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Crazy crackhead video

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Tall Man, Oct 14, 2004.

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  1. Sylvilagus Aquaticus

    Sylvilagus Aquaticus Member

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    I know what I'd do if it were my car and it happened at the intersection of Commerce and Houston in Dallas.

    They'd have to take my statement.

    They'd have to get the perps statement with a squeegee and sponge.

    Regards,
    Rabbit.

    Regards,
    Rabbit.
     
  2. Valkman

    Valkman Member

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    This would have been a very dangerous place to shoot - I mean there's people everywhere.

    Even if everyone agrees to shoot there are still a couple of big problems here. So the guy is on the drivers side and you whip out your piece and (since most shots miss in these things) OOPS kill the woman in the next car over. Now you really have some big problems! Then you kill the guy and now his family has their way with you in civil court. I don't have tens of thousands of dollars to defend myself from the DA and in civil court, do you?

    Believe me, I would have no problem shooting in that case. I'd have no problem shooting the crackhead either, but the DA probably would.
     
  3. ilcylic

    ilcylic Member

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    I can't wait to move back out of Vegas.

    If this happened back in Albuquerque, there would be no question about it being a good shoot, unless you missed.

    -Ogre
     
  4. Average Guy

    Average Guy Member

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    I don't know what he's sayin'. But seriously...

    I gotta go with DocZinn here. Pure speculation from outside LV. Anyway, I just ran this by my Personal Police Consultant. Her quickie analysis was that once the BG had broken the driver's window, the BG could reach the driver and then the driver would be OK to shoot.

    On the other hand, she said that there's more leeway if she'd just run over the guy "while trying to get away." The magic words: "He moved."

    I watched the 92 LA riots from the very beginning and it was amazing to see people pull up to that intersection at Florence and Normandie and NOT just race away when they got pelted and punched. I kept thinking, "What's wrong with those people?" But I understand the driver's initial paralysis because I had one of those flip-off/cut-off situations happen to me when I was 17 or so, and wayyy unaware. Believe me, I've solved and resolved that scenario many times since then. It takes time just to comprehend that "Gee, there's someone who's trying to beat up my car. Huh? That's not right..." And once you're aware there's a problem, now you need a solution. And if you've never thought about anything like it before, you're way behind the power curve.

    Remember, kids: Search, Predict, Act (and don't forget your after-action analysis) :D
     
  5. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    What is wrong with stepping out of your car and telling him to stop and get away. If he then chose to approach you with the crow bar, you don't have much time to react. Bang bang bang. I don't think it would be unreasonable t get out of your car and ask the guy to stop and the video is right there to back up everything you do.

    The real question is what would have yuo done with your CCW if you were in your car witnessing this happen to the PT Cruiser? Probably just call the cops on my cell phone.
     
  6. dustind

    dustind Member

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    From standing still he could have hit her in under a second without warning. By the time he "concentrated his efforts" on her she would be dead and unable to respond in any fashion. One hit to the noggin and it is lights out.
    Actually any reasonable person should have saw the guy coming, leaped out of the window and done some super ninja move disarming him in a split second without having caused the slightest discomfort. Then held him until the police arrived. :D

    Ok, seriously. If someone came and hit your vehicle, would you have immediately driven forward and away? I seriously doubt it. I doubt almost anyone, including people with training would have done any better than she did.

    To anyone who thinks she could have exited the vehicle and ran: Have you ever tried to jump out of a vehicle that was in gear while wearing your seatbelt? Try it some time in a large empty area. I do it every year while road hunting and I have my routine down to a science. I would not have tried to run on foot.
     
  7. cthulhu138

    cthulhu138 Member

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    I'd suppose most folks in that situation would be busy staring at the car in front of them and the light above them, wondering when it was time to go. Not seeing the fellow with the crowbar except as a flash in the mirror as he came behind them. I'd assume the first strike of the crowbar would be taken as an accident too. So, all in all, that old girl did pretty average.

    Having had an angry driver get out of his car and head for my car before, I'd probably do what I did last time, and just haul ass. If you can't haul ass, then you do what you can to steer clear of the crowbar, namely getting into the middle of the car. That's when you can start thinking about pointing guns and stuff. If you can just keep a mindset to take any available cover in a bad situation, you'll usually get a little extra thinkin time. And thinking time is what can keep you out of jail. If there's no thinking time, you just default to your level of training.

    Run fast like young bunny.
     
  8. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    My condolences to all of you that live in jurisdictions where you have to take almost extraordinary measures to ensure that you are acting in self defense.

    However, even in light of these circumstances, I am seeing something common in all of these replies.

    This is not meant as a flame, but I am not too sure that many of you have ever witnessed--first hand--or been subjected to--first hand--the savagery of an all out attack on the street.

    This crackhead had in his possession a deadly weapon, that is capable of pulping your brains in a split second. That justifies deadly force.

    If you do attempt to block the iron, your arm will in all likelihood be maimed to the extent that you will NEVER be able to use it normally again. That--in most jurisdictions--is also justification for deadly force.

    Those who suggested the three-point turn--with all respect, get real. What this guy is doing is a direct assault on the vehicle in which you are riding. This is, in and of itself, not a justification for deadly force. But the guy's demeanor is telling you that in all likelihood, you are next in line for his undivided attention.

    And get out of the car? Please. Folks like that are the closest live example to what it termed as "ninja-like quickness". You would not be able to get fully out of the car before this person could be on you, taking your life with that crowbar or tire iron.

    And, don't even think about running. This guy will be on you before you take two steps.

    This post is not meant as a flame toward anyone. But please understand that (again, with all respect) if you have never seen the speed in which you can lose your life at the hands of one of these animals, you will in all likelihood not understand why deadly force is almost a necessity in these circumstances.

    Now, in these cases, there is also a saving grace, believe it or not. Street urchins like this guy have a remarkably well developed sense of self-preservation.

    Thus, when the guy finds himself staring at the muzzle of your legally carried firearm, in all likelihood, he will take off like a rocket.

    However, there is also the chance that, considering the great possibility of his being on drugs, that it will enrage him to come directly after you.

    So, it's time for a gut check, folks.

    I am aware that there are lots of folks who treat themselves to the latest ubertactical handguns, in Kydex, leather or the holster of the day. These folks practice, and practice incessantly until they are capable of amazing feats of marksmanship and speed--at the range.

    Reluctance to shoot someone is a great credit to the integrity and humanity of most people. But please, for your sake, evaluate coldly and seriously if you are able to take human life. Please consider this in solitude, with lots of reflection and thought.

    Please realize that when the rubber meets the road, you won't have ANY time for self reflection. You will have to act.

    You will have to draw that ubertactical firearm, you will have to aim it, and you will have to fire upon another human being, with lethal intent.

    And yes, you will probably have to go to trial. Yes, you will spend money on your defense. Yes, you will probably go into debt.

    The alternative is to have your brains beaten out on the street; to fall victim to the robber's bullet, fists or feet, or perhaps to stumble forward, trying to hold your intestines into your body cavity because someone just took a swipe across your gut with a straight razor or knife. In your last moments of consciousness, possibly of life, you will hear your cry of pain and terror and wish desperately that you were somewhere, ANYWHERE, but where you are at that time.

    There is, to me, no sound on earth that is as heartwrenching or as chilling as the wail of a soul breathing their last breath, if their life is being taken by force.

    And, may merciful God help you if your family is with you! Especially your wives or your children--or both!! Some of you have NO concept of the horror that can befall them if the threat comes through you.

    If you are that worried about the legality of the act, please, PLEASE contact your local prosecutor. Show them the clip from this thread, and ask them if you were in the car, would deadly force have been justified. I'll bet I know what the answer will be.

    And, lest I impeach myself, DON'T just take the word of the cop you know, or don't know. The prosecutor is the one who will determine if you will go to trial, or appear before a grand jury.

    Stay safe out there, folks.
     
  9. Average Guy

    Average Guy Member

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    Tough act to follow, Powderman. Wow.

    Um...everything? :D (I keed.) But you've just traded your cover for...what, exactly?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the first question out of the DA's mouth is going to be "Why didn't you leave when you had the chance?" I think this is a tricky scenario because although you're in effect stuck in a little metal box with nowhere to go, that little metal box itself is capable of moving.
     
  10. OF

    OF Member

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    Thank you for your two lucid and pointed posts, Powderman.

    To those in LV saying that you'd be charged with murder for shooting this guy, I would love to see some evidence of similar situations (if that's possible) that resulted in charges of murder.

    I'm having a hard time believing that if the cops found these two women (I believe you can hear them on the tape) in the beat-to-snot car with that cracked up waste of life dead on the ground outside and the video showing him just prior they would sink so low as to even arrest them. Maybe I'm wrong, I'd love to see some cases to the point.

    - Gabe

    PS: Pardon me for my earlier offensive Rambo-esque use of the product number for my carry ammo and brandname of my pistol. It was a moment of blood-thirsty insanity. What was I thinking...
     
  11. OF

    OF Member

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    I just watched it again. Are you kidding me? The guy was talking about murders he's done in the past just before assaulting these people. If you listen, it even sounds like someone yells "mommy!" from inside the car...

    If this isn't justified use of deadly force, I don't know what is.

    - Gabe
     
  12. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    I just thought of another effective move. Very hard to think of until you are arm chair quarterbacking, but something to remember. As the guy is continuing to beat the crap out of your car, you have enough space to back up and move forward quite a bit. What would have been cool is if the person would have cranked their wheel hard left, waited for Diversity to come around next to the front right bumper. With the car in reverse, hit the gas hard, bringing the nose suddenly into the side of him, and knocking him over rather hard. You can use the force of your car without having the mess and damage of flipping him up onto your hood as you ram him.

    In hindsight, I think I would have most certainly run him over if he had stepped in front or behind my vehicle. Maybe not drive over him, but at least rammed him good. This is the reason I also carry a good can of OC in my car too.
     
  13. JamisJockey

    JamisJockey member

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    I'm sorry but I stand by my original assessment. The driver passed up on any opportunity to get out of dodge. When the attacker was on the passenger side, initiating the attack. Now, if there actually isn't room to get out as it appears to me in the video, then its a good shoot immediately.
    Like I said, shooting in that situation even as I called it
    probably would be a good shoot, but if you don't meet the moral and legal obligation to descelate the situation immediatley then you might be liable.
    As for executing a turn out of that spot...those who are naysayers probably haven't driven a car to the edge of its performance abilities and back.
     
  14. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Keep in mind its a freakin' PT Cruiser ... heck, my Welsh Corgi has more horsepower then a PT Cruiser :p
     
  15. no_morelipfrom_you

    no_morelipfrom_you Member

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    As for those asking what he was said, here's the gist:

    I'm a bad man
    I'm a gangsta
    I've been here for x years
    I'm not afraid of anybody and
    I will mess up ANY one of these mofos out here.
    Here let me show you.
     
  16. JamisJockey

    JamisJockey member

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    I delivered pizzas in a Chevy Chevette for almost a year, and owned it for almost 4. Compared to that little car, a PT cruiser might as well be a supercharged nitrous boosted hummer. :neener:
    And I was put in a few tight driving situations while in that car, back when pizza joints used to gaurantee (sp) 30 minutes or its free....
     
  17. OF

    OF Member

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    I'm a little suprised that the after-action critique here is lacking in respect for the sheer level of panic in the victim. What you have here is likely a soccer mom sheeple with her kids in the car who thinks she is going to be bludgeoned to death at any moment. Life is existing for her in a moment-to-moment time-warp haze of sheer terror and frozen panic. She is likely sitting in a puddle of her own urine, as are her children. Her life experience with 'tactical driving' is most probably limited to an unsafe lane change or two on the way to the shopping mall. She has most likely never been in a situation where she was in fear for her life or faced real aggression and very possibly has never given so much as a moments thought to what she would do if assaulted.

    Look at what the car is doing: back and forth, back and forth. She's barely hanging on to reality. It's obviously all she can do to keep her hands on the wheel and the car in gear. And she's supposed to be evaluating the situation dispassionately and seeking an 'out'? Not all the world lives in Cond. Yellow. A fraction of a percent.

    If this woman had a firearm available, and shot this POS, I cannot imagine in a million years her being arrested for it, let alone charged, let alone convicted. I can hear the DA's opening statement: "If you examine the video, you can clearly see that Susan had an escape angle available to her here. When the subject moved around to the drivers side, she clearly could have maneuvered out the opening and waited for her turn to enter traffic, after properly singnaling her intent by engaging her turn signal, of course."

    :barf:

    - Gabe
     
  18. OF

    OF Member

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    Here's a taste of the scumbag's pre-assault soliliquy:

    "I been gang-bangin', killin', stealin', robbin MF'ers. Sellin' crack wit my hoe's in the back. I don't give a F about nobody's MF'ers. At any given moment I can go out there and F up any-goddamn-body of these MF'ers..."

    Blah blah blah. Metro (cops) can't get me off this corner...blah blah blah.

    - Gabe
     
  19. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    And that is the sum total of the incident--at least from the victim's point of view.

    With regard to driving out of the situation--well, that would definitely be an option IF the vehicle has any room to maneuver.

    Bear in mind, though, that pursuit/evasion driving is like any other skill--it is learned through practice and repetition. It has been said that it takes an average of 3,000 repititions of a movement to commit it to muscle memory--the groove where you will do something automatically without conscious thought.

    Yes, a jury will take into account your level of training and experience--or the lack thereof.
     
  20. molonlabe

    molonlabe Member

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    If I was in the car the only thing you would have heard was thump...thump...................thump...thump. And maybe Switch gears thump...thump...................thump...thump switch gears thump...thump...................thump...thump
     
  21. ctdonath

    ctdonath Member

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    Finally watched it.

    Looks real enough: kinda "cool" idea to go interview a thug, he gets hyped up on the attention, wants to prove his toughness, grabs tire iron conveniently left nearby (easily accessable in his turf with plausable deniability), and proceeds to demonstrate how cold/tough he is.

    Anyone arguing "don't shoot" is a fool.

    Car occupants are stuck in a metal box. Mobility is limited by tight quarters and seat belts (presumably worn). At least two windows have been completely smashed in, spraying broken glass; occupants may very well be cut and bleeding already. Distance between face & crowbar closes to inches frequently during attack.

    If they get out, they are exposed to a strong, fast, armed, violent man - someone at the top of any threat continuum. If unarmed, victims only have speed and cover at their disposal - easily thwarted by attacker. If moderately armed (spray, club), attacker will likely exert dominance - we cannot seriously expect victims to win this round. The "get out and tell him off" comment is preposterous.

    Driving away is barely an option: vehicle is blocked by traffic & obstacles on all sides. Victims obviously attempted to repeatedly, but were blocked. Aggressive evasion would at minimum cause significant property damage, and would likely cause bodily harm to others in surrounding vehicles. Drivers are deeply trained to NEVER deliberately contact another vehicle, so don't expect the driver to do otherwise under such stress.

    Trapped & vulnerable, deadly weapon swinging within inches (recall the Teuller Drill), lack of harmful contact only due to good graces of violent madman ... ability (strong, fast, armed), opportunity (close, attack is happening), jeopardy (crowbar swinging within inches, glass shards flying, no sane reason why) - draw & fire. Stop him NOW. Somehow I don't think the police would object...
     
  22. citizen

    citizen Member

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    Guys, I live there (LV) and my former job required me to traverse that intersection frequently; at night. He (it!-animal) seems familiar, and a regular inhabitant of that territorial domain. I've seen them staked out on their individual corners, often approaching and negotiating with others.....
    That lane, in that direction, at that intersection is amongst the WORST in town to traverse....
    Now that everone has opined sufficiently, the only real point to ponder is whether there was any follow-up. I've never seen any info, regarding the perp or the victim......when this occurred ('98? '01? '03?????), or even IF a police or damage report was filed. THAT is where the resolution and correct analysis of this event resides.
    As for using deadly force, it's still an open question.....Too many variables locally to make a definitive conclusion. Interesting entertainment, and perhaps not as rare as we'd like; but that's it. We'll probably never learn of the conclusion here, but feel free to speculate to your heart's content.

    (I'm refraining from relating my own experiences locally; they have nothing to do with THIS event; and each situation MUST be weighed individually, legally..)
     
  23. S Roper

    S Roper Member

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    Here's a transcript as near as I can figure:

    "Hey you know I’ve been on this mofo. street for ten mofo. years strong, you know what I’m sayin’?. [Unintelligible] L.A. rollin’ six down this mofo. I’ve been gangbangin’ killin’ stealin’, [unintelligible] mofo. Sellin’ crack at my hos in the back. I don’t give a f. ‘bout nobody’s mofo. At any given moment I can g.d f. up any g.d. body’s mofo! You understand what I’m sayin’? I have mofo. [unintelligible], n., and they started, we’ll take your mofo. [unintelligible] if they wanted to. It’s straight gang town, this mofo.! I’ve been on the corner for years, n; selling all kinds of mofo. dope on this b. Know what I’m sayin’? All these mofo. hos out here saying they’re bringin’ down this mofo.: this is my g.d. corner! This is my mofo. corner for ten g.d. years! Metro can’t keep me out of this mofo. corner, n.! Metro can’t even keep me out of this corner, nobody can! And they know I can do any g.d. mofo thing on this mofo.! Let me show your a. up!"
     
  24. S Roper

    S Roper Member

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    In high school my friend and I did a few "art" films. In one of them we "interviewed" a homeless guy who really just ranted about the police. He was very different from the individual in this video, but I think it's very likely that this wasn't staged. Most likely it was a young cameraman looking for "interesting" folks to interview.
     
  25. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    OK. I've got a question for LEOS and/or LV residents. How about running this type of criminal out of town? If you have habitual crackheads/street people/panhandlers/thugs hanging around why can't you simple put them on a bus to somewhere else? I lived in Irvine (Orange County) California for awhile, and the cops there don't put up with this crap. If some derelict even drives through that town, they get stopped and written up for any possible violation and are shown the city limits. As a result, you don't see human trash on the streets. If I were police chief, I'd give them $20 and put them on a Greyhound bus to San Francisco or some other liberal craphole.
     
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