Expansion Industries Primer Plant

Gents, the best place to search for an active FFL is the ATF database, which is online and available for free. The following is pulled from line 1328 of the September licenses in Texas.

5 75 037 10 5E 14743 EXPANSION INDUSTRIES LLC EXPANSION AMMUNITION 777 FREEDOM WAY HOOKS TX 75561 777 FREEDOM WAY HOOKS TX 75561 4697242460

The 10 in the license is Manufacturer of Destructive Devices.

I know a small private ammo manufacturer (06 FFL) in North Carolina with a $50K investment in the plant. This is how additional funds were raised for the plant. Lots of small, independent ammo manufacturers that have first claim on production. Covid and ATF delays are the prime reason that this plant is delayed. I would guess that the ATF is in no hurry to allow it to operate.
 
The primer factory story was over 8 months ago. Lots of changes since then…..

1. Skyrocketing inflation
2. The doubling of interest rates.
3. Worsening labor shortage
4. Supply chain constraints
5. Depressed demand for firearms and components.

In perspective, the largest US primer manufacturer, (Vista Outdoor Inc.) has lost 44% of it’s value in the last 9 months.
That said, my optimism for any new primer plant is basically zero.
 
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markr6754 said:
Gents, the best place to search for an active FFL is the ATF database, which is online and available for free. The following is pulled from line 1328 of the September licenses in Texas.

5 75 037 10 5E 14743 EXPANSION INDUSTRIES LLC EXPANSION AMMUNITION 777 FREEDOM WAY HOOKS TX 75561 777 FREEDOM WAY HOOKS TX 75561 4697242460

The 10 in the license is Manufacturer of Destructive Devices.

I know a small private ammo manufacturer (06 FFL) in North Carolina with a $50K investment in the plant. This is how additional funds were raised for the plant. Lots of small, independent ammo manufacturers that have first claim on production. Covid and ATF delays are the prime reason that this plant is delayed. I would guess that the ATF is in no hurry to allow it to operate.
Click to expand...
Don’t buy this at all, no offense. Doesn’t mesh at all with BS financing story expansion has already told the press. And it takes a whole bunch of $50K investors to make $100 million.

Now I would believe small “investors” are getting scammed because that’s similar to the securities fraud that was busted in VA. But it’s not real.
 
CQB45ACP said:
You’re saying vista is involved here? I don’t believe that either, sorry.

I have no contacts anywhere so I look forward to a readout on your’s findings.
Click to expand...


I can personally attest to Vista's involvement in stopping a New Reloading start up 18 months back !.

How would I know that ,because I put the financial team together and sourced a location permits licenses the whole nine and a half yards .

They flat out refused to commit to supply primers on wholesale production ,so without their component ,we were doomed !.

FYI : Biden administration denied our import license ,as we were attempting to make a deal with a Czech supplier for specific components .

Mega bucks decide WHO plays and who walks and they're bank accounts are larger . We will ALL regret the day Vista was allowed to become a conglomerate in the shooting industry ; Mark MY words !.
 
Otto said:
The primer factory story was over 8 months ago. Lots of changes since then…..

1. Skyrocketing inflation
2. The doubling of interest rates.
3. Worsening labor shortage
4. Supply chain constraints
5. Depressed demand for firearms and components.

In perspective, the largest US primer manufacturer, (Vista Outdoor Inc.) has lost 44% of it’s value in the last 9 months.
That said, my optimism for any new primer plant is basically zero.
Click to expand...


Well they're certainly NOT losing monies on components ,Primers pre plandemic were less than $22.50 Wholesale per K

Anyone notice what they cost RETAIL NOW , $89.00-120 per K ,so I'd venture a guess #3 times + perhaps $75.00 wholesale ?

No one is losing monies on ammunition either . One thing I've learned over the decades People will tell you anything ,until you ask to see the bottom line ,they then have a tendency to Lawyer up as well as shut up .
 
BushMaster-15 said:
I can personally attest to Vista's involvement in stopping a New Reloading start up 18 months back !.

How would I know that ,because I put the financial team together and sourced a location permits licenses the whole nine and a half yards .

They flat out refused to commit to supply primers on wholesale production ,so without their component ,we were doomed !.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm just dense, but I don't see the parallel to your situation here. How can Vista stop a new primer factory from producing primers by not selling them primers?
 
BushMaster-15 said:
I can personally attest to Vista's involvement in stopping a New Reloading start up 18 months back !.

How would I know that ,because I put the financial team together and sourced a location permits licenses the whole nine and a half yards .

They flat out refused to commit to supply primers on wholesale production ,so without their component ,we were doomed !.

FYI : Biden administration denied our import license ,as we were attempting to make a deal with a Czech supplier for specific components .

Mega bucks decide WHO plays and who walks and they're bank accounts are larger . We will ALL regret the day Vista was allowed to become a conglomerate in the shooting industry ; Mark MY words !.
Click to expand...
Starting and maintaining a business can be tough no doubt but Vista is a publicly traded company and has a responsibility to it’s shareholders not someone else’s business.

Expecting Vista to enter into a contract and tie up funds for some possible, maybe, future, could be, doesn’t seem to be in their shareholders interest. Now you can add any sort of ulterior motive you want (and it may be true) but it’s only bidness.
 
BushMaster-15 said:
They flat out refused to commit to supply primers on wholesale production ,so without their component ,we were doomed!
Click to expand...
Given the demand for primers over the last few years, it's unsurprising that Vista wouldn't commit to supplying a new customer when they couldn't keep with their existing ones. I certainly wouldn't consider that an effort by Vista to prevent a new start-up.
 
I'm a little shocked at the number of anti-free enterprise posts. Freedom means people get to do things that are in their best interests, even if they aren't in yours. Let freedom ring!

As for new primer plants, rehabilitating old military facilities and that such stuff, the risks are huge and difficult to mitigate. The return on any single-product line manufacturing is slim and almost impossible to predict. The handloading/reloading public has always been a notoriously fickle and downright cheap consumer base, so any market speculation is bound to carry at least as much risk as the rehabilitation construction. I wish any entrepreneur good luck but have little hope for a successful venture. Then again, my own business tanked with the loss of just one key person so, what do I know? Not much, obviously. :(
 
Since Vista has been drug into this, what surprises me about Vista is that they have not moved heaven and earth to meet the demand. If more primers were needed, they were (and are) in the catbird seat to do it. Run existing lines at 100% plus capacity, 24/7.....and if that was not enough, expand capacity. They may be doing the first, but apparently, not the second. If not, why? Some say this shortage is a temporary blip and if they built excess more capacity, it would soon become excess capacity. That does not jive with the other explanation, which is all the new gun owners and new demand for ammo. If I have 100 mouths to feed, that is a set number. If that expands to 120 mouths to feed, and I can't pump enough food thru the kitchen I have, I need a bigger kitchen.

As to other comments about Vista, I woke up one day to realize that one company now controlled 3 out of 4 primer companies. That is a lot of eggs in one basket. If the wrong sort ever got control of that, it would be over. If the wrong sort ever wanted to silence guns in America, only logical way to do it is to starve them out. Without ammo, guns are nothing more than expensive clubs to wave around. The day I realized that was the day I set about assembling enough reloading components to last me a lifetime.

I don't shoot nearly as much as some of you guys. But even for those guys, I suspect what they shoot can be divided into hunting, self defense, etc. and on top of that, recreational shooting. Mag dumps and such. I hear some guys will go thru a brick of 22 lr in a single shooting session. Not me, but some do.

I'd suggest that all decide what their first baseline need is......the hunting, self defense, etc, and set that aside into an untouchable stash. Go thru the rest if you want, but don't touch your untouchable stash. If things to back to normal, pad the stash to your heart's content. But just be ready if anything happens with Vista adverse to what we ever want to see.
 
One additional problem with building a new primer plant..........it's not primer. It's primers......plural. You would want to start with a pie chart of which primer gets used most often. Be it SRP or SPP.........or ?????? I only use LRP and 209's.

How many primer types and sizes are there? 6 or 8? Which do you make?
 
Howa 9700 said:
Since Vista has been drug into this, what surprises me about Vista is that they have not moved heaven and earth to meet the demand. If more primers were needed, they were (and are) in the catbird seat to do it. Run existing lines at 100% plus capacity, 24/7.....and if that was not enough, expand capacity. They may be doing the first, but apparently, not the second. If not, why? Some say this shortage is a temporary blip and if they built excess more capacity, it would soon become excess capacity. That does not jive with the other explanation, which is all the new gun owners and new demand for ammo. If I have 100 mouths to feed, that is a set number. If that expands to 120 mouths to feed, and I can't pump enough food thru the kitchen I have, I need a bigger kitchen.

As to other comments about Vista, I woke up one day to realize that one company now controlled 3 out of 4 primer companies. That is a lot of eggs in one basket. If the wrong sort ever got control of that, it would be over. If the wrong sort ever wanted to silence guns in America, only logical way to do it is to starve them out. Without ammo, guns are nothing more than expensive clubs to wave around. The day I realized that was the day I set about assembling enough reloading components to last me a lifetime.

I don't shoot nearly as much as some of you guys. But even for those guys, I suspect what they shoot can be divided into hunting, self defense, etc. and on top of that, recreational shooting. Mag dumps and such. I hear some guys will go thru a brick of 22 lr in a single shooting session. Not me, but some do.

I'd suggest that all decide what their first baseline need is......the hunting, self defense, etc, and set that aside into an untouchable stash. Go thru the rest if you want, but don't touch your untouchable stash. If things to back to normal, pad the stash to your heart's content. But just be ready if anything happens with Vista adverse to what we ever want to see.
Click to expand...
Yes starve them out (no ammo nor components) is a logical way to begin control because search & confiscation of firearms themselves even if peaceful would take forever and be fraught with logistical problems.

Letting one or two corporations take control over manufacturing and sale of ammunition and components is another good step since they could be forced to shut down overnight.

And of course controlling finances, e.g. through credit card companies, would be another great step but that’ll never happen.

None of this will ever happen. Just like expansion industries.
 
Howa 9700 said:
One additional problem with building a new primer plant..........it's not primer. It's primers......plural. You would want to start with a pie chart of which primer gets used most often. Be it SRP or SPP.........or ?????? I only use LRP and 209's.
Click to expand...

Expansion said they would start with SP and SR because of the volume of 9mm and .223 being loaded, by commercial loaders as well as hobbyists.

Hooda Thunkit said:
Winchester is right now offering rebates on some of its ammo.
Click to expand...

The last primers I bought before the panicdemic were Winchesters, with a rebate.
 
higgite said:
I guess I'm just dense, but I don't see the parallel to your situation here. How can Vista stop a new primer factory from producing primers by not selling them primers?
Click to expand...

NO : Vista owns MORE than it should and therefore can manipulate market ,as it's got the lions share of components .

RAW MATERIALS ,may in fact be somewhat controlled and who better to control them ,then Vista :eek: They also have enough Venture capital they could have Bought out Expansion Industries !?. Nothing is written in stone ,it's super odd at a time when components are short that a NEW manufacturer wouldn't be up running on all cylinders . Perhaps even undercutting competition to become established .

The other possibility might be as previously stated ,direct supplier too ammunition manufacturing or maybe they went Military contract ?
I simply DON'T know but am trying to find out :D
 
Hooda Thunkit said:
Winchester is right now offering rebates on some of its ammo.
Unthinkable 12 months ago.
Click to expand...
Yup. And, looking at the same problem from another viewpoint can help too. The global chip crisis is still ongoing. Car production and industrial machinery production are equally effected. You don't see massive uprisings to build new chip factories. Why not? Because it's very well known in the electronics industry what a massive and expensive undertaking it is and how futile it would be just to alleviate the current "crisis."
 
BushMaster-15 said:
NO : Vista owns MORE than it should and therefore can manipulate market ,as it's got the lions share of components .

RAW MATERIALS ,may in fact be somewhat controlled and who better to control them ,then Vista :eek: They also have enough Venture capital they could have Bought out Expansion Industries !?. Nothing is written in stone ,it's super odd at a time when components are short that a NEW manufacturer wouldn't be up running on all cylinders . Perhaps even undercutting competition to become established .

The other possibility might be as previously stated ,direct supplier too ammunition manufacturing or maybe they went Military contract ?
I simply DON'T know but am trying to find out :D
Click to expand...
WRT primers, Expansion industries is vapor, nothing to buy, no machinery, nothing worth buying. Vista folks are smart and successful and plenty willing to buy up a business they believe has value. So many other fish to fry.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Yup. And, looking at the same problem from another viewpoint can help too. The global chip crisis is still ongoing. Car production and industrial machinery production are equally effected. You don't see massive uprisings to build new chip factories. Why not? Because it's very well known in the electronics industry what a massive and expensive undertaking it is and how futile it would be just to alleviate the current "crisis."
Click to expand...
Well, speaking to that directly...Taiwan Semiconductor, the world's largest chip manufacturer is well ahead on their new $12B plant in Arizona, and Intel just broke ground this year on their new $20B chip plant in Ohio. So yes...a massive and expensive undertaking that didn't require "massive uprisings" to get underway. It only took forward thinking businessmen to realize that even if the reds don't invade Taiwan, it makes sense to return manufacturing to the US which still has the world's largest economy...for now.
 
CQB45ACP said:
Don’t buy this at all, no offense. Doesn’t mesh at all with BS financing story expansion has already told the press. And it takes a whole bunch of $50K investors to make $100 million.

Now I would believe small “investors” are getting scammed because that’s similar to the securities fraud that was busted in VA. But it’s not real.
Click to expand...
None taken...I have a deep interest in their success, but no personal skin in the game. I am well stocked with every primer I could conceivably need for some time to come...but I'd certainly continue buying my stockpile if prices moderated. Heck...I might even pick up some large rifle primers, just to have something to trade in the future, or if I accidently pick up some Rem 6.8 SPC cases with large pockets.
 
CQB45ACP said:
WRT primers, Expansion industries is vapor, nothing to buy, no machinery, nothing worth buying. Vista folks are smart and successful and plenty willing to buy up a business they believe has value. So many other fish to fry.
Click to expand...


Problem is monopoly !. WHEN , not if ,Vista acquires enough market share it CONTROLS THE MARKET and competition is dead !.

I look back on so many firearms companies ,who allowed investor corporate raiding and ended up paying the ultimate price !.

I'm ALL for free enterprise ,until Government entities get their hooks into it and then consumers get SHAFTED !. AT&T Prime example ,spin off Direct TV and Dish same companies same master . We've already witnessed Gov. & Big Tech partnership and facecrook spying on it's customers private conversations ,while lawlessness reins supreme in blue states . Two tier justice serves NO ONE !.
 
markr6754 said:
Well, speaking to that directly...Taiwan Semiconductor, the world's largest chip manufacturer is well ahead on their new $12B plant in Arizona, and Intel just broke ground this year on their new $20B chip plant in Ohio. So yes...a massive and expensive undertaking that didn't require "massive uprisings" to get underway. It only took forward thinking businessmen to realize that even if the reds don't invade Taiwan, it makes sense to return manufacturing to the US which still has the world's largest economy...for now.
Click to expand...

Yeh, and you need to add Micron to that just-breaking-ground list and they still have more money to spend.
And the U.S. semi plants are being built with Biden money, something the primer makers will never get.
jmo,
.
 
markr6754 said:
Well, speaking to that directly...Taiwan Semiconductor, the world's largest chip manufacturer is well ahead on their new $12B plant in Arizona, and Intel just broke ground this year on their new $20B chip plant in Ohio. So yes...a massive and expensive undertaking that didn't require "massive uprisings" to get underway. It only took forward thinking businessmen to realize that even if the reds don't invade Taiwan, it makes sense to return manufacturing to the US which still has the world's largest economy...for now.
Click to expand...
Okay, let’s go there to get some perspective. Intel is a multi-billion dollar corporation. They have the full support of the Federal, State and Local governments. Congress passed a spending bill to pay for a large chunk of the project and waive environmental regulations. The labor unions are paying skilled and unskilled union members to move to the project site. That’s a pretty big chunk of support - I’m almost tempted to call it an uprising - and it still has been stalled by a lack of labor. It might be finished by 2025 if the contractors show up, housing gets built and the EPA doesn’t shut the site down for light metals pollution after the waiver expires. Those forward thinking businessmen have more support than the drug companies did developing covid vaccines and they are getting billions in federal money to pay for it.
 
Tilos said:
Yeh, and you need to add Micron to that list.
And the U.S. semi plants are being built with Biden money, something the primer makers will never get.
jmo,
.
Click to expand...
You beat me to it. Congress passed the semiconductor industry support bill giving trillions of dollars - directly and in-kind, combined - to build those plants. Including billions to Chinese firms to compete on US Soil. I guess I was wrong about there not being an uprising.
 
Howa 9700 said:
A little over a year ago, Sig Sauer announced and expansion of their Arkansas ammo plant, which according to reports at the time, also included the ability to make their own primers. Guess they got tired of waiting on Vista too. Reports then said it would be up and running by end of year (end of 2021). Can't find any news on that either.
Click to expand...

An article in the latest edition of Handloader magazine says that Sig is considering making primers but nothing solid in the works yet.
 
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