Crazy crackhead video

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Years ago , when Fla had first adopted CCW, a local news station did a series called Shoot Don't Shoot. Each night for a week they profiled a different scenario.

This was one of them or at least something similar. In theirs a guy was standing at the drivers door with some type of tool getting ready to break the window. The ruling was as soon as the window broke shoot.

In this case the BG had already smashed the car including the windsheild when he approached the drivers window and drew back. This would give any rational person the belief that he would do the same to the driver's window at that point I believe he would have been shootable. And at many points afterward.
 
Some of the people posting here need to watch the video a few times. I have read the entire thread and would like to add a few points.

1. The bg at first attacked with the crow bar towards the DRIVER SIDE WINDOW/DOOR. This is near the victim and would constitute a means.

2. The driver attempted to escape.

3. Contrary to what some on here may seem to believe, a crow bar is a deadly weapon; indeed, it just as dangerous or moreso than a bat or knife.

4. Go through the list of what constitutes a legal use of deadly force.

The defender in question must be innocent of provoking the occasion for the act of self defensive - check

The threat defended against must be deadly (intended or likely to cause death or grave bodily injury i.e. wielding crow bar into victim) - check

The threat defended against must be imminent or immediate - check

Ability on the part of the aggressor(s) to deliver on a threat of grave bodily harm (disparity of force, or a deadly weapon) - check

Opportunity to deliver on the threat (proximity in time or distance) - check

Jeopardy (evident intent to act upon the ability and opportunity that poses imminent jeopardy of death or grave bodily harm) - check

The circumstances would in my eyes elicit the use the deadly force. Two things to consider: the bg did not just go to the front bumper and start hitting it, he was attacking the victim on all sides (including the driver side). This is not just an attack on a vehicle, this was an attack on the victim when glass was broken, elevating the level of both means and intention of harm. Second, the escape route was attempted, the victim has then tried to retreat, and thus has his or her back against the wall. One way in which an imminent deadly threat might be otherwise avoidable and the defender's use of deadly force, therefore, not necessary would be in case the defender both had and saw an opportunity to retreat. The law on the duty to retreat holds, roughly, as follows. In virtually all American jurisdictions, a defender has no duty to retreat from her own premises (her home or business premises, or those of another where she's permitted to be). On the other hand, in public places, it is generally held that a defender has a duty to retreat, but only if she knows that she can escape with complete safety to herself and to others. This was extended. Summingly, the victim had all legal grounds to justify the use of deadly force. Indeed, would I have used deadly force, I don't know, but for the poor lady, or perhaps a family member of mine or yours for that matter, it would be very suprising and exasperating to see a DA pursue an unjust use of deadly force in these circumstances.
 
Considering how much I value my life and the lives of my wife and daughter I would not hesitate shooting this criminal. Based on what I saw in the video, it appeared impossible to drive away from the threat.
 
I think many people are over analyzing this video.

Think of it this way.

You are stuck in traffic, behind other cars, unable to move forward, turn around, or pretty much go anywhere.

A man runs up to your car, hits your windshield with a crow bar, comes over to the drivers side and swings at your window there, with what can be considered a lethal weapon.

Forget everything past this point in the video.

At this point the vagrant has shown the means, the opportunity and the motive. He is actively attacking at you, with a lethal weapon, hitting the window to get to you. At least, that is your perception. Any reasonable person would feel that as well.

At that point, lethal force is more than just justified.

As for the comments about busing vagrents out of town, and the officer who claimed it doesn't still happen. Maybe not in your town sir, but it does still happen.

I once worked in a large S. Cal city as a photojournalist, and went on a ride along with an officer who admitted to this very practice. He would find a vagrant, take them to the trolley, pay for the ticket with his own money, and send them to another part of the county. Let other officers deal with them.

And they would do the same thing.

I.G.B.
 
I think trying to ram the crack head would be a death sentence. There is no way that car could gain enough speed to do any damage. He would probably jump onto the hood and then be *very* angry and even more crazy. He could kill her very quickly after that.
 
And if they actually did that, they are lucky to not have found themselves at the receiving end of a lawsuit.
It was an accusation made by the leadership of LV, and that several Olympic trust or advocacy groups were doing it.
 
It would be a difficult decision for me, since I would probably have my 3.5yr old son or 1.5yr old daughter in the back.

Either crash my way out, driving an uninvolved party into the intersection...

Or shoot, possibly damaging my children's eyes and years with the decibels, burning powder and shattering glass...

Or try to run him down, which is probably harder than it sounds...

Or get out to draw him away from the kids, and put myself well within the Tueller danger zone.

Suffice to say, I don't like my options. But I think I'd have to draw, get out and open fire. Unless he decided to remain at the driver side window, which would be a big help. :)
 
Ok, most of the analysis of this video has been from the perspective that you are inside the car. What would you have done if you were in an adjacent car to the victims car in this video? (1) carrying and 2) not carrying.

I think I saw one or two people on the cell phones on what I would assume be calling 911. As for my response, I would have been a good witness and pulled off ahead of traffic to help point out the guy to the cops. If he would have started to penetrate the car, i.e. start swinging at just her on driver side or try to drag her out, it's intervention time, and I would be out of my car with pistol in hand, but damn if that would be a very tough shot with him right in front of the driver side door....other option would be to charge him pepper spray in hand, and tackle from behind. Being 25 and fast, if he see's me, I have no trouble with him giving chase to me as I guarantee he won't catch me and it'll draw attention away from victim, and if he does catch up, it's Mr. glock for him.

x
 
Did a little researching..... This video is part of a series called "Bum Fights Volume 3". Many of the participants in the videos have been charged with felony's. The preview of it has a clip of the situation.

http://www.bumfights.com
 
I wouldn't feel any remorse about pinning the gas pedal to the floor and flattening the gentleman.



As bad as the assault on the car was, I've seen worse done by striking union goons to the cars of office workers who have to cross the line to get to work.:fire:
 
Our objectives are twofold, and not interchangeable:
1) Prevent our death or serious injury.
2) Do so in a way that insulates us from felony prosecution.

Each person's response or 'fear reflex' may be different. Some would come completely unglued at the sight of the vagrant shouting and pounding on the fender. Others may not become seriously alarmed, or really fearful until the crowbar broke glass, making them vulnerable to the next blow. Some would become extremely angry at some point in the attack. Few would have the wherewithall to think through the actions they are about to take. Getting out of the car is not an option, although someone very experienced in hand to hand combat could probably disarm the crackhead. (But they would do so at their own peril, who knows what blood borne diseases this guy has?).

What would be the overwhelming response if you were attacked like this? Would it be fear or anger? Different people may react differently. It is easy to sit behind a computer and dispassionately analyze the scenario over several days. I think I know myself well enough to know I would attempt to escape by any means possible, failing that, I would attack and not stop until somebody was dead. YMMV.
 
Some of the differences of opinion I think mirror different state laws.
Here in TN the standard is "reasonable fear of death or bodily harm." There is, by statute, no duty to retreat. So all the posts about driving around him are not applicable here in TN. Maybe NV is different.
I think anyone in that situation would be afraid of death or bodily harm. That justifies shooting, at least in this state. And if the victim is justified then anyone else would be as well. It's a tough call but if I were in the next car I think I would be justified in neutralizing the threat.
 
I'll add that getting out of the car seems like good tactics--better opportunity for a clean shot, less deafening blast, less possibility of glass shards going into eyes.
For the people who advocate ramming, what is the difference between running him over and shooting him? I dont see any.
 
Rabbi,

I think that it's because you're not using a gun, which is designed to *kill*, but using a car, which is a means for getting around. The fact that you had a gun doesn't have to come up at all. After all, most people have a car, but probably don't carry. A good defense lawyer (remember, no matter what, get one!) could argue that you were seeking *escape*, and the goblin got in the way.
 
Did anyone who advocates getting ut of the car actually see how fast the nice man with the crowbar moved? If a person so much as opened the door, they would have found a very large dent in their head before they could even get their feet on the ground.

The car is litterally a suit of armor, armor slows you down and limits mobility, but it also absorbs blows and keeps you alive. Why get caught vulnerable while taking the armor off, or why take it off at all?
 
Why get caught vulnerable while taking the armor off, or why take it off at all?


Easy.


You step out of the vehicle with your .45 held behind you. When you confront him and he raises his crowbar in a fit of rage you EMPTY your stuff while falling to the ground on your back. This does two things....

One...It gives you a defensive position from which to reload if he is still up, with your legs out front to absorb any possible blows...

Two... All the witnesses will testify in court that you appeared to be hit, thus using the criteria of "fearing for your life" would be very easy to prove.

And three...

you would have removed him from society, and although we all hear that some people NEED to be killed to protect society...

...it is a sad fact.
:what:
 
You step out of the vehicle with your .45 held behind you. When you confront him and he raises his crowbar

Someone has an overblown sense of his own dominance of the situation.

Assuming you even get out of the car "with .45 held behind" without getting your skull smashed in, once he starts moving his crowbar while standing inches from you, you're done - first move wins. Time his movements, then time your own - who gets smashed first?

Dude: this guy is out to kill you if you resist. He is crazy, armed, and moving fast.

Don't fall for the "I shall stand my ground, reason with the barbarian, and put him in his place if he attempts harm" BS. The attack has already begun.
 
Would I feel fear or anger? Unlikely for me. It interferes with my ability to negotiate the situation. I would best describe my feelings as disgust. Disgust that this person would force me into shooting him. I draw the line (already explained) and wait for it to be crossed. I am defending my SELF. There's plenty of time for anger and fear after the situation is resolved.
 
For the people who advocate ramming, what is the difference between running him over and shooting him? I dont see any.

As it was explained in my CCW class, exactly none. If the situation warrants the use of deadly force, what you use to inflict that force is irrelevant. Screw driver, hammer, car, gun - it's all the same. If you are justified in using deadly force it is OK, if not, it isn't - no matter what you use.

The car is a deadly weapon if you use it to ram him. If you are not in a situation that would allow you to shoot him you are not in a situation that would allow you to ram him. The only benefit would be that if you were not in a situation that warranted deadly force you could claim you "accidentally" ran him over while trying to escape. The cop, DA, or jury might "believe" that (wink, wink), or then again they may not. If they don't, you are in just as much sh*t as you would have been had you shot him.
 
Did anyone who advocates getting ut of the car actually see how fast the nice man with the crowbar moved? If a person so much as opened the door, they would have found a very large dent in their head before they could even get their feet on the ground.

Obviously there is a certain amount of judgement in the situation. Yes, if he is at the driver's side getting out of the car would be a serious mistake. But when he went around to the passenger's rear window and smashed that that would be the opportunity to get out, again depending on how fast you thought you could do it.
The "armor" of a car, even an armored car, buys you time, measured in seconds usually, to do something. A car trapped in traffic like that one was is not armor but an impediment to response.

Again, on reflection the situation meets all the demands of a "good shoot." The next question is how to do so responsibly, without endangering others.
I am astounded at those who either would not shoot if they were in the car or even if they were in the car next to it. (I would add the no-shoot crowd is probably the Libertarians, but thats another topic) If CCW was not made for situations like that, what were they made for? The fact that the person in the car was able finally to get away is irrelevant--just like the cop who shoots the guy in a dark alley and then discovers the guy was only going to pull out ID.
 
I think Red Rook nails it.......

I can't see the video anymore, but from the descriptions a very similar incident of road rage happened within the last month right here in the Detroit area.

Guy gets cut off, guy pulls up behind car and starts honking for him to pull over. He pulls over and the guy and two girls get out....guy is carrying tire iron and girls are carrying other implements.

Guy (39 yr old) smashes passenger window with tire Iron...driver pulls pistol out and shoots guy in the head. Two girls now wonder where they are going to get their nookie tonight.

No charges filed against the shooter. (He was a probation officer if my memory serves)

BTW: Running him over with the car is the LAST thing you would want to do....that is unless you're into handing your paycheck over to him in his wheelchair for the rest of your life.
 
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Local news this morning said the tape was a total fake, and that the driver of the PT Cruiser was in on it. That's why he only hit one car - I don't think he'd last too long doing that to random cars. :)
 
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