Shotgun or Carbine?

[DM~]

It's fairly common for criminals to wear armor. You can google it and read the stories. And I'd venture to guess that better prepared and better armed criminals are also the ones more likely to be wearing armor.

That's what the "bottom" bbl. is for!



DM

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

It's fairly common for criminals to wear armor. You can google it and read the stories. And I'd venture to guess that better prepared and better armed criminals are also the ones more likely to be wearing armor.

If it was more common, we would be hearing about it more in the FiveseveN threads that pop up.

 

[Rexster]

The poll seems to assume this is a simple question that can have a simple answer.

The shotgun is nice to have at night, for close-range situations. A simple bead-sight shotgun is a very powerful, quite ambidextrous tool. While this describes many defensive situations, it does not describe all.

I have cleared houses and buildings, in the police context, too many times to even estimate, in over 27 years of wearing a big-city PD badge, mostly on night shift. While private citizens should not make a habit of clearing buildings alone, those who have family members in other rooms may well be compelled to do so. A light-weight carbine, with a minimal-legal barrel length, is much handier indoors and in other confined spaces. (I want a powerful handgun with me, regardless.)

I am quite OK with either carbine or shotgun, most of the time, in the kinds of defensive scenarios typical in my region. Because my badge means I should observe certain rules even off the clock, I am more likely to deploy a shotgun than a rifle, 24/7, at this point in my life. When I retire, life will be simpler with just carbines around, so I may or may not relegate the shotguns to the safe at that time.

I have typed MUCH lengthier responses to similar questions in the past.

 

[Firemedic56]

It's fairly common for criminals to wear armor. You can google it and read the stories. And I'd venture to guess that better prepared and better armed criminals are also the ones more likely to be wearing armor.

I did google it. Most of the results were not news stories of criminals running rampant with body armor but were post after post of people on various firearm type forums discussing how to deal with an armored threat.

I believe the issue may be a bit over-exaggerated.

If I lived in a large crime ridden city, if I was a LEO, if I felt particularly concerned of commandos storming my tiny ****ty house... maybe I would prepare more for armored assailants.

As it is, I think I will be fine. Plus, its fairly certain that the 12G will incapacitate anyone in a vest, might not kill..might not penetrate... but doubtful they will still be standing.

 

[amd6547]

At the local gun show, there is often a table full of new and used bullet resistant vests.
Usually, it is surrounded by a crowd of guys which look very thug like...

 

[chieftain]

It's fairly common for criminals to wear armor. You can google it and read the stories. And I'd venture to guess that better prepared and better armed criminals are also the ones more likely to be wearing armor.

No, the incident of criminals that wear body armor and attack folks on the street and commit home burglarys approaches never. Of course that could change in the future, of course, but short of gang attacks I really don't expect that to change much in the foreseeable future.

If you really believe that a large number of street criminals are wearing body armor why do any of you carry a handgun? It simply is not the case.

Go down to your local jail and count the number of times body armor is placed in property or evidence for that matter. At least in those jurisdictions like mine which allow private citizens to wear/use it.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Weevil]

Body armor is the best arguement for a carbine.


A shotgun can deliver a devastating blow with one shot but it won't go through good body armor.


Still I tend to agree the chances are slight that the average burglar is wearing body armor.


At this point in time I'll take the shotguns ability to lay a lotta lead on the target over a carbine's armor piercing abilities.


At least for now anyway, but hey as society does become better armed the crooks may up the ante and try armor.

But hey I've got the ol' AK or one of the SKS's if it comes to that.




And the wife wonders why I want all those guns!!!

 

[hatt]

It's funny to hear the blasting of the the idea a perp could be armored. It's much more likely than a criminal targeting you because you're open carrying, which can hardly be documented past one or two occurrences. And that's one of the cornerstones arguments against OC. Widely accepted.

I'm pretty sure perps and armor was one of the reasons LE is moving away from pistol caliber carbines. Guess that was knee jerk reaction.

 

[Firemedic56]

It's funny to hear the blasting of the the idea a perp could be armored. It's much more likely than a criminal targeting you because you're open carrying, which can hardly be documented past one or two occurrences. And that's one of the cornerstones arguments against OC. Widely accepted.

I'm pretty sure perps and armor was one of the reasons LE is moving away from pistol caliber carbines. Guess that was knee jerk reaction.

Law enforcement is different than home defense.

In the north Hollywood shoot out, probably the most widely used example of armored attackers, they knew the possibility of engaging LE and armored accordingly.

Should LE have the ability to take out armored opponents? Absolutely!

But that hardly compares to the HD needs of me in my nice, suburban, modest home.

And to reiterate, 12G will stop the threat. May not kill the threat but when the front of that vest touches the back of the vest...the person in the middle wont be having a good day.

 

[FMJMIKE]

I personally plan for worse case scenarios. I have been in a few SHTF situations. I can tell you they are damn scary and you will be wishing for all the firepower you can carry. It's fun to debate shotgun versus carbine. It's fun to debate over penetration, body armor on assailants and what the local experts have told you. I personally have a AK-47 for home defense. I want to be able to deliver superior firepower on target if I am forced into another SHTF situation. I also want a very reliable firearm. I'm saving the shotgun for four legged critters...............

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I like the carbine. I am less indiscriminate about my shots with the carbine (over the shotgun), and I can penetrate things that the bad guy can hide behind better. I am always aware of the whereabouts of occupants of MY house, and where the other houses are around me (I'm in the country), and would try to get a better shot if my round would be likely to endanger other houses, etc. I have AK's and M1 carbines usually nearby, but handguns are always present. After 20 years of law enforcement, I have a great respect for the shotgun, but I am more of a rifle guy.

 

[CZguy]

This discussion may have a lot to do with where you live.

In this area burglars usually operate signally, but occasionally in pairs. I have never heard of a burglar wearing body armor. Heck, around here they break into a place because they think no one is home.

I guess I would be switching to a carbine, in I lived in an area where the bad guys were emboldened to break into your home in squad strength, wearing armor.

 

[Autolycus]

I think it depends on the environment and the scenario. In a war zone I think I would rather have a carbine. However in a defensive situation in my home I would take the shotgun. All in all it depends on other factors as well.

 

[Autolycus]

Oh and I chose carbine because I am looking for a new rifle rather than another shotgun.

 

[x_wrench]

well, for DEFENSIVE purposes, i would take the shotgun. reasoning is as follows. 1) DEFENSE, is a game usually played at short distances, and usually with some element of surprise. 2)in a situation like that, you need something that will ensure a quick decisive blow to the opponent, whether it is human or not. 3) while a carbine can definitely be more accurate under situations where distance is concerned, a shotgun, with its spreading pattern lends itself very well to close quarters situations, where taking the time to aim can get you killed. 4) if the distance's are so close that the shot never has a chance to expand, think of it this way. what would give you a better result? 110grains of fmj, or an OUNCE of lead pellets! for OFFENSIVE purposes, i would take the carbine almost all of the time. when you have time to aim, and plan the attack, one well placed shot (as long as it has enough power and proper bullet selection for the job) will almost always take out your target. shotgun = the original "spray and pray"!

 

[FMJMIKE]

And if you have planned for a short range encounter against one or two assailants.................and it turns into something much worse !!!!!! **** happens..............I prepare for the worst case. It does happen.........

 

[CZguy]

And if you have planned for a short range encounter against one or two assailants.................and it turns into something much worse !!!!!! **** happens..............I prepare for the worst case. It does happen.........

I'm curious, where do you live that something much worse is even a possibility?

 

[amd6547]

At close range, a shotgun still needs to be aimed.

 

[Firemedic56]

And if you have planned for a short range encounter against one or two assailants.................and it turns into something much worse !!!!!! **** happens..............I prepare for the worst case. It does happen.........

Surprisingly, that's what slugs are for....

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I just have slugs loaded in mine, its basically a big bore carbine if you think about it.

 

[Warp]

Not really. Follow up shots will be considerably slower, capacity is considerably less, range probably considerably less as well.

Not that a 12 gauge slug gun isn't likely to stop whoever you shoot with it.

 

[Weevil]

Not really. Follow up shots will be considerably slower, capacity is considerably less, range probably considerably less as well.

Not that a 12 gauge slug gun isn't likely to stop whoever you shoot with it.

Yeah if you get a decent hit on target with a 12ga slug, follow-ups, capacity, and range, aren't going to be a big concern.

 

[amd6547]

"IF" being the operative term.

 

[wild cat mccane]

The paranoia in this thread is palpable.

 

[Weevil]

"IF" being the operative term.

Well a carbine won't be any more effective "IF" you miss.



The weapon is only as effective as the operator makes it.