Condition 1 or Condition 2

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Kleanbore said:
That says noting about yhr pros and cons of so doing.

That's ridiculous. It would require performing the additional steps in an elapsed time of zero.

Such comfort and confidence comes at a price--the risk of not being abbey to react timely to an ambush--and is probably misplaced.
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I understand your concerns. Never said I was faster than other carry conditions. Just that it can keep up. I probably fall somewhere in the middle of average for pistol shooting skills. So as not to hijack this thread next time I go the range I'll take my timer and run some drills and post them in a new thread. Probably in a week or so. I'll also post my pros and cons in that thread.
 
Matches are not fights. That's the point. You are not entangled. You do not have your hand hurt. If you get beyond matches into FOF, you will see the difference. I've had my dominant hand in cast for months. I have some skill in one handed manipulation - do I want to do that voluntarily - Heck NO.

The gamers chase milliseconds without considering fight ecology.
 
Gork10 said:
I understand your concerns. Never said I was faster than other carry conditions. Just that it can keep up. I probably fall somewhere in the middle of average for pistol shooting skills. So as not to hijack this thread next time I go the range I'll take my timer and run some drills and post them in a new thread. Probably in a week or so. I'll also post my pros and cons in that thread.
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While you're there, you should do some one handed drills, with both primary and support hand and let us know how it goes.
 
GEM said:
Matches are not fights. That's the point. You are not entangled. You do not have your hand hurt. If you get beyond matches into FOF, you will see the difference. I've had my dominant hand in cast for months. I have some skill in one handed manipulation - do I want to do that voluntarily - Heck NO.

The gamers chase milliseconds without considering fight ecology.
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I've been training in grappling/martial arts and FOF for most of my adult life, I'm in my 50's. Except for a couple of IDPA matches maybe 2 a year and trap I don't compete in any shooting sports.
 
You wrote this above
Gork10 said:
I train two and one handed getting my pistol into action from various positions on the timer and with training partners
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and now you offer
Gork10 said:
next time I go the range I'll take my timer and run some drills and post them in a new thread. Probably in a week or so.
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You really didn't record any past results you could share before your next range trip that might support your original assertion?


Here's the data I would like to see (now or later would be fine...in your new thread if necessary):

Time to one accurate shot (TTFS) using a two-handed grip from 5 yards, using your preferred gun, holster, and concealment, average of 20 shots, starting with gun in condition 3.

Versus

Time to one accurate shot using a two-handed grip from 5 yards, using the same target, ammo, gun, holster, and concealment, average of 20 shots, starting with gun in condition 1.


You seem like an honest, thoughtful person, and I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to bust your chops.

I'm interested because I have a new friend who has carried in condition 3 for decades, and I'd like to have verifiable TTFS data from someone who has practiced condition 3 carry in preparation for a discussion with him.

I've never given condition 3 carry a second thought, and the chance to get results from someone who has experience with it would be a rare treat.
 
JohnKSa said:
My general rule of thumb is that if I'm carrying a gun with a manual safety, I practice always disengaging the safety on the draw whether I carry safety on or off. Seen too many levers end up in the wrong position after hours of carry to assume that it's definitely going to be in the same position I expect it to be.

Anyway, that means I wouldn't carry a gun with a safety I couldn't easily disengage unless the safety were modified so it could not be engaged.
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Yup.
Have an SR1911 with the extended thumb safety. Sometimes the holster will snag the safety and disengage it while holstering. I always do the disengage on draw anyway.
Haven't had any normal-size safeties disengage.
Galco Fletch holster.
 
luzyfuerza said:
You wrote this above

and now you offer

You really didn't record any past results you could share before your next range trip that might support your original assertion?


Here's the data I would like to see (now or later would be fine...in your new thread if necessary):

Time to one accurate shot (TTFS) using a two-handed grip from 5 yards, using your preferred gun, holster, and concealment, average of 20 shots, starting with gun in condition 3.

Versus

Time to one accurate shot using a two-handed grip from 5 yards, using the same target, ammo, gun, holster, and concealment, average of 20 shots, starting with gun in condition 1.


You seem like an honest, thoughtful person, and I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to bust your chops.

I'm interested because I have a new friend who has carried in condition 3 for decades, and I'd like to have verifiable TTFS data from someone who has practiced condition 3 carry in preparation for a discussion with him.

I've never given condition 3 carry a second thought, and the chance to get results from someone who has experience with it would be a rare treat.
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No worries. I'm always up for a good civil debate. The permamators you mentioned mirror what I was planning. The only difference is that the range I shoot at this time of year forbids drawing and shooting from a holster. I'll have the pistol laying on the bench, hands at shoulder height till the buzzer then pickup and manipulate the gun and shoot two handed. I'll do this at least 3 times both condition 1 and 3. Probably a lot more. The pistol will be a Girsan p35 pi. I'll write down my times and take some photos of the times on the timer. In the summer when I relocate to the north county I have a lot more freedom in my training.
 
hutch51 said:
Yup.
Have an SR1911 with the extended thumb safety. Sometimes the holster will snag the safety and disengage it while holstering. I always do the disengage on draw anyway.
Haven't had any normal-size safeties disengage.
Galco Fletch holster.
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Yes, I have had the same issue with the few guns that I've owned that have had safeties. Currently it's my Springfield Hellcat. There have been multiple occasions when I noticed the safety was disengage most likely while holstering.

Resizer_17100984012963.jpeg
 
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Sorry, I missed the average of 20 shots in my first read of your post. I'll probably go through a box or two of ammo alternating between condition 1 and 3.
 
Gork10 said:
I'll have the pistol laying on the bench, hands at shoulder height till the buzzer then pickup and manipulate the gun and shoot two handed.
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This makes a lot of difference. You cannot draw and rack from a holster simultaneously, whereas from a bench it can be done while presenting the gun.
Safeties, OTOH, can be disengaged as soon as the hand hits the grip.
 
Gork10 said:
I'll have the pistol laying on the bench, hands at shoulder height till the buzzer then pickup and manipulate the gun and shoot two handed.
Click to expand...
Might be interesting I suppose but that drill doesn't really have much bearing on the topic. A one handed draw to first shot time would be more relevant, especially if it was with your support hand.
 
If you practice the martial arts - start with a sims gun or the like - something that has to be racked. Have a cover garment and start with a guy on you - not standing with a buzzer. See if you get the gun out and racked when entangled. We did this in knife classes with training knives and someone grabbing you, on top of you, etc. You had to get the knife out and opened (Spyderco trainers). It was interesting.

I know a fair number of excellent firearms trainers who are also martial artists at a decent level. None of them ever mentioned unchambered carry as plus. But to each his own. Buzzers and timers are pretty meaningless.
 
My 1st choice would be to install an ambi safety.

I know carrying empty chamber is frowned upon on the internet, but it is still widely used and used successfully. Quick draw shooting just doesn't happen that often. Most of the time, there is time to chamber a round. If not, then it just ain't your day.

To be clear, a loaded chamber with a safety is my personal preference. But I'd rather carry a 1911 or BHP with an empty chamber than with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Unlike a revolver the hammers on those guns are not easily cocked and fired quickly. IMO it would be just as fast and safe to chamber a round with those guns.
 
jmr40 said:
I know carrying empty chamber is frowned upon on the internet, but it is still widely used and used successfully.
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Really? Do you have a basis for that?
jmr40 said:
Quick draw shooting just doesn't happen that often. Most of the time, there is time to chamber a round.
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Really? o you have a basis for that?

Could you do that in a Tueller drill?
 
When I see discussions on what condition to carry a Semi auto pistol I refer them to The Active Self Protection Channel on YouTube.

You will be able to see numerous examples of what state you should carry in.

You do you.

Search YouTube for: active self protection + empty chamber. No shortage of examples
 
The only difference is that the range I shoot at this time of year forbids drawing and shooting from a holster. I'll have the pistol laying on the bench, hands at shoulder height till the buzzer then pickup and manipulate the gun and shoot two handed. I'll do this at least 3 times both condition 1 and 3. Probably a lot more. The pistol will be a Girsan p35 pi. I'll write down my times and take some photos of the times on the timer. In the summer when I relocate to the north county I have a lot more freedom in my training.
Click to expand...

To get meaningful results:
  • Testing should be done from the normal carry rig.
  • If this is for concealed carry it should be done wearing normal concealment attire.
  • No warmups. There are no warmups in the real world.
  • Bobbles count. The time starts at the beep and ends when the shot is fired. Period. There are no do-overs in the real world.
  • Testing needs to be done with the normal carry gun in normal carry condition. e.g. If the gun is normally carried with a full mag, testing should be done starting with a full mag, not with a reduced round count in the magazine. If the normal carry gun is a pocket pistol, then the testing should not be done with a full-sized pistol.
Because it's not possible to control the circumstances of an attack, this testing should also include some real world contingencies. In addition to drawing and firing two-handed, one-handed testing should be done.

1. Draw and fire one-handed strong hand without using the weak hand to manipulate the gun, as would be required if the weak hand were occupied (e.g. in self defense) or if it were injured.
2. Draw and fire one-handed weak hand without using the strong hand to manipulate the gun as would be required if the strong hand were occupied (e.g. in self defense) or if it were injured.
 
JohnKSa said:
To get meaningful results:
  • Testing should be done from the normal carry rig.
  • If this is for concealed carry it should be done wearing normal concealment attire.
  • No warmups. There are no warmups in the real world.
  • Bobbles count. The time starts at the beep and ends when the shot is fired. Period. There are no do-overs in the real world.
  • Testing needs to be done with the normal carry gun in normal carry condition. e.g. If the gun is normally carried with a full mag, testing should be done starting with a full mag, not with a reduced round count in the magazine. If the normal carry gun is a pocket pistol, then the testing should not be done with a full-sized pistol.
Because it's not possible to control the circumstances of an attack, this testing should also include some real world contingencies. In addition to drawing and firing two-handed, one-handed testing should be done.

1. Draw and fire one-handed strong hand without using the weak hand to manipulate the gun, as would be required if the weak hand were occupied (e.g. in self defense) or if it were injured.
2. Draw and fire one-handed weak hand without using the strong hand to manipulate the gun as would be required if the strong hand were occupied (e.g. in self defense) or if it were injured.
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100% agree. It's amazing (and kinda sad) how many folks one encounters who have never even fired their handgun with their support hand, let alone tried to draw it, reload it, or manipulate it in any way.
 
Folks carry revolvers all the time and don't worry about such things. The only different is that of trigger pull of a typical DA revolver and let's say a Glock. A few pounds heavier. You can still ND a revolver with an inadvertent pull due to a startle, trip, sympathetic grip, etc.

This is old ground. If you cannot trust yourself to draw a chambered standard semi - the problem is looking at you in the mirror. All the organizations that mandated unchambered carry couldn't trust their folks.
 
John's Post #46 is on target.

Do not really on the mean times alone. Record the modes and the times for each of the three slowest shots.

Do not perform the draws in rapid sequence--that would effecitively serve as a warmup.
 
Gork10 said:
With all due respect I have to disagree with condition 3 not being useful. I've been carrying a simiauto empty chamber for more than 20 years. I will admit that it takes more training than other carry methods. But if you put in the time it can be just as fast as other conditions. I train two and one handed getting my pistol into action from various positions on the timer and with training partners. Is it for everyone, no. I'm comfortable and confident with my carry method. By the way, I'm left handed.
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Hey, as long as you're safe, carry on.

But we should shoot a dualing tree sometime.

bearcreek said:
While you're there, you should do some one handed drills, with both primary and support hand and let us know how it goes.
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Racking off the holster is actually really quick.

I wouldn't want to do it, while on my back though.....

Empty chamber is just a bad idea when the market is flooded with safe pistols and holsters.
 
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