The most famous use of an AR15 for Self-Defense

WrongHanded said:

As the protests (which yes became riots) were spurred by an issue (whether real or imaginary) with law enforcement, having the police do the work puts the enemy in front of people who otherwise would remain peaceful.

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You didn't answer my question.

Once the National Guard gets them, WHERE do they go? FEMA camp? GULAG? A big hole in the ground at Katyn?

They go into POLICE custody. If rioters get mad because other rioters get arrested by police, why would they NOT get angry merely because you interpose an intermediate step before police custody?

And again, how does looting a Target or burning a fast food restaurant address police criminality? Somebody who's actually paying attention would logically conclude that this isn't about cops committing crimes (which they in fact do), but about stealing, destroying property and hurting people whom you perceive as political enemies. That's not what "protestors" do. Maybe that's why the perpetrators aren't bashful about declaring themselves "anti-capitalist revolutionaries".

WrongHanded said:

Did he not have insurance?

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So, if you have insurance, you have to let somebody steal from and destroy your business or home?

What if the insurance doesn't cover all or even a majority of your losses?

If you have death and dismemberment insurance, do you have to let somebody attack you with a chainsaw rather than shooting them?

Deanimator said:

So, if you have insurance, you have to let somebody steal from and destroy your business or home?

What if the insurance doesn't cover all or even a majority of your losses?

If you have death and dismemberment insurance, do you have to let somebody attack you with a chainsaw rather than shooting them?

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I'd certainly let a mob vandalize someone else's business before I put MY life on the line to protect it. And I'd certainly consider the same for my own business. There's no point my business being intact if I'm dead. I'd rather continue living thanks.

If the insurance doesn't cover it, someone should have considered getting better insurance to protect their investment. Or maybe get other property owners together and sue the city.

My home is a different matter, but that's not the focus of discussion.

Deanimator said:

You didn't answer my question.

Once the National Guard gets them, WHERE do they go? FEMA camp? GULAG? A big hole in the ground at Katyn?

They go into POLICE custody. If rioters get mad because other rioters get arrested by police, why would they NOT get angry merely because you interpose an intermediate step before police custody?

And again, how does looting a Target or burning a fast food restaurant address police criminality? Somebody who's actually paying attention would logically conclude that this isn't about cops committing crimes (which they in fact do), but about stealing, destroying property and hurting people whom you perceive as political enemies. That's not what "protestors" do. Maybe that's why the perpetrators aren't bashful about declaring themselves "anti-capitalist revolutionaries".

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Oh I'm sorry. Should I answer each one of of your questions individually? And tell you exactly what I think the local and State government should have done in a point -by-point fashion?

So they go into police custody. Totally removed from the scene and the emotional turmoil. The get an opportunity to calm down , reflect on the severity of their circumstances and actions, and then get processed and charged to the full extent of the law.

Look, I know you don't like my opinion on this, but you're not going to change it. I already disengaged from discussion with you once on this thread. You seem to be determined to re-engage and get my to see things from your point of view. I already have done, and I disagree with it.

WrongHanded said:

So they go into police custody. Totally removed from the scene and the emotional turmoil.

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And others wouldn't find out they were in police custody...HOW?

So then "ten years without the right to correspond"?

What happens when people start noticing that these people never turn up again?

WrongHanded said:

I'd certainly let a mob vandalize someone else's business before I put MY life on the line to protect it. And I'd certainly consider the same for my own business. There's no point my business being intact if I'm dead. I'd rather continue living thanks.

If the insurance doesn't cover it, someone should have considered getting better insurance to protect their investment. Or maybe get other property owners together and sue the city.

My home is a different matter, but that's not the focus of discussion.

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You have a lot of financial and security advice for people without contributing anything to their expenses or safety.

I'm sure lots of businessmen would be happy to accept financial assistance from you to get "better insurance".

I'm pretty sure that Elon Musk and Jack Dorsey didn't own too many small businesses in Kenosha.

WrongHanded said:

As the protests (which yes became riots) were spurred by an issue (whether real or imaginary) with law enforcement, having the police do the work puts the enemy in front of people who otherwise would remain peaceful. I know it's tempting to assume that every single person on the street were directly involved in the riots, but that's rarely the case. However, putting their "enemy" directly in front of them in opposition, is far more likely to push the actual protesters over the edge and into violence. Which would be their own fault, but still would result in more injuries and potentially more deaths (police officers may also have become victims at this point, as we saw on Jan 6th). All that could easily lead to the increasing likelihood of more people traveling to the area to do the same thing the next night. Etc.

That's why I think the National Guard should have handled it. And all the other protests turned to riots. Because they're not the police. Either that makes sense, or it doesn't.

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Explain to us, please, why that isn't happening in Houston. Where the protestors are protesting and the cops are there to do their jobs.

bdickens said:

Explain to us, please, why that isn't happening in Houston. Where the protestors are protesting and the cops are there to do their jobs.

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Can't speak to anything happening in Houston without researching it.

@Deanimator you asked questions, and I answered them. If you don't like the answers, that's really not my problem. Once again, I'm disengaging from discussion with you, because I find it pointless and circular.

WrongHanded said:

I'd certainly let a mob vandalize someone else's business before I put MY life on the line to protect it. And I'd certainly consider the same for my own business.

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Out of curiosity, how much first hand experience do you have of putting your life on the line and assessing situations where that might actually take place? I most certainly wouldn't chicken out on standing up against destruction of property, be it mine or someone else's, without knowing and not just imagining that my life was on the line.

WrongHanded said:

I'm not saying he's a BAD man. But a little more forethought to the possible outcome of going to oppose rioters may have prevented all this for him. Was the owner of the business there to protect his business himself, or did he just send kids to do it for him? Did he not have insurance? Was he really okay with having others put their lives at risk for HIS business?

I understand it's not a pleasant situation for a business owner to find themselves in, but I don't find the circumstances dissimilar to going into a hurricane to protect a business from high winds and storm surge. Some things are powerful enough, it's better to get out of the way and deal with the aftermath than risk lives in the moment.

But we're all entitled to our own opinions, aren't we.

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Opinions, yes, facts, not so much.

1. By all accounts, he didn't go there to oppose rioters. In fact, he went there, to help them.
He went there to offer up his medical skills because he knew that some of them would get hurt due to their violent behavior.
He did, in fact, render first aid to several demonstrators/rioters prior to things going bad that night.
Also, prior to the nights rampage, he spent time cleaning up some of the mess from the previous nights unlawfulness.

As far as weather the business owner was present of not, I haven't heard, so I can't say for sure. I do know that it takes time to work your way up to business ownership. Typically, a business owner isn't a young person just starting out, so it may well be that the owner was an older person, and not there, but again, I don't know.
Either way, I'm pretty sure it wasn't his call to "put their lives at risk for HIS business" as you put it, and there is zero evidence to suggest it ever was.

They were there as volunteers, (by their own accounts) and the danger... was caused by violent criminal rioters. (with support from politicians, and media)
Also, the police force had been ordered to stand down (by local politicians) in order to allow the violence to happen. (creating more danger)

2. I'm not seeing how you can even think to compare a weather event like a hurricane, to a man made, politically driven riot...
However, if your idea of solving problems is to simply get out of the way, and clean up the mess later... you're in for a lifetime of cleaning up messes. (fact)
That is, until the mess gets too big to clean up.... and you're stuck with it forever.

hq said:

Out of curiosity, how much first hand experience do you have of putting your life on the line and assessing situations where that might actually take place? I most certainly wouldn't chicken out on standing up against destruction of property, be it mine or someone else's, without knowing and not just imagining that my life was on the line.

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Zero. And as a private citizen, I'm hoping to keep it that way.

Space Ghost said:

Opinions, yes, facts, not so much.

1. By all accounts, he didn't go there to oppose rioters. In fact, he went there, to help them.
He went there to offer up his medical skills because he knew that some of them would get hurt due to their violent behavior.
He did, in fact, render first aid to several demonstrators/rioters prior to things going bad that night.
Also, prior to the nights rampage, he spent time cleaning up some of the mess from the previous nights unlawfulness.

As far as weather the business owner was present of not, I haven't heard, so I can't say for sure. I do know that it takes time to work your way up to business ownership. Typically, a business owner isn't a young person just starting out, so it may well be that the owner was an older person, and not there, but again, I don't know.
Either way, I'm pretty sure it wasn't his call to "put their lives at risk for HIS business" as you put it, and there is zero evidence to suggest it ever was.

They were there as volunteers, (by their own accounts) and the danger... was caused by violent criminal rioters. (with support from politicians, and media)
Also, the police force had been ordered to stand down (by local politicians) in order to allow the violence to happen. (creating more danger)

2. I'm not seeing how you can even think to compare a weather event like a hurricane, to a man made, politically driven riot...
However, if your idea of solving problems is to simply get out of the way, and clean up the mess later... you're in for a lifetime of cleaning up messes. (fact)
That is, until the mess gets too big to clean up.... and you're stuck with it forever.

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He knew he might need to use lethal force to defend himself. It's why he took the AR. There's video evidence of this admission. In that video he also states he's going to protect/defend a business. How does one go about protecting/defending a business from people looking to commit property damage? Words. Getting between them and it. Sure. But what is they decided to push past or go around, or get to it whilst someone else causes a distraction? At some point it's far from unimaginable that some level of violence would irrupt. Isn't it?

Seriously, how does anyone envision protecting/defending a business from rioters?

I bring up the business owner because if the business is so important (as has been claimed) you'd think the owner themselves would be willing to make an appearance. Possibly even to address the crowd and plead that they not destroy his livelihood and source of income for all him employees.

I think it's a big assumption that violence would not have happened if the police hand not been stood down. Do you really think it would have been peaceful if they had engaged? Again, the NG was the answer here IMO.

I'm comparing a mob to a hurricane because at the point a mob forms, those within it are no longer acting in their usual manner. It becomes a primal force of what is often overwhelming power (if you need an example, see Jan 6th as evidence of such).

WrongHanded said:

Zero. And as a private citizen, I'm hoping to keep it that way.

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Playing it safe and not resisting is one approach. As a private citizen I couldn't live with myself if I did nothing to resist so it boils down to what you're willing to stomach when you look in the mirror afterwards.

hq said:

Playing it safe and not resisting is one approach. As a private citizen I couldn't live with myself if I did nothing to resist so it boils down to what you're willing to stomach when you look in the mirror afterwards.

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That's one way to look at it. Personally, I have no issues with preserving my life so that I may enjoy it with my wife. Some may want to see the BLM protests/riots as an ideological war of sorts. I don't.

That's right.
Just lay back and enjoy it - and hope that they don't kill you when they're done... .

WrongHanded said:

Some may want to see the BLM protests/riots as an ideological war of sorts. I don't.

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Well, you can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts. And the facts are that these protests are an ideological war; they have been co-opted by the radical left and no longer have anything to do with black lives.

The kid was wrong. He shouldn't have been there, even if he wanted to help. Like I said before, if he had it all to do over again, I bet he would have just stayed home.

WrongHanded said:

That's one way to look at it. Personally, I have no issues with preserving my life so that I may[snip]

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Preserving one's life and standing up for something as a part of it hardly are mutually exclusive. Then again, if someone thinks it's about ideology or even war (SIC!), attempts at dialog are bound to be woefully fruitless.

hq said:

Preserving one's life and standing up for something as a part of it hardly are mutually exclusive. Then again, if someone thinks it's about ideology or even war (SIC!), attempts at dialog are bound to be woefully fruitless.

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So what would someone be "standing up for" other than property, in such an instance?

bdickens said:

Well, you can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts. And the facts are that these protests are an ideological war; they have been co-opted by the radical left and no longer have anything to do with black lives.

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That's a fact huh? I think it's your opinion that it's a fact.

WrongHanded said:

So what would someone be "standing up for" other than property, in such an instance?

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Other than? Yes, property. What did you expect, delivering The Ring to Mordor?

I think we're done with this conversation.

hq said:

Other than? Yes, property. What did you expect, delivering The Ring to Mordor?

I think we're done with this conversation.

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We can be done. Or you could explain what protecting a property from a mob looks like in your mind. How exactly does one go about doing such a thing? If you've got dozens of people trespassing and trying to cause damage, how do you deal with that?

WrongHanded said:

That's a fact huh? I think it's your opinion that it's a fact.

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Are you serious? You ought to try pulling your head out of the sand once in awhile to look around.

Antifa doesn't give a flying F about black people.

WrongHanded said:

Some may want to see the BLM protests/riots as an ideological war of sorts. I don't.

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THEY disagree.

“You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” - Leon Trotsky

bdickens said:

Are you serious? You ought to try pulling your head out of the sand once in awhile to look around.

Antifa doesn't give a flying F about black people.

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I never said Antifa did. Though that might be hard to prove because Anti-Fa stands for Anti-Fascist, meaning against fascism. It's not like it's a club where they all have members cards. Some are anarchists, some call themselves social Democrats. It's a pretty eclectic group from my understanding.

But just because the BLM movement has been infiltrated by Antifa in some way, does not mean the majority of those supporting that cause are directly involved in any kind of ideological war of any description.

Your brush is too broad.