Are rifles harder to master than a shotgun for HD?

"...a blog..." Friggin' things are the absolute worst thing about the Internet.

Click to expand...

Forums are a close second ETA: Make that Youtube Comments are the worst; forums are third, blogs second

The shot gun was waaay louder than the rifle.

Click to expand...

Perceived loudness is a highly nonlinear thing; we hear different frequencies stronger than others, and different frequencies propagate through the air better than others. The whole single-decibel rating thing really is a brutal over-simplification, but necessary to convey some sort of meaning to people. The threshold & rate at which hearing damage occurs is also nonlinear and hopelessly variable between people (case in point, my grandfather flew Dauntlesses & Hellcats off a carrier in WWII before earpro even existed, yet retained very good hearing for an old man through his 70's until passing; unlike practically all of his buddies)

That said, the real reason people usually think shotguns are quieter is because they tend to be much, much longer than rifles. So you get a kind of suppressor effect from the long barrel's volume, as well as the muzzle located farther from your ear. The lower pitch also isn't as immediately painful as small bores (is it the high or low pitch noises of a heavy filing cabinet drug across a concrete floor that bothers us? ).

For me, I hate the sound of 5.56 because it cuts through my anatomy too much; if I don't wear wrap-around glasses or am stupid enough to shoot with my lips parted (or am near a shooter) the blast wave goes right through my face or ear-tubes and rings my ears, even with plugs/muffs. More powerful 22s are worse especially when braked, but even 7mm bores don't seem to have the same effect; it's all in the frequencies being generated.

Well, if you are planning on surviving such situations, it isn't such a bad idea to plan on ways of retaining your pre-existing level of hearing (e.g., I keep a set of Peltors in my nightstand).

Click to expand...

That, *and* get a suppressor if it is possible/practical. You can't overestimate how your body reacts to sounds of this level ahead of time (for me, it was WAHP--!! and then dead silence + time distortion for a good dozen seconds, followed by mild dizziness --yeah, super great idea to use 'as powerful a weapon as you can shoot accurate' my ass), and it isn't exactly something a person would practice willingly (i.e. outside the military). Not even hunting rounds fired outdoors really compare, unless you shoot from a steel blind or something. The physiological impact to your ability to make followup shots is just as severe if not more so than recoil, in my limited experience.

It's nice to be able to retain your hearing after the encounter, but even better to avoid stun-grenading yourself in the opening salvo. I don't know why more people don't show more concern for this aspect when choosing their defensive options, maybe just an inability to comprehend how LOUD a gun is indoors without protection, or false-security from comfortably shooting outdoors with quality headgear? Maybe just a lot of guys with terrible hearing loss in these ranges already due to unprotected hunting/military or heavy machinery? All the more reason the HPA needs to be passed already, and end this silencer/NFA madness for good.

TCB

I missed it, who was freaking out?

barnbwt said:

It's nice to be able to retain your hearing after the encounter, but even better to avoid stun-grenading yourself in the opening salvo. I don't know why more people don't show more concern for this aspect when choosing their defensive options, maybe just an inability to comprehend how LOUD a gun is indoors without protection

Click to expand...

This can be very, very loud. Even just being on concrete and under a roof is an order of magnitude worse than out in the open on grass or dirt, and then adding walls (with no sound related material or treatment as some ranges have), and a very small area and small volume of air (bedrooms are much smaller generally than a range), and it's, well, very loud.

Also, that three letter word you used that starts with an a and is a synonym for your rear end, you should edit it out of your post, that can land you an infraction

That is easy to say that if you know how to do it or have someone to teach you. If you are the typical person that goes to the gun counter, buys the gun, at takes it home? No so much.

Click to expand...

Its actually very easy: 2 push out pins (no tools needed) on the AR15 and it comes apart. Then pull out the bolt carrier/charging handle. Clean like you would any firearm/long gun. You can teach this at the gun counter in about a minute.

JSH1 said:

That is easy to say that if you know how to do it or have someone to teach you. If you are the typical person that goes to the gun counter, buys the gun, at takes it home? No so much.

Click to expand...

...no...that is easy to say because this is 2016 and

-Guns come with manuals
-We have Google
-We have YouTube

Field stripping a pistol like a Glock/M&P/VP9/PPQ/etc etc etc, or field stripping an AR15 type rifle, is very easy and anybody can do it

justice06rr said:

Its actually very easy: 2 push out pins (no tools needed) on the AR15 and it comes apart. Then pull out the bolt carrier/charging handle. Clean like you would any firearm/long gun. You can teach this at the gun counter in about a minute.

Click to expand...

You could show a person how to field strip and reassemble their new gun but how many gun shops actually do this? (especially the big sporting goods stores)

With a little effort most people can learn to field strip and clean a semi-auto. However, many people don't take the time or put in the effort. Knowing the personality of the person is key when making a recommendation to a new gun owner.

12Pump said:

Learning how to disassemble and clean a firearm I buy is one of the first things I do. It's hard for me to be comfortable shooting and relying on a gun that I'm not familiar with inside and out, and is clean.

Click to expand...

It is the first thing I do was well. However, I know several people that have never cleaned their guns. They bought the gun, went to the range once or twice, and then put it in the closet, drawer, etc.

Just my opinion

But, if the person is just going to buy it and stick it in a drawer, then I say 38 revolver (not a snubby) something with a little weight and a 4-6 in barrel . Reliable, effective and easy to use and to get a basic cleaning done - point and pull the trigger, run a brush through the cylinder and barrel. Hopefully 5 or 6 shots is enough.

For shotgun, 20 gauge pump with #3 buckshot, less recoil than a 12, but still effective - IMO, and the wife can shoot it and get it back on target.

Wife also likes the 9mm PCC and is pretty good with it.

As far as the original question, mastering rifles or shotguns,again, IMO, if those are the only your only choices (no handguns), then I would look at a PCC, easy to use and master, faster to reload, higher capacity, less recoil than the shotguns.


d

JSH1 said:

It is the first thing I do was well. However, I know several people that have never cleaned their guns. They bought the gun, went to the range once or twice, and then put it in the closet, drawer, etc.

Click to expand...

Not recommended for several reasons, but also probably not so bad. Hopefully they come with some actual lube/oil from the factory, or some lube/oil is applied, but quality modern pistols should be okay with that anyway.

webrx said:

Just my opinion

But, if the person is just going to buy it and stick it in a drawer, then I say 38 revolver (not a snubby) something with a little weight and a 4-6 in barrel . Reliable, effective and easy to use and to get a basic cleaning done - point and pull the trigger, run a brush through the cylinder and barrel. Hopefully 5 or 6 shots is enough.

For shotgun, 20 gauge pump with #3 buckshot, less recoil than a 12, but still effective - IMO, and the wife can shoot it and get it back on target.

Wife also likes the 9mm PCC and is pretty good with it.

As far as the original question, mastering rifles or shotguns,again, IMO, if those are the only your only choices (no handguns), then I would look at a PCC, easy to use and master, faster to reload, higher capacity, less recoil than the shotguns.

d

Click to expand...

A full size DAO or DA/SA (don't cock it) 4" steel .357 magnum or .38spl +P revolver has long been an excellent choice for a "load it and leave it" firearm, particularly for the non enthusiast. No magazine/spring to worry about, long heavy trigger pull, no controls other than the trigger need operated to fire all of the rounds once loaded, easy to load/unload (administratively), can't limp wrist, won't be a one shot because you blocked the slide from reciprocating freely, not ammo sensitive (light loads won't cause failures)...and you can find these pretty much anywhere and everywhere you can find handguns.

Wouldn't argue with a good 20 gauge shotgun and buckshot. Fewer pellets, but the same pellets at basically the same velocity IIRC.

I don't see how a PCC is any easier to use and master than a carbine in an intermediate rifle cartridge (AR15 style being the go-to). Really the only advantage I can think of here is less ridiculous muzzle blast/flash and maybe it could be lighter

Warp said:

...what?

A monkey could field strip and re-assemble most of the popular semi auto handguns today...and an AR15 style rifle too.

I think most gun owners would have no problem at all doing necessary maintenance on the popular semi auto handguns (or an AR type rifle). I mean, it doesn't really get any easier than that.

Click to expand...

Monkey checking in.

Can confirm.

The YouTubbs is very useful.

To becoming proficient at long rifle ranges, or in multiple stances using different techniques to hit things at rifle ranges yes it takes longer to master a rifle.
To shoot at home defense ranges the rifle is easier.
To shoot a really light power rifle cartridge like a 5.56 AR, one of our most common rifles in America, takes far less of a learning curve than a shotgun.
A typical 7.5 pound shotgun gives somewhere around 30 pounds of recoil with many defense loads. A typical AR-15 gives less than 4 pounds of recoil.

People newer to firearms often find recoil and blast unnerving and learn slower with high recoiling firearms. Shotguns are high recoiling firearms, even light load recoil much more.
Also those comfortable with shotgun recoil will have no problem with most rifles, even most big magnums kick less that a shotgun slug. While someone merely comfortable with an AR-15 could find nearly 10x the recoil of a basic shotgun unnerving.

This is why those women many men can rarely get to go shooting can become quite good with an AR-15 and be confident quickly, but are still likely to be slow with a shotgun. It doesn't take much dedication to become proficient with an AR-15.
Add manually operated to that as well with a pump shotgun? There is also more forward weight on a typical tube fed defensive shotgun, which is harder for many women or smaller framed people to hold horizontally for extended periods. But a typical balanced AR-15 can be kept at the ready more comfortably.

Shotguns can be better in some situations, but an AR-15 with a light bullet at high velocity is decent for defense, easy to shoot, and the bullet breaks apart faster posing less risk far away after it hits some barriers. Making it even better than slugs or buckshot at posing risk for the least distance after going through building material.

Recommending a shotgun to new shooters is just because that is traditional, they are highly versatile, cheap, and good stoppers, and there is still an aversion to recommending black rifles to new shooters. A shotgun with slugs and even buckshot poses more risk to neighbors and is harder to use. Someone is unlikely to make use of the capacity of a typical AR-15 in most defense situations, and a handful of 5.56 in the neighborhood beats all the shotgun lead going through walls.

I think a lot of the examples really show a shotgun bias. 4" clays at 10yds to see which one is faster? Come on, the topic is HD. How about 8" plates at 5yds? I'll take an AR and RDS for that game any day.

I think the AR is easier to learn to operate for HD than a shotgun, but not a huge difference...at least for the on-board payload. Once the tube is dry, the shotgun becomes a Pro weapon as it also does if you want to maximize its versatility. Select slug drills, emergency reloads, and topping off the tube under life or death stress? Yeah, not for the newbies. That said, keeping it in context of HD...odds are overwhelming the shotgun, even if only 4 are in the tube, will solve the situation w/o needing a reload.

I also like that it is easy to mount an RDS and light to an AR...but that isn't about operation in a pure sense.

" The only time you're even close to 'just pointing' a shotgun is when you're shooting birds or other flying things like clay targets. "

Bunch of crap in the above statement. There is a lot of involved. Anyone who thinks shooting birds is point and shoot is sadly mistaken.

For HD a shotgun or a pistol or rifle depends as some have said on the particular situation. But practice is a key.

I don't see how a PCC is any easier to use and master than a carbine in an intermediate rifle cartridge (AR15 style being the go-to). Really the only advantage I can think of here is less ridiculous muzzle blast/flash and maybe it could be lighter

Click to expand...

I have an AR in 5.56, and can get to it quick if needed, so I am not knocking them, I was just mentioning another option and the PCC in 9mm is what my wife likes, virtually no recoil, easy to get on target, 9mm is cheap to shoot (<$10 for 50 around here) so not financially painful to practice with, probably still pass through a wall so still have to hit with you aim at, is it the best HD round, probably not, but it might be the best for someone who is recoil, noise or flash sensitive and it is obviously better than a stick. My wife put her first 5 rounds in a hand size group at 10 yards and while she shoots pistol she had not shot a rifle in 20 years prior.

Even the 20 gauge, which is lighter recoil than the 12, kicks more than an AR or PCC, so as said above for the newbie, may not be the ticket.

Also, if you are ok with hi-point they can be had for less than $300, if not, then they run about the same as an entry level AR so they are not overly expensive. As always, this is just my opinion, yours might me different.

D

You know how everyone says a 10/22 is the best platform for teaching a new-to-guns person how to shoot a semi-auto rifle? That's why a PCC is easier to learn to shoot with than a shotgun or full power rifle

My home defense is a semi auto full auto if the govt didn't have so much red tape involved.

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

barnbwt said:

You know how everyone says a 10/22 is the best platform for teaching a new-to-guns person how to shoot a semi-auto rifle? That's why a PCC is easier to learn to shoot with than a shotgun or full power rifle

Click to expand...

Well, now, a carbine chambered for an intermediate rifle round such as say 5.56 may not rightfully be called a "full power rifle", depending on who you ask.

The PCC I have experience with have as much felt recoil as an AR in 5.56 due to lighter weight and different operating system. So it would have to get into very specific firearm comparisons.

OK, there is some real wisdom in the statement: "The gun you have is better than any other gun". Namely, most of us will not carry a long gun with us in our daily activity. If you have to go get your long gun, many times the battle is already lost. So, first is to be armed and have that gun "attached" to your person while you are awake and close when you sleep. I certainly have nothing bad to say about having a pistol caliber carbine, or AR/AK or shotgun, however, not likely they will be in your hand when you need them the most.

The PCC I have experience with have as much felt recoil as an AR in 5.56 due to lighter weight and different operating system. So it would have to get into very specific firearm comparisons.

Click to expand...

Some of them are downright obnoxious with the heavy blowback bolts slamming into the rear of the receiver. I hated the recoil impulse of my CX4 storm, as well as that buttstock design ripping out facial hair. Which is why it no longer resides in my collection.

My Marlin Camp 45 is the only PCC I have at the moment, which I do like. I am building a 10mm AR upper, but it's gonna be gas operated, so won't have that detractor of typical blowback PCCs

MachIVshooter said:

Some of them are downright obnoxious with the heavy blowback bolts slamming into the rear of the receiver. I hated the recoil impulse of my CX4 storm, as well as that buttstock design ripping out facial hair. Which is why it no longer resides in my collection.

My Marlin Camp 45 is the only PCC I have at the moment, which I do like. I am building a 10mm AR upper, but it's gonna be gas operated, so won't have that detractor of typical blowback PCCs

Click to expand...

Exactly. I had a first gen KelTec Sub2k, recoil wasn't any better than an AR, inferior ballistics and ergonomics. I haven't fired a Storm but it seems like they would be similar.

Tcruse said:

OK, there is some real wisdom in the statement: "The gun you have is better than any other gun". Namely, most of us will not carry a long gun with us in our daily activity. If you have to go get your long gun, many times the battle is already lost. So, first is to be armed and have that gun "attached" to your person while you are awake and close when you sleep. I certainly have nothing bad to say about having a pistol caliber carbine, or AR/AK or shotgun, however, not likely they will be in your hand when you need them the most.

Click to expand...

That sounds to me, basically, like the difference between a carry gun...an EDC to be precise...and a home defense gun. Often not the same item.

The thread is about home defense so a long gun is very much in the running

I'll stick with the Remington 870 for HD. Not because it's the be all and end all of home defense (I'd contend there's no such thing) but because I've used that platform more than any other since I got one for my 11th birthday.

While I'd never assert that hunting is remotely similar to a real life defensive shooting, there is at least more stress involved than a leisurely day at the range. Having a ruffed grouse explode from the brush at my feet never failed to get my adrenaline up.

So, having more than 20 years of experience running the platform under at least some "stress" the choice for me is a no brainer.

That said, if someone had no experience with firearms and wanted to buy a firearm for home defense, I'm not sure I'd steer them toward a shotgun. I've found many new people are intimidated by them.

I would be in the pistol cal carbine camp for a new, non gun person, but there aren't that many options out there for those and as much as I love revolver caliber leverguns, I wouldn't recommend one for the uninitiated unless they were going to really get into the whole gun thing.

If reliable M1 carbines were available and affordable, maybe I'd look into something like that for a noob.

M1 Carbine is what my aunt has for HD. She's good with it, I wouldn't want to be on the other end.....

Jack44; why full auto? I doubt you will need to put down supressive fire, and a semi can put plenty of hurt downrange fast. ( and more accurately than FA)

Anyway, back to Jason_W's post; Nothing wrong with an 870. I have an Ithaca 37 for my HD gun, my serious business shotgun is my 870. (civil unrest, etc.)

entropy said:

M1 Carbine is what my aunt has for HD. She's good with it, I wouldn't want to be on the other end.....

Jack44; why full auto? I doubt you will need to put down supressive fire, and a semi can put plenty of hurt downrange fast. ( and more accurately than FA)

Anyway, back to Jason_W's post; Nothing wrong with an 870. I have an Ithaca 37 for my HD gun, my serious business shotgun is my 870. (civil unrest, etc.)

Click to expand...

Yeah...even if there was no legal difference between a single shot and full auto, my ideal home defense firearm wouldn't have full auto. It would have 3 round burst, though. I've fired a few full autos...staying on target can be difficult compared to semi and ammo goes fast.

You could show a person how to field strip and reassemble their new gun but how many gun shops actually do this? (especially the big sporting goods stores)

Click to expand...

Stores and LGS are not required to do anything other than sell the firearm. It would be nice if they did show new shooters how to handle/disassemble them.

Ultimately It really boils down to the firearm owner to learn and train with the weapon of their choice. Each platform (pistol/rifle/shotgun) has its own merits.

justice06rr said:

Stores and LGS are not required to do anything other than sell the firearm. It would be nice if they did show new shooters how to handle/disassemble them.

Ultimately It really boils down to the firearm owner to learn and train with the weapon of their choice. Each platform (pistol/rifle/shotgun) has its own merits.

Click to expand...

At many/most of the LGS I am aware of, all one would have to do, is ask.

Showing a buyer how to field strip their Glock would not be difficult or time consuming lol