, tent, rental house, or whatever else you consider your domicile for the night. No CHL needed. That is not true of Illinois, where lack of a FOID card means the out of state visitor is breaking the law.

In California you can buy ammo whether you live in the state or not..that's not true of Illinois where non-residents cannot buy ammo (no FOID).

California has castle doctrine and considers defending third parties against felonies to be valid use of lethal force.

I could go on, but it doesn't really matter. Both places are awful, and both should be avoided.

The difference between California and Illinois is that while both states are on the "don't move there" list, Illinois is on a shorter list - along with NJ and NY - of places an out of state visitor shouldn't even visit if they travel with a gun. Yeah, having a CHL in your home state may prevent prosecution, but it may not prevent arrest.
 
Five pages, about six states cropping up on everybody's lists, but sure a lot of bashing of some of the states in-between, for no real good reasons I can fathom.

Curiously, a few folks picking on some of our mid-Western states (Illinois, Michigan come to mind) that have come a long ways in the past twenty years or so ... No one who lives in these states should have to defend themselves from opinions from those who don't reside, or haven't been residents of those states.

What is important to some or a deal-breaker to others (e.g., supressors, full-auto, SBRs, FOID, expensive licenses, open-carry/no open-carry) just might not be as meaningful to someone else. Texas ain't all that great compared to many other states and sure hasn't been shall-issue as long as many other states as well -- but many states are simply at different stages of development as far as firearms laws goes. A little perspective goes a long way.
 
It has been quite a while since I came across the FOID Act (not the 1968 Gun Control Act) and the Nazi gun laws compared side by side. Until I can actually find where parts of them are word for word I really have no proof. It was at least 15 years ago when I came across it on dial up. I know it was a guy from Oak Brook and he showed how certain whole paragraphs were verbatim.
As for the register of individuals instead of guns, it's kind of moot. Daley was a bit before my time, I was just a kid but he was quite the control freak. You can ask 100 people that are older then me and you will get 100 different views of "The Machine" as they called it. Then his son comes into office and sells the parking meters and Skyway to Indiana to private companies.
Once I hold a FOID card, the ISP assumes that I am a gun owner. Like I said before it is usually not an issue in a traffic stop but there are some nervous Troopers. Most are actually very cool about the whole thing, a clear FOID and CCL means 99% of the time you are Johnny Honest Citizen.
I just said IL because I think the laws are comparably strict to say Indiana. There is a much more casual attitude when you are there compared to my home State. For instance even the person at Walmart that sells you ammo here has to have a valid FOID card. I find that to be extremely stupid.
I do find your research very interesting and would not move to New Jersey. While a bit off topic there are many States that I would not move to either because of strict gun laws or personal reasons. I loved San Diego but would not move to California because of the goofy gun laws. I also hated Atlantic City and couldn't wait to get home, it had nothing to do with their gun laws.
Actually right now Illinois biggest problem is like ilbob wrote. Our State is at a virtual stand still because of a peeing contest between The Governor and The Speaker of the House. The State is drowning in debt and those two wont budge. This has been going on for over a year. Right now FOID is the least bit of ILs problems.
 
To clarify wrote Ed Ames wrote, YES in the past you could be arrested in Chicago for having certain guns in your trunk. In IL as long as they were unloaded and inaccessible you were alright. Chicago had and still does have it's own laws. Cook County has it's own laws but the shotgun would be legal as long as you didn't bring it with you to the Skydeck at "The Willis Tower".
Now as for ammo? No, you can't buy ammo in IL without a FOID.
 
IdahoSkies said:
I may have an opportunity to change jobs in the near future. Part of the vetting process is me stated where I would or would not want to be posted.

Regarding U.S. States and territories, from a firearms related basis, where would you not move to. And why.

(I don't want to hear where you would move to, rather where you wold not move to).

Thanks.
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Go to online site and try to purchase high capacity handgun magazine. Do not move to any state they will not ship magazine to. Another useful tool to have is migration patterns of people moving from liberal blue states to other locations in USA. When enough of them move to firearm friendly state gun ownership rights will hit the waste basket.
 
PabloJ said:
Go to online site and try to purchase high capacity handgun magazine. Do not move to any state they will not ship magazine to. Another useful tool to have is migration patterns of people moving from liberal blue states to other locations in USA. When enough of them move to firearm friendly state gun ownership rights will hit the waste basket.
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Small distinction: You are referring to a standard capacity, or unrestricted capacity, magazine. ;)
 
Warp said:
You forgot Hawaii for sure. Some of the worst in the country. Seriously terrible
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A brief synopsis.. Hawaii and New Jersey are nearly identical in gun laws. There are other issues like one handgun a month, assault weapons bans and anti-gun mentality. I'll just focus on these.

Hawaii Owner licensing

Hawaii All guns are registered

Hawaii No carry permit issued to regular citizens

New Jersey No owner licensing

New Jersey But permit needed to buy a handgun or rifle

New Jersey Handguns are registered at the point of sale in NJ

New Jersey Rifles are not registered at the point of sale in NJ

New Jersey No carry permit issued to regular citizens.

New Jersey Moving into NJ from another state no registration required and no owner licensing required. It is highly suggested to obtain the Firearms ID card in order to buy ammo and firearms in NJ.

New Jersey Time it takes to get a permit. One month to six months with a very onerous and invasive process.

Maryland, Hawaii and New Jersey are essential NO issue carry permits for regular citizens.

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Warp said:
PA effectively registered handguns
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I live here and this is somewhat true. I honestly don't know what the State Troopers do w/ the form once they get it. It's supposed to be destroyed by law. All handguns are supposed to be transferred at a FFL. Most private sales don't go this route. It's up to the individual to decide if they will comply. This is really the only hiccup in our firearms laws. There is no purchase permits like in NC and other states. There are no training requirements for CCW permits. There are many other tax issues that would take precedent over the handgun issue.
 
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