Crazy crackhead video

To the ones here who say they'd shoot, you'd be charged with murder.

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Charged, possibly...but with the video evidence and all, I think a DA would have to have a political death wish to charge a woman with murder for shooting that "guy" through the windshield while he was inches from bashing their heads in with a hooked steel rod. But even if, I'm having a seriously hard time believing you would get convicted of anything other than taking out the trash.

I see your ability to defend your actions in the event of a shooting being exponentially more difficult if you exit the car first to get a better shot at him or goad him into attacking you directly to be able to justify the shoot.

- Gabe

To the ones here who say they'd shoot, you'd be charged with murder...
In Nevada you cannot shoot to protect property, and that's what the DA'a argument would be. He dancing around the car smashing it - as much as I'd like to shoot him I'd know that I couldn't because of what would happen.

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Once he came around to the driver's side of the car the DA's argument disolves ... plus with that video I seriously doubt you'd get a jury to convict.

The problem with these arguments is you have to put your whole life on the line to test your theory. Do you really want to lose your house, job and everything else to test it? I don't, and it was drummed into us very well at CCW class that if you shoot someone in LV that will happen. Then you get the civil suit from Mr. Crackhead's family. 5 years down the road after you've lost everything and the court proceedings are over you'll wish you hadn't chose to shoot.

If I feel my life or my wife's is in danger I will shoot - but I would not get away with shooting if I were in that car. Maybe that woman would but not me, a 6'3" male. My only choice would be to stop him before he got there or to drive away.

Depends on the situation. If I'm buy myself in the vehicle then I would make every attempt to simply drive away. OTOH, if I have my kids in the vehicle then it probably just became open season on crackheads.

The problem with these arguments is you have to put your whole life on the line to test your theory.

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Same thing with YOUR theory ... you have to put your actual life on the line and hope the crackhead will stop with bashing your windows/fenders or that traffic will get out of your way so you can escape before he gets to bashing in your head.


As for me ... I'd rather live and have to go to court then die.

Probably pre-planned but without the drivers knowledge.


As for those saying its simply destruction of property, things happen SO fast and it quickly could have escalated into lethal force (ie a tire iron on your skull instead of the car) in just 1 second and with no warning. At that point your reaction time is behind in the game and youre in way over your head. Especially considering how fear paralyzes. For an example of fear paralyzing - consider how long it took that driver to respond and try to get away.

It’s a crying shame if that did not justify lethal force. I cosign powderman’s post.

Same thing with YOUR theory ... you have to put your actual life on the line and hope the crackhead will stop with bashing your windows/fenders or that traffic will get out of your way so you can escape before he gets to bashing in your head.

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Seems obvious to me that she could have turned the wheel to the right and drove away - that means shooting would not be a last resort. That means you're going to jail.

I always get the feeling that alot of the guys that say "I'd shoot" don't even have a CCW and haven't been to a CCW class, and don't know the laws. Yes, this guy needs shooting. No, this is not a clear cut situation that warrants shooting.

How come people that talk like that keep asking "You know what I'm saying?" Are they ranting so that it's incomprehensible even to themself?

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Someone should add subtitles. What he was saying could help us figure out his motive.

It should have been a legal shoot the moment he intentionally hit her car with the tire iron.

Seems obvious to me that she could have turned the wheel to the right and drove away

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Thats not obvious to me ... go rewatch the video, she pulls forward and back and the forward again before the car in front of her gets out of the way. Seems to me the driver TRIED to leave the scene and couldn't. (are we sure the driver is a "she"?)



So does anyone know the real source of this video? I'd love to know the story behind it ... looks like its being hosted on some Canadian punk/wannabe gang-rat kid's webspace, but I doubt he's the guy who filmed it.

Oh God... please strike that waste of DNA down. Tonight if possible.

It's a tough call in some ways, but I think the tape might be real.
I knew some guys back in NYC who would make films and such. They would film and interview people of all types. Sometimes they would "interview" bums and the insane that walked the streets of New York. Nothing like that happened, but some crazy stuff was caught on tape.

Seems to me the driver TRIED to leave the scene and couldn't.

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I agree Zundfolge. It bothers Me that it appears that no one came to the drivers aid.

If I was in that situation alone, in My car... He'd probably get shot. Would'nt be happy about it, but I don't think I would sit there and just take the attack sitting down. At that point in time, I'd think I was going to be killed or maimed. God forbid if My family was in the car. I'd have to protect them.
Hmmmm... fifteen rounds of GoldDot 124 Gr. +P 9MM + moron with a crowbar = no more moron.
*shrug*

Anyone think the cops in Las Vegas have a copy of this? Maybe they should get one if they don't.
*wink, wink*

She pulled up and back because she didn't know what to do. She could of turned the wheel and escaped even if it meant hitting the car in front of her. Several people in this thread have mentioned that she could have drove away - and that's why you'd be arrested.

You must find a way out without shooting if you can - and being an observer here I think she could have gotten away sooner.

If this happened to me out of the blue I don't know that I wouldn't have shot him, especially if he busted the window next to my wife. I just know what would probably happen if I did. Is it right? Hell no! They told us if a guy is standing 10 feet away with a knife demanding your wallet to throw it over his head and go the other way - but don't shoot. I still have problems with that one and can't imagine my gun not coming out if a guy is that close with a knife.

Seems obvious to me that she could have turned the wheel to the right and drove away - that means shooting would not be a last resort. That means you're going to jail.

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Not necessarily.

Remember that the law hinges primarily on the "reasonable man" doctrine, as in, "What a reasonable person would believe given the circumstances".

So, what would a reasonable person believe in this instance?

1. There is a goblin present.
2. This goblin has approached--and encroached--into your personal space.
3. Said goblin has in his hand an object which is being used as a weapon, and which at the distance the video represents, can cause death or serious bodily harm.
4. The goblin has also manifested malicious intent toward you by repeatedly striking the vehicle with great force, and by his language and actions.

Thus, would a reasonable person believe the following:

1. Is there a threat? Yes.
2. Is the threat immediate? Yes.
3. Is the threat directed at you or your person, or another person close by? Yes.
4. Is the threat capable of killing you, or causing you serious damage? Yes.

And, the most important points:

Has the person who is posing the threat, threatened YOU? Yes.
Has the person who is posing the threat manifested mens rea, the "evil mind"? Absolutely.

Given the totality of the circumstances, does the mens rea, together with the physical acts of the goblin pose a clear and imminent danger to you? ABSOLUTELY!!!

Solution: Deadly force authorized.

The nature of the threat is such that no warning is necessary--or, judging from the video, even possible.

Draw your weapon, and engage with rounds aimed center of mass. Also, from the looks and demeanor of the goblin, he's "cracked up", or perhaps on a bit of bathtub crank. Be prepared for a failure to stop.

And, given the circumstances, the victim would probably not even be arrested, with consideration given to the immediacy of the threat, the presence of witnesses, the visible damage, and the videotape! Officer's discretion would definitely apply.

I always get the feeling that alot of the guys that say "I'd shoot" don't even have a CCW and haven't been to a CCW class, and don't know the laws. Yes, this guy needs shooting. No, this is not a clear cut situation that warrants shooting.

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I wouldn't be too sure of a blanket statement concerning the expertise of the people on this board, either.

As for me, what do I know? Heck, I'm just a street cop.

anyone think the cops in Las Vegas would have drawn their guns on him? Anyone think they would have shot him if he did not immediately put that tire iron down?

I dont know about Las Vegas but the cops here in San Diego dont play. They have shot people for weilding less dangerous objects than an iron club.

Seems obvious to me that she could have turned the wheel to the right and drove away - that means shooting would not be a last resort. That means you're going to jail.

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Are you watching the same video? There was a car in front of her, blocking her path - that much is clear. Also clear is that by the time she DID pull up and turn right, that car was gone. Also clear at the end of the video is there were more than 2 carlengths in front of her, so probably at least two cars were in front of her. To the immediate right? You dont know what was there blocking her path.

Aside from a pedestrian with a camera.

It bothers Me that it appears that no one came to the drivers aid.

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Here? It shouldn't suprise anyone. 50% are so stupid just getting from light to light is a huge task, and the other 50% are on their cell phones and wouldn't notice. We rarely go down that way just because of the traffic and low-lifes. I have been to that store though - it's all crap but there's alot of it!

Are you watching the same video? There was a car in front of her, blocking her path

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Again, she wasn't blocked enough to keep her from getting away until she rolled forward. If she had cut the wheel and gone she'd of hit the car in front of her - and escaped. That's all the police need to say to make it a bad shoot. Hey, you guys can shoot all you want - I'm just telling you what'll happen here if you do.

Metro cops shoot people all the time here - what does that have to do with anything? The rules for us and them are completely different, and they ain't gonna be there when you need them.

I wouldn't be too sure of a blanket statement concerning the expertise of the people on this board, either.

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I see way too many "I'd shoot in a second" responses in this board in situations where you just can't shoot. Situations where they're in a bank or store and think they need to defend everyone. People are unaware of the law but that doesn't stop them from SAYING they'd shoot.

That's all the police need to say to make it a bad shoot

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I'm with Valkman. While deadly force is probably okay here, your first moral and legal obligation is to descelate the situation. If you can't reasonably descelate the situation, then deadly force is okay.
I'm no lawyer, but I did stay awake during my CCW class. Here in Utah that would have not been a clear okay shoot.
Now, if in the process you clip the goblin with your car...hey you were trying to escape a tire-iron wielding attacker!


Lets say the car was completely boxed in. Then it'd be a good shoot.
Or you got stuck or the vehicle became disabled while trying to escape, and the attack continued. Yet another good shoot.

What disturbs me here is the number of it's-a-legal-justified-shoot-no-sweat and no-don't-do-it-you'll-go-to-jail posts from all over the country. The only people who should be making that kind of posts in this situation are CCW holders or cops or the like who do or have lived in Las Vegas. Anyone else is dreaming.

Did the guy deserve to be shot?
Yes.

Would you be morally justified in shooting him?
IMO, yes.

Would the cops and the court system ageree with me?
I don't know. I don't live in Vegas.

The minute that tire iron hit anywhere near the driver (when he went to the drivers side bashing it) I think they would be justified in shooting them. Otherwise I would have just curbed the car and got the hell outa there.

Did anyone even understand a word that man said?

Societal low lifes

Seems to me the driver TRIED to leave the scene and couldn't.

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Tactical mistake on her part. Before she pulled up she could have easily (judging by the video) pulled around the traffic, using the sidewalk, or hung a very hard right turn (possibly a 3-point turn) to turn into the parking lot. Of course, the camerman would have had to move, and the driver wouldn't be justified in hitting the camerman.
Anyone that thinks that PT cruiser wouldn't fit between the traffic and the electrical box, using the sidewalk, obviously hasn't done much off-road driving.

The only people who should be making that kind of posts in this situation are CCW holders or cops or the like who do or have lived in Las Vegas

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Well since deadly force laws across the country are pretty much inline with each other, I think any CCW holder will typically have an idea of what the law states.

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The web page you are trying to access doesn't exist on members.shaw.ca



I wanna see.....

I dunno folks, heres MY hypothetical here...

Your on vacation, your wife or loved one is in the hotel and your heading out to grab the take out you ordered earlier. Your not too familar with the location, your focused on the directions. You dont have your CCW peice on you, and then all the sudden here it comes.

This guy, comes out've NOWHERE and starts beating on your car. You're nearly lost, your confused. Its an incredibly high stress situation, this guy has a bar and is beating on you NOW. Car infront, car behind...and your expected to see a turnoff thats not in the LOS? Lets examine whats happening here, tunnel vision, an adrenaline rush....


CCW or not, your all forgetting the weapon at hand here car. It may be a plastic play car, but I'll promise you three thousand pounds of plastic bashing into your shins before it runs you over wont be fun. Your vehicle is a deadly weapon, who cares about shoot or no shoot. Either ram him, run him over and speed away or just speed away. THis is why I'm always surprised with guys spend tons of scratch on tons and tons and tons of additional CCW classes and fail to take even one proper combat driving course. Yes, handling a Pistol, rifle or shotgun to its fullest extent is very important however is it suddenly less important to be able to defend yourself with your vehicle?


Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. Train with only firearms and when theres a crisis situation, all you'll have to respond with are firearms.

I always get the feeling that alot of the guys that say "I'd shoot" don't even have a CCW and haven't been to a CCW class, and don't know the laws.

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It's just a feeling because you know better. The explanation lies in the fact that there is no time for consideration of these things when the sudden shock of something like this happens. You do what you have to do when you have to do it. At least I do! I can't help other than to operate on instinct. It's saves my life. Maybe I am not normal?

I've had a tire iron shaken in my face while backed into a corner. I found it very easy to read the other person's intent. You do what you have to do BEFORE it's too late. You will know when that is. Apparently the prosecutor agrees with this because I was never charged.

The BG in this video seems well focused on the car but at the point where he is standing near the drivers window he'd best not look at my person because that's what I'd be watching for. Barring loss of focus on the vehicle, breeching the integrity of my refuge would be enough for me. With any luck he have hit the ground with the glass. That's just how it is, like I said, being judged by anyone would not have been a consideration. I've been through crap like this too many times to know any different.

Link Changed.

http://members.shaw.ca/fivelitermustang/holdingitdown.wmv

If it goes down again I'll mirror it.

Pardon my laziness; I didn't thoroughly read all of these posts. I skimmed most of 'em, and got one genreal impression:


It would be a legal shoot if the driver couldn't have driven away.
It would have been an illegal shoot if the driver could have driven to safety, but instead chose to pop the twit.


I've tried rewatching it afew times, and I really can't tell with any certainty if a car could have slipped through and driven away. I can tell you that if I was behind the wheel of that car, I doubt I would have had the presense of mind to think of trying to jump the curb or squeaze past on the right.

I probably would have started ramming things (other cars in my way, the attacker, whatever) until I felt safe again. Pulling a gun probably wouldn't have occured to me until after the fact.

I think part of the issue that I have with some of the Ramboid responses is the name-brand dropping—15 rounds of this to COM—instead of an analysis of what's going on.

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I'm sorry You feel that way.
It was not meant to portray a "Ramboid" attitude in any way. Not to mention, some people engaged in a SD shooting have emptied their weapon when in the heat of the moment. It's not exactly the best thing to do, but it does happen. It sometimes happens to trained professionals as well.
It was a statement that was somewhat tounge in cheek too.
Not to mention, it's My favorite load of choice when I have My pistol in My car. It's a good load, why not mention it? My other mag is loaded with FMJ's by the way. Winchester white box just so You know.... Ooops! I just dropped another name brand. Silly Me.

How many of you have had your door panels kicked in in the projects? There's a lot about territorialism that can't be understood by people who have never had direct contact with folks who live and breathe the idea that living on one street, or one block, or in one neighborhood, or wearing a certain color, or even having one pant-leg up or down actually means something.

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*Jim raises hand*

Unfortunately, I understand it all too well. Growing up and living in a bad neighborhood in NYC can do that to You.