Shotgun or Carbine?

[hatt]

I can't think of anything a shotgun does better than an AR. AR has, less recoil, more rounds, easier reloads, "devastating" terminal performance at 0 yards, devastating terminal performance at 300 yards, much more accurate, will penetrate soft armor, and easier to operate than the typical shotgun.

Sure a shotgun is going to get you by in most home defense cases but if you're going to keep a long gun handy the AR will handle all those cases and most other potential scenarios that could arise.

 

[BHP FAN]

''Sure a shotgun is going to get you by in most home defense cases but if you're going to keep a long gun handy the AR will handle all those cases and most other potential scenarios that could arise...''

...and penetrate the house or apartment next door far more efficiently...

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I can't think of anything a shotgun does better than an AR. AR has, less recoil, more rounds, easier reloads, "devastating" terminal performance at 0 yards, devastating terminal performance at 300 yards, much more accurate, will penetrate soft armor, and easier to operate than the typical shotgun.

Never seen a home invasion involving people 300 yards away.

 

[hatt]

''Sure a shotgun is going to get you by in most home defense cases but if you're going to keep a long gun handy the AR will handle all those cases and most other potential scenarios that could arise...''

...and penetrate the house or apartment next door far more efficiently...

Sorry, that's old wives tales.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

 

[DAP90]

Shotgun

I don’t own a carbine so I pretty much had to choose shotgun. Carbines are cool but I don’t really need one. Where I live the added range is as much a liability as a benefit.

If I lived on a ranch I’d get a carbine as a truck/ATV gun for coyotes.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Never seen a home invasion involving people 300 yards away.

The AR would work just fine at home invasion distance. It's also easier to maneuver, since the M4 size AR's are about 5 to 9 inches shorter than the HD size shotgun.

Then there's the AR's 30 rounds compared to the 8, or so, in the shotgun.


I have 4 loaded shotguns and 4 loaded M4 size ARs around the house. If needed, given the opportunity, I'd grab one of the ARs first.



Then there's the matter of practice. I would guess the average AR owner shoots his AR far more than the average shotgun shooter.
Face it, most of us AR/shotgun owners hardly ever practice with the shotgun. We may go through a thousand rounds of .223 in a year but seldom, if ever, shoot twenty five shotgun defense loads.


Yesterday I shot some #6, #4 Buckshot and Buck and Ball loads. I wouldn't doubt it will be six months before I shoot a shotgun again (and I have a backyard range).


Another big AR advantage is females, even small females, can handle the small AR's as well as a man.
Ever try to get a (small) female to practice with the HD shotgun? A round or two and she is done. (no offense ladies I don't like the shotgun kick either)
On the other hand, the ladies (I've taught) have a ball shooting the AR and can qiuckly get very good with it and will shoot it every chance they get.


.

 

[huntsman]

Shotgun; best option for a one gun situation but most gun guys will pick a rifle because a shotgun is too simple of a solution for a simple question and there’s no fun in owning 1 gun or 1 simple solution.

 

[chieftain]

Shotgun for inside, rifle/carbine for outside.

I prefer the rifle/carbine as there is nothing shotgun slugs can do that a rifle/carbine cannot do better. It is just that in the house I prefer buckshot. Just my preference.

Next to my bed is my double barrel 12ga Hammer gun loaded with #1 Buck. Next to that is my SCAR MK16s with the Aimpoint T1 on 24/7. My secondary weapon most often will be one of my 1911's on the night stand, or in my holster if dressed.

If I get shy about the double gun, there is the Benelli M4 that I compete with in one of my safes.

Good luck.

Fred

 

[PPS43]

I don't know what unusual positions you are talking about that a carbine will work and a shotgun won't.

Most semi-auto shotguns are recoil operated. When you hold them tight against your shoulder they rarely malfunction, but if your hold is compromised, there might not be enough recoil to cycle the action.

An AR, being gas operated, will cycle just fine even if you hold it with your fingertips.

 

[DAP90]

Then there's the matter of practice. I would guess the average AR owner shoots his AR far more than the average shotgun shooter.

That’s probably true if we’re talking about defense loads for the shotgun. I don’t shoot that many. Most people probably don’t. I do however shoot shotguns a lot. It may mostly be trap or game loads, but I do have a certain level of familiarity and confidence with a shotgun I don’t have with anything else.

From a practice standpoint, if we count trap and hunting as equal to stationary bench shooting of an AR, then I’d say your average shotgun enthusiast shoots more than your average AR shooter (just a guess, I have no idea). If you don’t think trap or bird hunting is valuable practice then I wouldn’t think bench shooting means that much either.

Sam1911 once had a great line about bad guys flying in long arcs over the field of combat when it came to the suitability of trap guns in combat. It made me laugh. Hunting, trap and 5-stand has made me a much better snap shot, better at moving targets and used to taking shots in less than ideal circumstances. That has to count for something.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The AR would work just fine at home invasion distance. It's also easier to maneuver, since the M4 size AR's are about 5 to 9 inches shorter than the HD size shotgun.

Then there's the AR's 30 rounds compared to the 8, or so, in the shotgun.


I have 4 loaded shotguns and 4 loaded M4 size ARs around the house. If needed, given the opportunity, I'd grab one of the ARs first.



Then there's the matter of practice. I would guess the average AR owner shoots his AR far more than the average shotgun shooter.
Face it, most of us AR/shotgun owners hardly ever practice with the shotgun. We may go through a thousand rounds of .223 in a year but seldom, if ever, shoot twenty five shotgun defense loads.


Yesterday I shot some #6, #4 Buckshot and Buck and Ball loads. I wouldn't doubt it will be six months before I shoot a shotgun again (and I have a backyard range).


Another big AR advantage is females, even small females, can handle the small AR's as well as a man.
Ever try to get a (small) female to practice with the HD shotgun? A round or two and she is done. (no offense ladies I don't like the shotgun kick either)
On the other hand, the ladies (I've taught) have a ball shooting the AR and can qiuckly get very good with it and will shoot it every chance they get.

Carbines certainly have their advantages just I prefer my shotgun. I actually don't own a carbine yet so of course my 1100 is my go to long gun. Whenever I go shooting, I pretty much always bring my 1100 and whenever I'm not shooting trap, I'm shooting mostly Slugs with some Buck mixed in. My mother's go to long gun is actually a 20 guage 870 and she is comfortable with it. The way my house is set up, a carbine vs shotgun length isn't a problem with maneuvering.

Never is one gun good enough to satisfy everyone's needs and desires so you have to pick which one works best for you and I pick my 1100.

Most semi-auto shotguns are recoil operated. When you hold them tight against your shoulder they rarely malfunction, but if your hold is compromised, there might not be enough recoil to cycle the action.

Most Shotguns are gas operated and to my knowledge, only Benelli and certain Beretta shotguns are recoil operated.

 

[M2 Carbine]

From a practice standpoint, if we count trap and hunting as equal to stationary bench shooting of an AR, then I’d say your average shotgun enthusiast shoots more than your average AR shooter (just a guess, I have no idea). If you don’t think trap or bird hunting is valuable practice then I wouldn’t think bench shooting means that much either.

I didn't say that right.
I meant the average "gun guy or gal", more so than people like you or I that shoot a whole lot.
As just a guess I'd say the average gun owner shoots his (HD) shotgun far less than he shoots his (HD) handguns or other long guns. Even if the SG is his primary HD go to gun he probably still doesn't practice with it very much.

Heck, it's been a couple years since friends have shot their SG's and they consider the SG to be a primary defense gun.


I'm not putting the shotgun down. They scare the heck out of me in the hands of someone that can use them.
That's why I have at least 4 loaded all the time.

 

[ZCORR Jay]

A shotgun is easily effective within the distances of 99.99% of justifiable defensive shots, IMO.

Couldn't have said that any better for a home defense situation. If it is defense from a two legged critter I would always go with the shotgun. It's what I practice with and I'm familiar with. That being said, I could fully understand the advantages of neutralizing a threat from a distance where the carbine would be the better choice. For distant threat neutralization I would stick solely to the four legged creatures.

 

[USAF_Vet]

As my only carbine is a Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R M-44 flame throwing beast, I'll utilize my shotgun, thank you. I don't want to kill the bad guy, and my neighbor the next county over whilst burning down my own house in the process. 12 gauge pump will work just fine.

 

[DAP90]

As just a guess I'd say the average gun owner shoots his (HD) shotgun far less than he shoots his (HD) handguns or other long guns. Even if the SG is his primary HD go to gun he probably still doesn't practice with it very much.

I’d agree with that. HD shotguns and loads aren’t much fun to practice with.

Heck, it's been a couple years since friends have shot their SG's and they consider the SG to be a primary defense gun.

Those guys should rethink their philosophy.

 

[CraigC]

For pure home defense in suburbia I think the shotgun is king. However, if you live outside of town and may have need to shoot beyond 15yds, a good carbine is probably better. I shoot my rifles a lot, A LOT. Shoguns, not so much. I don't consider breaking clays or popping quail with my little Merkel 28ga to be much practice for defending the home with an 870. When I have to grab a long arm in the middle of the night, it could be someone breaking into the house but more than likely it will be a raccoon in the henhouse or a coyote after the cows. Need a rifle for that. For which I'll choose a pistol cartridge carbine every time.

 

[BHP FAN]

Hatt, the thread you reference is talking about wound channels, not penetration through Sheetrock. Here, check this one out...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

the conclusion from actual testing...

''Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing...''

The carbine is a fine offensive weapon, that pretty much dominates the modern battlefield. For that role, I'd pick an M4 or AK any day, but for home defense, and things that go bump in the night, I'll grab the 12 ga Winchester. YMMV.

 

[hatt]

Hatt, the thread you reference is talking about wound channels, not penetration through Sheetrock. Here, check this one out...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

the conclusion from actual testing...
YMMV.

You didn't read the link. From the link.

Posted by DocGKR: Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons

Of course not every .223/5.56 load is going to penetrate less than every 12 gauge load. But if over penetration is a big concern you can certainly acquire some that do not penetrate too much in the building material department but still have very good performance on soft targets.

 

[BHP FAN]

I did read the link some random poster says '' Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets SEEM to offer a reduced risk..'' doesn't convince me. Sorry, but there it is. I'm more swayed by proof, by way of actual testing, than a posting on a website for....M4 fans. I am suspicious they might be biased in favor of their favorite weapons platform. And who could blame them? It does rule the battle field. But for home defense, I'm still going to reach for the shotgun.

 

[BHP FAN]

Also, from your own link...

''In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice..''

 

[BHP FAN]

Again, I'm not saying the carbine isn't a good weapon, I own a mini-14, and an SKS, and I think they, or an M4 would be my choice if I had a ranch, with extended range to protect, or maybe my .308 bolty, but none of those would be a better choice for me, in my situation, in reality land, now.

 

[Dave McCracken]

The simple answer is.....

There's no simple answer. Shotguns are incredibly effective defensive tools, when used by shotgunners and within their range limits. They really bite for use out nigh the horizon, though.

If you've run a couple cases through Ol' Trusty Rusty since St Crispin's Day,and enjoyed it, it's probably a good choice for you.

If not,and this applies to all defensive weaponry, practice a lot or rethink your strategies.

As for use, some say skeet or sporting clays is not good training for defense. It can be. If one can hit a 4.25" disc moving at 35-50 MPH on an unknown trajectory or even two such, bigger,slower stuff presents little trouble.

And the widest part of the CNS is about that wide,4".

Sundry weaponry is kept in Ready Status here, including shotguns. However, Wonderful Wife isn't a shotgunner, but does shoot handguns a little. So, the arsenal includes a numer of 38/357 revolvers. And, since I like covering as many bases as possible, there's a carbine also.

It's a HBAR( Hill Billy Assault Rifle), in 30-30 and says Winchester on it.

Call me a traditionalist.

The best advice I can offer here is to evaluate your needs and environment, pick your equipment and then practice until you know it like your tongue knows your teeth.

Dismounting from pulpit....

 

[mdauben]

A shotgun is easily effective within the distances of 99.99% of justifiable defensive shots, IMO.

This.

In a hypothetical EOTWAWKI event, the range of the carbine becomes a distinct advantage. In our current society, though, it's hard to conceive of a "self defence" scenario where taking accurate shots out to 200 yds wouldn't just result in the "defender" facing jail time.

 

[45_auto]

To see a pack of wild dogs or a bear or other dangerous critter coming your way, 100 yards away will seem like feet when their bearing down on you full kilter.

If you have a bear charging you from 100 yards and you're standing there holding a .223 carbine, you better hope it has a 40mm grenade launcher under it .....

 

[BHP FAN]

I guess for me, it boils down to this: they are completely different guns, and not made for the same purpose. We are comparing dragsters to Baja bugs.....or bayonets to Swiss Army knives.