Shotgun or Carbine?

[MovedWest]

I've gone over every aspect of every HD scenario I can think of in my world, and I've decided that my AR is best kept locked up in the safe. The muzzle flash, the noise, and the risk of penetrating exterior walls make it too much of a liability to me. Don't get me wrong, in battle scenarios or outside in general it's a great choice. But unless you sleep with hearing protection, consider other options.

I keep my bird gun loaded with 00 buck and a slug at the end, but it's too long to use for safely clearing the house. If I had a police magnum or something like it, that would be my choice, but I don't so it ain't.

For now I use my Ruger super blackhawk 44 mag loaded with hot, subsonic 44 specials. If it was good enough for Skeeter Skelton, it's good enough for me.

-MW

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Carbine

Disclaimer: I don't own a shotgun yet.

I've had to evaluate HD in three different dwellings since I started shooting with any regularity.

In the first place, I had an easy 60-foot unobstructed shot from my bedroom door to the front door, and the home layout included no stairs. Exterior walls were all brick. And if you had to "take it outside," the whole neighborhood was brick, and laid out in a rifle-friendly fashion, and there were many mature (large) trees. It was just about as ideal a carbine environment as I've seen.

I had my pick of carbines, ranging from a couple in 9mm to a lever gun in .30-30, with a 5.56 and .357 in between. The one with which I found myself most comfortable was the M1 Carbine, even though I also had a CX-4 available. The M1 Carbine fit me naturally, was easy to "sight and sling," while the CX-4 was oddly kinda ergonomically awkward.

Since then, having had more opportunity to shoot the CX-4, I believe that with a bit of training and practice, it would do nicely. It is, after all, a nice piece. It may be "ergonomic" but that doesn't imply "natural" in handling.

We moved a few years later, and I found myself assessing HD in a tri-level, where everything was cramped. Not good for a long gun at all, really. So the S&W 586 became the go-to HD thing, and the M1 Carbine took second. The neighborhood was distinctly different, and any outdoor work was going to require real care and accuracy, as the homes were all made of tissue paper, and organized so as to present Murphy's Maximum Risk.

We are now living in a place with a main floor and a finished basement, but with a whole lot of open space again. Neighborhood is a mix of brick and tissue paper (mostly paper), but the layout isn't too bad. Still, you'd wanna be very "rule four" about any shots taken outdoors.

In this environment, I once again lean toward the carbine. There's a 45-or-50-foot shot from the master bedroom to the front door. However, there are stairs. It is conceivable that someone who knew what he was looking for might believe he could get downstairs, back upstairs, and out the front door undetected. If that proved to be false (wife is light sleeper), I wouldn't head downstairs with a carbine (even though the basement is mostly open space). The Smith gets the nod for that.

Consequently, what stays closest mostest is the .357, while the carbine stays handy.

If for any reason I believed that any part of the action would take place outside, I'd grab the carbine.

The scenario would first have to have Hollywood approval, as I don't know what kind of event would get me to run outside in bathrobe + skivvies (even in a town as small as ours) chasin' after bad guys.

 

[Ranger30-06]

For HD and the like, I'll take a shotgun.

I voted carbine because when I go camping and quad riding, that's what I would prefer to take. I have a Mossberg 500 set up with a folding stock for camping because it's cheap, effective, and I can beat it up without losing any sleep.

If I was in a Katrina or total government meltdown situation, the game play completely changes there. It's carbine time and as much firepower I can haul along (which would be my Saiga .308, S&W 4046, and folding stocked Mossberg 500)

 

[M2 Carbine]

Just for interest.

I shot this a couple years ago.
The gun was a Remington 870 with a pistol grip and Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light.
All shots were from the hip, using the laser. All shots were shot fairly fast.

The chest shots were a #4 Buckshot and a 00 Buckshot. The distance was 17 yards.


The two holes in the BG's hip and the four holes in the small target at the bottom were slugs. The distance was 26 yards.


The accuracy when using slugs with the laser and firing fast actually surprised me.


Some time later, because the hostage target was the only one I had, I tried to hit the BG without hitting the hostage.
Same Rem 870 shotgun and using the laser.
One slug and one #4 Buckshot.
Distance 21 feet.

Aimed wide to miss the hostage but still got the BG.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

It would suck to get hit in the hand by the wad.

 

[M2 Carbine]

It would suck to get hit in the hand by the wad.

Yeah, she sued me.

 

[Weevil]

Shotgun.


One pull of the trigger with a load of 00 buckshot will put nine .30 cal holes into the bad guy.



It's gonna take nine pulls of the trigger to do that with a carbine.

 

[Bobson]

A shotgun is more practical.

I agree. I can definitely appreciate the versatility of a carbine or rifle, but to me, a shotgun is the best choice for HD. I don't use a "truck gun" but if I did, it would probably be a carbine. Depends on the situation, I guess.

 

[throdgrain]

Most semi-auto shotguns are recoil operated. When you hold them tight against your shoulder they rarely malfunction, but if your hold is compromised, there might not be enough recoil to cycle the action.

An AR, being gas operated, will cycle just fine even if you hold it with your fingertips.

The vast majority of semi auto shotguns are gas operated, not recoil operated.

 

[Zach S]

I've gone over every aspect of every HD scenario I can think of in my world, and I've decided that my AR is best kept locked up in the safe. The muzzle flash, the noise, and the risk of penetrating exterior walls make it too much of a liability to me.

Having fired both a shotgun and AR15 indoors without hearing protection*, the shotgun is much worse IMO. Its a long "boom" followed by a dialtone, and only a dialtone, for the rest of the day. The report of the AR is a short, "pop." Yes, I got the dialtone, but could hear and understand someone talking to me normally.

The worry of penetrating walls is a moot point IMO. If you live in a stick-built house, any suitable defense load is going to go through your wall if you miss. The odds of it penetrating the wall if you hit the BG are probably slim to none as most 12 gauge and 5.56 loads lose a lot of steam in a body. 12 gauge slugs might, as they have a lot of energy, and a lot of mass...

*My unscientific experiment was performed with permission in a single-wide about to be demolished, and the shots were fired a few days apart. Shotgun first. Loads were typical HD loads for me, Federal LE132 00 or H132 00 in my 590, and 75gr TAP in my AR.

We are comparing dragsters to Baja bugs...

Bad analogy IMO - its more like comparing a dirt bike to a quad. Either way you go, you have pros and cons.

 

[Loosedhorse]

You know, I once spent maybe a whole 30 seconds arguing with myself about this question.

Until I decided to stop and just have both handy. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

(With active ear muffs hanging on the shotgun.)

 

[Fiv3r]

It just totally depends on what you are needing the gun to do and how well you operate the firearm.

For me, in an arm twisting scenario, I would go with the Shotgun. Either my old 870P or Ithaca 37 would be devastating. The Ithaca especially simply because it holds 7 rounds in the tube to the 870's 4 and it's an older slamfire-style gun. You can throw a LOT of shot down range in a hurry if you aren't in a position to make careful shots. The shotgun also gives me a great deal of versatility. When we head to the cabin for the weekend, the Shotgun comes along with a 25 round box of mixed ammo ranging from birdshot for snakes, buck for bump in the night duty, and slugs in case the overly brave coyotes stir up some trouble.

That said, if I'm actually going out and about and NOT into big bear territory (I have never actually been anywhere that had anything bigger than average black bears), I take a carbine or rifle. I generally prefer the 336 in 30-30, but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a pistol cartridge carbine either be it lever or semi-auto. The ammo is lighter and easier to pack. It's much more durable to shock or crush damage. It's much more waterproof. It has an extended reach.

In short, if I'm hunkering, I'm going with the shotgun. If I'm camping, I prefer the rifle. If you made me choose ONLY one (God forbid) I'd have to go with the shotgun based on I'm much better with one of those than a rifle.

 

[hatt]

Also, from your own link...

''In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice..''

Funny you discounted him in the first post but now use him as an authority.

And the way that statement reads, it's a total hypothetical. You can never plan to have a single attacker.

 

[mavracer]

It just seems that shotguns with buckshot have even less range than your standard size service pistol, although it may be easier to hit with, especially during high stress situations.

Patterns some Federal buckshot with the flight control wads and get back to me, I don't think you'll feel the same way.

 

[Warp]

The Federal flight control stuff and the Hornady versa tite wad (or whatever its called, they licensed it from Federal IIRC?) both pattern very well. The Remington 8 pellet low recoil 00 does a pretty good job as well.

This is from 7 yards in my 18" improved cylinder 870. All those with one shot...seems like a pretty good defensive arm to me.

 

[hermannr]

Civilian SD situations do not happen beyond maybe 50 yards at most, and 5 to 10 feet more likely. Accuracy and ability to shoot 600 yards just do not make any difference in real life home defence, or self defence.

The sniper on the freeway overpass is not someone I am going to engage, not even with my varmint rifle.

I have a varmint rifle that is easily good for 600 yds, there is no way I would fire it inside my house. I would never hear again.

Light loaded shot works just fine, and I don't have to worry about the projectile leaving the house, and striking someone else's house 3 miles away.

 

[amd6547]

I have always preferred the carbine to the shotgun for HD.
Over the years, I have used several different carbines...lever gun in 44mag, a few different 9mm carbines, and what has been my favorite for the last few years, an M1 carbine from the CMP.
Lately, I have been shooting a Saiga 5.45 carbine, in unaltered form. I find I really like the cartridge, and I am beginning to see it as my HD longarm. It has been 100% reliable, accuracy out to 100yds has been great, and it is worth much less to me than my beloved M1 carbine...and the 5.45 does not penetrate like the 30carbine...It is much more likely to expand/blow up with the right ammo. Even the surplus FMJ load is known to turn sideways in soft targets...the Soviets replaced the round sold in this country for one with better penetration. Recoil with the Saiga-5.45 combination is like shooting a 22lr., and the Saiga is light and short.

While hearing damage is, of course real, when I see it raised as in issue, I think of my WWII vet father...he fired just about every small arm in the US and German arsenal without hearing protection, as well as the 37mm cannon on his M8 armored car, and undergoing both incoming and outgoing artillery. His hearing seemed fine till he passed away in his 80's

 

[KenW.]

I have each; but chose the shotgun. With my 12 ga mossy and OOO buck, there are 6- .36 cal lead balls flying downrange with each pull of the trigger. At self defense ranges (what you may find inside a home) one simply cannot argue with that.

At 12-15 yards they are still quite acurate and the spread is about the size of your face with simple buck loads.

 

[Nuclear]

When I first started considering defensive situations, I only owned a handgun, so the decision was easy. And the houses in my neighborhood were close together, multi story and wood framed construction, so a rifle would be a bad idea if you missed the target. Next place I lived was in hurricane country, and all the houses, while still close together, were single story CBS (concrete brick structures), so a carbine was a viable option. Now I'm in an area with multistory wood framed buildings again but they have at least some distance between them. So I'm going to go with an 18" gas operated shotgun (with an extended mag) so if a miss does exit the house, it will lose energy quickly enough to not threaten the neighbors.

I guess my point is, a shotgun will work in pretty much all defensive situations out to about 100 yards or so. If I'm engaging past that, I'll get out the carbine (which I really like shooting FWIW).

 

[jerkface11]

Why does everyone seem to assume that an AR carbine has to be .223?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Realistically, your own training and experience is a much more important factor than the firearm; but here is a fun thought - read Hitchman's Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon. Now limit the scenarios discussed to distances and situations around your house in which you might encounter an intruder. Hitchman's dream weapon with high probability of hit and incapacitation sure starts to sound a lot like a shotgun in that case.

One other thought, is the shotgun better than the carbine outside in urban or suburban areas? Everybody seems concerned with a miss with a rifle inside the house; but outside the house, a miss with a rifle is going to travel a lot further than a shotgun and still be potentially lethal.

 

[Creature]

As much as I love a shotgun for SD, if I must choose between a AR carbine and a standard pump shotgun RIGHT NOW because an unknown threat is beating down my door, I will have to choose the carbine. Simply because my carbine is significantly shorter than my shotgun. Which means it is easier to maneuver in the confined space of my home. The carbine also has significantly less recoil (thus faster follow on shots), has far greater ammo capacity, and is slightly easier to very shoot well. The carbine is MUCH quicker to reload than a shotgun. As an added bonus, the carbine has a far greater effective range.

 

[M2 Carbine]

One pull of the trigger with a load of 00 buckshot will put nine .30 cal holes into the bad guy.

Sellier & Bellot 12 ga 2 3/4 shells have 12 00 Buckshot. The #4 Buckshot shells have 27 balls.

The price is on a par or cheaper than the other 9 pellet brands.

The 3 inch S&B 12 ga have 15 00 Buckshot.


Cheaper Than Dirt, among other stores, has a Buck and Ball load that is impressive. A .65 diameter ball and six #1 Buckshot.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=AMM-823

Only thing is they kick like hell.

 

[BHP FAN]

Hatt, you make a good point...''no good plan ever survives first contact with the enemy...''

 

[Owen Sparks]

Even though a shotgun burns a lot more powder than a .223 round it operates at much lower pressure so the noise is not as likely to cause perminant damage to your hearing as the sharp crack of a rifle will. Fire an AR indoors and you will be functionally deff for a while.