10mm or 45 acp for self defense

I voted 45 Automatic due to the slight edge of reduced recoil over the 10MM. If I were to carry a 10MM it would be at the middle the charge weight and closer to a 40 S&W. So why bother with the .40 caliber bullet when a .451 bullet of 230 grains is better for self defense. You can't argue with the superior energy of the 10MM over the 45 Automatic. I have one (10 MM) and love to shoot it but I get better follow up shots with my 45. So for me it is an issue of controllability and hits on target over ultimate energy comparison of the two rounds.

Decoy80 said:

Being a novice as far as 40 SW and 10 mm go what are the best attributes of those cartridges and drawbacks if any. 9mm im in, 45 acp ive been shooting since 1980 espically as the ammo was free and the public was paying a farm kid to shoot. I had the privilige to carry the 1911 and the m-3 grease gun as my personal weapons. The 1911 was heavy to carry and the m-3 ran out of ammo too quick. I currently carry a XDS daily. please enlighten an old country boy, hell im not too old to learn.

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Well, I have only shot 10 mm a few times. I have shot the other calibers for years.
The case and projectile diameter of .40 S&W and 10 mm are the same. The .142" longer case of the 10 mm allows a greater powder charge, and the maximum case pressure per SAAMI specs is greater for the 10 mm: 37,500 psi as opposed to 35,000 psi. So the 10 mm can push the same projectile with more velocity and muzzle energy, which of course means greater total recoil. The longer cartridge overall length (COAL) of the 10 mm also requires a pistol with a larger grip in the anterior-posterior direction.

The FBI tried 180 grain 10 mm after the Miami Dade County shootout in 1986 and found that many of their agents could not handle the recoil well. They tried a reduced velocity load but requested Smith and Wesson and Winchester to develop a new load with a shorter COAL that duplicated the ballistics of their reduced velocity 10 mm load and that is how .40 S&W originated.

I am sure that many people can shoot 10 mm pretty well but it is a stout load for many to handle. The terminal ballistics of .40 S&W is pretty impressive when it comes to self-defense against human predators. Ten millimeter ammo is significantly more expensive than .40 S&W, which seems to be coming down in price recently.

Personally, for self-defense I prefer 9 mm Luger in subcompact or compact pistols, .40 S&W in mid-sized pistols, and .45 ACP in full-sized pistols, as a general rule.

Thanks for explaining that. I understand the advantage in using the 10mm. A set of dies, colllection of more brass and the ammo problem would be a moot point. I have been noticing that when 45 acp and 9mm components are sold out 40 caliber is still available most times. For that reason alone if I come across a deal on one its been in mind. I live in rural America and the range starts at my door. I would like to shoot a 40 before making a purchase.

Glock 29 baby! Oh wait Glock 30! Hmmmm...which one, which one? LOL

I would carry either one with appropriate defense loads.

M

Robert101 said:

I voted 45 Automatic due to the slight edge of reduced recoil over the 10MM. If I were to carry a 10MM it would be at the middle the charge weight and closer to a 40 S&W. So why bother with the .40 caliber bullet when a .451 bullet of 230 grains is better for self defense. You can't argue with the superior energy of the 10MM over the 45 Automatic. I have one (10 MM) and love to shoot it but I get better follow up shots with my 45. So for me it is an issue of controllability and hits on target over ultimate energy comparison of the two rounds.

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Pretty much my thought process. I also like to choose a defensive round that is widely available/used in Law Enforcement (no handloads) so I can have the "I just grabbed something off the shelf, or used what the local LEO's" defense. There aren't any commonly available 10mm off the shelf loads that really do the round justice (not counting boutique ammo). Might as well just carry a .40 at that point. I reload good stuff, but that's not for EDC.

Finally I really shoot .45 ACP better in both Glocks and 1911's, so I'm more confident in my shooting at speed.

Still love my 10mm though, great woods gun and so much fun to shoot.

I don't know for sure. I would think the .45 ACP would be easier on the eyes and ears in a self defense situation, but maybe that won't matter much. I haven't shot either one without hearing protection. I've had an EMT friend agree with Brownings assessment that the actual wounds he's seen in people from the .45 were among the worst.

I shot a chipmunk with a 10mm, and was able to stop the threat before he became too aggressive. I think it would work on a human also.

jjones45 said:

I've noticed some 10mm handguns seem to be more prone to malfunctions from limp wristing and such.

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Maybe a certain brand pistol Is having an issue here or there. Maybe some guy decided to put a 24lb spring on is gun and shoot light loads but the majority of the major 10mm pistol makers run pretty much 100. There's often more to the story than what's rumored.

For the idea that a 10mm is more prone to limp wristing to be any where near true it would have apply to a whole group of 10mm makers or the10mm cartridge itself being the issue. Since I have first hand with Glock, S&W 1006, and Witness pistols running flawless as well as many other people who own them I can't attribute those three makers to the idea that its the design as they all are different. Also since they all run so good the cartridge can't be inherently prone to causing limp wristing because it runs so good in most 10mm's and 2 of those pistols I've run only see reloads of varying power from bunny farts to full power 155gr 1550fps loads.

The truth is limp wristing has been more common in smaller caliber loads and even more common in light weight pistols with springs on the heavy end and someone not gripping the pistol hard enough.

Decoy80 said:

Being a novice as far as 40 SW and 10 mm go what are the best attributes of those cartridges and drawbacks if any. 9mm im in, 45 acp ive been shooting since 1980 espically as the ammo was free and the public was paying a farm kid to shoot. I had the privilige to carry the 1911 and the m-3 grease gun as my personal weapons. The 1911 was heavy to carry and the m-3 ran out of ammo too quick. I currently carry a XDS daily. please enlighten an old country boy, hell im not too old to learn.

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Shorten it up a bit by saying a 10mm is more like a .357 power in a Semi-auto pistol. 40 cal is the shortened and slower version made after the 10mm because the FBI felt they needed more power than a .38 or 9mm after the famous 1986 Miami FBI shoot out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
40 cal recoil closer to a 45 but more than a 9mm. IF you want a hog killer that 10mm is your buddy more so than the other standard calibers but for 2 legged critters any of the 9mm, 40, 45's will do as good as the next.

Now if you carried a grease gun, you got to do something a lot of people never have. That M-3 is not something most people even see first hand much less hold or fire. Truth is I may have passed a little information forward but as far as learning you anything I don't think I can.

both work fine.

10mm factory ammo is loaded on the weaker side typically. feels just like 40 short and weak to me when shooting. other than 1911s in 10mm, most carry more ammo per mag and that is an advantage, even if ya dont need it.

i like them both equal and for different reasons.

Wreck-n-Crew said:

Maybe a certain brand pistol Is having an issue here or there. Maybe some guy decided to put a 24lb spring on is gun and shoot light loads but the majority of the major 10mm pistol makers run pretty much 100. There's often more to the story than what's rumored.

For the idea that a 10mm is more prone to limp wristing to be any where near true it would have apply to a whole group of 10mm makers or the10mm cartridge itself being the issue. Since I have first hand with Glock, S&W 1006, and Witness pistols running flawless as well as many other people who own them I can't attribute those three makers to the idea that its the design as they all are different. Also since they all run so good the cartridge can't be inherently prone to causing limp wristing because it runs so good in most 10mm's and 2 of those pistols I've run only see reloads of varying power from bunny farts to full power 155gr 1550fps loads.

The truth is limp wristing has been more common in smaller caliber loads and even more common in light weight pistols with springs on the heavy end and someone not gripping the pistol hard enough.

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Yes, that's why I said "some", and lightweight guns are most of that some. Sub compact or compact 10mm's are a bit pointless in my opinion and only take away from the benefits of the 10mm. Give me a delta elite, p220, or one of the tangfolio pistols in 10mm and I'm a happy camper. Give me a g29 and I'm not so much

CDW4ME said:

Gun people (doctors) might note or care about the difference.
Yet, some people post (in other threads) about how a surgeon can't tell the difference. Maybe the worst don't go to a surgeon.
I can't picture a doctor in emergency surgery taking time to discern (appreciate) a 20% difference, or as if they train for it in medical school...
"Students, this guy was shot with a 45 HST, whereas this one was shot with a 380 XTP, not the difference in permanent damage".

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Other than really broad strokes I don't know enough about the minutiae of what physicians learn about the different calibers and projectiles to paint anyone a picture. However in EMT school and then later in Medic school both times there were sub-sections on gunshot wounds that basically stated and then showed with both diagrams as well as photos the gradually increasing damage as the caliber increased and changed from FMJ to JHP. So I would imagine they receive quite a bit more training than we do and we still received some on calibers and the different projectile types.

That's why they generally asked us to find out what caliber it was to note in our report if at all possible without disturbing evidence that the police might need. That way by caliber they could tell what the possible grain weight was so they'd know if they got it all during surgery. Now there's all kinds of medical imagery that wasn't quite as available before the turn of the century, but bullets do occasionally get into blood vessels sometimes and travel to distant parts in the body.

At any rate JHP .45's aren't anything nice. Often as not gangsters and criminals will use whatever they can get their hands on, but they often read the same gun magazines and do the same research online that every one of us has done.

Buy both. Buy lots of your proposed self-defense loads. Shoot them both in some quality training classes and competitions. See what works for you in terms of accuracy and speed. Just spouting stopping power isn't enough.

Dog Soldier said:

I would buy a 10MM but I have an LAR Grizz 1911. The .45 Win Mag throws 8 rounds of 300 grs bullets at 1,300 fps.

Picture with .45 Win Mag and .45 ACP

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300 grs at 1,300 fps ? Holy crap! What's the recoil like from a 1911 style pistol throwing a 300 grn bullet that fast? I'll bet my 69 year old tendonitis elbows would cuss me for a week after a magazine full of those things. It would probably be worth it though. That is, I didn't get that tendonitis in my 69 year old elbows by never using them.

I have shot both rounds for years, and my feeling is this - if you can only have one handgun, between a .45 or 10mm (taking ammo availability out of the question for this thread) for pure "self-defense", i.e. 2 and 4 legged critters, I would go with a 10mm - no question. But, for stopping a human, I like the idea of a 230 grain .45 dumping all its energy into the target. A real 10mm can be a bit too much, IMHO (over penetration).

Given the option,a .45 for bad guy, .44/.454 (or a rifle better yet) for the hungry critter on four legs. The 10mm is a compromise, and it's not a bad one either....

!0mm HP ammo generally stays below the max 18" gelatin test. Beyond that any HP failing to expand essentially becomes an FMJ. Plus a .357 is on the same power level with a 10mm and they have a smaller diameter.

CDW4ME said:

Gun people (doctors) might note or care about the difference.
Yet, some people post (in other threads) about how a surgeon can't tell the difference. Maybe the worst don't go to a surgeon.
I can't picture a doctor in emergency surgery taking time to discern (appreciate) a 20% difference, or as if they train for it in medical school...
"Students, this guy was shot with a 45 HST, whereas this one was shot with a 380 XTP, not the difference in permanent damage".

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I used to go to church with a surgeon that says he always tried to discern what caliber the bullet was. He liked to note it for his own purposes. However, I'd say it is a pretty slim chance that he runs into many patients with a 10mm in them, or how he would know it wasn't a .40 S&W when he does. The EMT would follow up with police to see if they determined the cartridge - presumably through recovery of either the weapon used or the empty brass. Edit to add - I clearly understand that this is anecdotal and is not really useful in determining which is more effective, just observing that I know an EMT that had observations similar to Browning's.

CDW4ME said:

Does a 135 gr. @ 1,568 fps (737# KE) qualify as "a real 10mm"?

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I don't know.....seems more like a 9x25 Dillon type load to me (I know it's .400 and not .356). I think of 10mm as being 160 - 200 gr, but that's just me. Underwood also has a 120 gr .45 ACP clocking in at 1420 fps, but I don't consider that a 'normal' load.
As always, just my .02

CDW4ME said:

Does a 135 gr. @ 1,568 fps (737# KE) qualify as "a real 10mm"?

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They have 135gr bullets.

I have a load that pushes a 155gr 1550fps over my chronograph and the load is not over pressure and within load data. (either lyman 49th or Alliant data). Shot out of a 5" Elite Match. To me that's more like a 10mm load.