What Caliber For Cougar?...Surprise!

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rainbowbob

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Monday, August 24, 2009

College student killed cougar that may have chased bikers on trail
By Rachel Schleif

The Wenatchee World

LEAVENWORTH — Esmerelda the hog was saved from an attacking cougar Aug. 15 by a 20-year-old man shooting a broken .22-caliber rifle from 100 yards.

Hayden Winkler, in his boxers, had just sat down with a cup of coffee, when he heard the pig's screams around 8 a.m.

An hour before, he had been feeding the cows, pigs and chickens on Gibbs Organic Farm, near the Freund Canyon trailhead — and not far from where mountain bikers had recently reported being chased by a mountain lion.

A college student from Colorado, Winkler spent the past three months as an apprentice in sustainable farming. His pants were soaked from the morning dew and irrigation, so he left them outside.

Winkler saw through a sliding-glass door the 200-pound cat attacking Esmerelda in an alfalfa field, about 100 yards away.

The cougar had dragged the 1-year-old pig out of its pen and chased it more than a football field's length, Winkler said.

He grabbed a rifle they typically use to scare birds from the cherry orchard. The stock was broken, so he steadied the gun on a plastic box. He cracked the door open and took aim.

"I was nervous. My hands were shaking," said Winkler, who says he's not a skilled shooter. "I thought if I hit the pig, it would be put out of its misery. I aimed for the cat's head so if I hit it, it wouldn't suffer either."

Winkler fired. The cougar jumped three feet in the air, he said. The pig ran toward an orchard next to the kitchen. Winkler reloaded the gun, but when he looked up, the cat was gone.

He called his boss, Ivan Gibbs, who told him about another .22 in the pottery barn, a few dozen feet from the kitchen. Winkler carefully stepped outside.

A co-worker pulling vegetables in the garden saw Winkler walking out of the barn, still in his underwear, with a rifle in each hand.

"She said, 'What are you doing?' " Winkler said, slowly emphasizing each word. He explained the situation, and they drove Winkler's Toyota Yaris around the orchard, looking for the cougar.

Cougarless, they put the pigs away and carried guns whenever they had to work outside. Winkler found the cougar later that evening, shot through the head.

Winkler called the state Department of Fish and Wildlife, which took away the cougar's body last Monday.

Rich Beausoleil, bear and cougar specialist for Fish and Wildlife, said it was a 2- to 3-year-old male. It had been dead too long to determine whether it was sick or hungry.

He suspects it was the same cougar that chased at least five mountain bikers on the Freund Canyon Trail during the past two weeks. He said the department had decided the cat had to be killed if it turned up.

"I was disappointed about what had to happen to this beautiful animal," Winkler said. "But, it had to be done."

On Thursday, Esmerelda rooted for vegetables and rolled in mud in her pen. The attack left a small tooth mark on her cheek and a scratch on her side.

Copyright © The Seattle Times Company
 
Come on, everyone nows that the only thing you can kill with a .22 is paper and they're totally worthless in a defense situation:neener:

Maybe shooting in his underwear gave the bullet super powers or something :D

X
 
The guy was probably some smelly hippie who, a few months ago, never would have thought of himself as someone who would shoot "a beautiful animal."

It's amazing what protecting your crops and stock -- or pets -- can do, to change that attitude.
 
Reminds me of the time my Jack Russell's got into it with a couple of Copperheads around one of our ponds out in the country. The older dog saw the larger snake swimming to the other side of the pond, about 75 feet away. It was like the little chicken guy on the Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. It was like she whipped out a slide rule in her head, made a couple of quick calculations, and ran to where the snake was headed and waited for him.

I picked up a rock about half the size of a brick, and chunked it about 30 feet toward the snake. It hit the darned thing right on the head! It sunk. The poor dog was confused. Had it been a big red barn instead, I doubt I could have hit it.

Back to the story...

If a cougar had been chasing hikers or bikers or whatever, I doubt he was actually trying to kill them. A cougar determined to kill a human on a speeding bicycle is NOT a good combination!

-Matt
 
Maybe it is the truth, or maybe that is the official version because killing cougars outside of defense or legal hunting is illegal.

I live in a rural area where it is not uncommon for farmers or ranchers to go out of thier way to track down and kill cougars seen as posing a threat to thier livestock, even though it is against the law in my state.
Initially several local farmers dealt with them the official way, notifying the Fish and Game which became public record, resulting in many threats and lawsuits on the behalf of animal rights activists. Even when they merely reported an animal was killing livestock and being a menace, and had not even shot it. The threats would begin to arrive that if anything happened to that animal...
Many of the farmers could never afford to legally defend themselves against the animal rights activists, even if they were just complying with the law. So defending themselves against a lawsuit even if they did nothing wrong could mean they still lose thier assets, thier land and thier lifestyle.

So they are simply shot or poisoned and disposed of now. There is still many cougars, and still problems, the incidents simply don't make the news anymore because they never officially happen.


The same struggle existed with the wolves, and the Grizzly Bears, which is why they went extinct in most of thier former range.

(The same struggle currently exists in most of Africa, which is why most African predators are being exterminated, except where high priced legal hunting by foreigners results in profits that cause the locals to accept losses for greater gains.)



Now most locations are not as bad as California, which essentially outlaws killing cougars altogether, but they still have strict hunting requirements.
If farmers have trouble with an animal and track it down and kill it they are breaking the law. But that is exactly what often happens.
That is not always the official report though.

Even by thier own account the two of them grabbed thier guns and went looking for the animal after the incident. Was that before or after it got a bullet in the head? We may never know.


A treed cougar is not hard to kill, and many have been taken with .22s especially .22Magnums.
The animal simply sits there, expecting to be safe like it would be from any other creature high in the tree. But humans are not any other animal, and it just becomes a stationary target within 20 yards.
Even Fish and Game and other authorities generally rely on that hunting method, but use dogs to track and tree them.



It actually sounds like the cat was simply playing cat and mouse with the pig if that even happened. Cougars hunt deer and a 200 pound animal could kill a 1 year old pig without any effort, unless it was just toying with it as a plaything.
 
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Reminds me of the time my Jack Russell's got into it with a couple of Copperheads around one of our ponds out in the country. The older dog saw the larger snake swimming to the other side of the pond, about 75 feet away. It was like the little chicken guy on the Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. It was like she whipped out a slide rule in her head, made a couple of quick calculations, and ran to where the snake was headed and waited for him.

I picked up a rock about half the size of a brick, and chunked it about 30 feet toward the snake. It hit the darned thing right on the head! It sunk. The poor dog was confused. Had it been a big red barn instead, I doubt I could have hit it.

Back to the story...

If a cougar had been chasing hikers or bikers or whatever, I doubt he was actually trying to kill them. A cougar determined to kill a human on a speeding bicycle is NOT a good combination!

-Matt
Runners and bikes trigger a prey response in big cats to chase. Makes them targets in natural areas where most people usually wouldnt be.
 
From the article - "Winkler saw through a sliding-glass door the 200-pound cat ..."


Later it says the Mountain Lion was two or three years old.
"Rich Beausoleil, bear and cougar specialist for Fish and Wildlife, said it was a 2- to 3-year-old male. "


Two hundred pounds???? Huh uh.

No Mountain lion weighs 200 pounds when it is only two or three years old.

And very, very few Mountain lions ever reach 200 pounds.

Don't know what is correct in the article, but one statement contradicts the other.

L.W.
 
You DID just use Wikipedia as a reference... I can go edit that to say that cougars are the size of field mice.
 
I don't want to say that google is wrong but some good friends of mine guide for cougar in idaho and when I asked them about "200 lb cats" they laughed at me and said only in the zoo do they get that big. I would like to see a pic of this 200lb cat. But it was still a hell of a shot and its one less cougar to chase the bikers.
 
How big they are depends on thier environment and available food, and not just of the individual, but of its ancestors.

100 years ago most men in the united states weighed under 150 pounds, and had since the founding of the nation. IN the 1870s the average weight of a man was just under 130 pounds, and females weighed even less.
With 120-160 being a common range of males up until the last couple decades and someplace in between the average. Official statistics show this, from any employer or industry that kept records, to physicals done by the military on new recruits or cadets.

Today the average is significantly north of that.

Likewise a cat family that has lived in remote Canada or Alaska for generations with plentiful large game averages a much higher weight. While those that chase small animals and live in Mexico tend to average a much lower weight. (Though the largest on record was an Arizona cougar.)
Including both in the same study to arrive at an average would be misleading when applied to other geographies, yet that is what is done to arrive at average for the species.
Cougars barely making a living while coexisting in areas with a large human population tend to be smaller because of the added pressures of staying hidden from humans, while hunting a lower population of large prey.

So what is really important is the average weight of cougars in that region of Washington state.

200 pounds does sound larger than it should be.
 
if you did edit wiki to post that cougars are the size of mice,they would delete it in less than an hour.

wiki usually nots when a reference is missing,and provide links to sources.

don't be silly.
 
What Caliber For Cougar?...Surprise!

How about What Vehicle For tracking wounded Cougar?...Surprise!... seriously, a Toyota Yaris?? :rolleyes:

I'm wondering how far said cougar got after being "shot through the head". And wondering if the 22 actually penetrated the skull.
 
So what is really important is the average weight of cougars in that region of Washington state.

Actually, what is "really important" is that an inexperienced shooter reportedly killed a cougar with one head-shot from a broken .22 at 100 yards.

Who gives a crap if it was 200 lbs or the size of a field mouse?
 
Actually, what is "really important" is that an inexperienced shooter reportedly killed a cougar with one head-shot from a broken .22 at 100 yards.

And I mentioned why I find that report as likely to be untrue as it is to be true in my other post.

A farmer with livestock, using a "broken" stocked (a handy shortened grip longarm perhaps below 26" overall length with a Bubba stock?) ".22" (.22LR, .22Magnum, .220 Swift, .22-250 Remington, .223 etc etc?)
The ".22" mentioned by this news reporter could be almost anything in the .22 range. Killing anything in Washington with a .220 Swift, also a ".22" would certainly not be a feat.

They grabbed thier guns, and went out searching for the cat, after it ran away, after receiving the alleged headshot, and then when it was finally reported to officials it had been dead so long they could not even tell if it had been sick?
It takes a long time before there is so much decomposition they cannot even check the brain for rabies.
Speaking of rabies, if the cat was acting strange they really should quarantine that pig until the threat of it developing rabies has passed.


The story has so many holes, or just poor reporting that it is virtually meaningless. A cat was killed by what the reporter cites as a ".22", the same reporter that cites a big round number like 200 lb for the animal's weight. It was killed by someone that certainly has motivation for killing anything a threat to thier animals and making up a fanciful tale about it and covering up thier illegal pro-active behavior. Whether that is what happened or not.
The combination of unbelievable reporting, someone taking a headshot from over 100 yards without experience on an animal moving around in mid attack, and the "broken" (more likely modified by Bubba to be smaller and handy around the farm) stocked rifle all just makes for a story that is not factual enough to rely on.
 
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...a story that is not factual enough to rely on.

You make good points as to the potential contradictions in this story, and I wouldn't bet a dollar that this (or any other "news" story) is 100% (or even 50%) accurate.

But I did think it was amusing, nonetheless.
 
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