Bushmaster is up to something...

.45&TKD, it means the charging handle doesn't go back every shot, or rather NON-reciprocating means that. Reciprocating means it does.

Think AK vs AR, the AR's DOESN'T, thankfully, might be painful if it did. The AK's on the other hand, is firmly attached to the bolt, so when the bolt moves it moves.

The AR has a non-reciprocating charging handle.

The AK has a reciprocating charging handle.

So the non-reciprocating charging handle is better? Why?

What does that mean, exactly?

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Means it moves when you fire the gun instead of staying locked in place like an AR does.

Reciprocating handles can hit you or hang up on your surroundings.

On the flip side the reciprocating bolts are connected very solidly to the bolt, giving leverage if you need to stomp on something to move a stuck bolt forward or backwards.

With a non recip handle you really can only pull the bolt in one direction.

If you have big hands, or a bad grip, it won't lead to you getting your fingers hurt and the gun jammed up.

As for on an AR, it keeps the charging handle from hitting your face haha.

Really, in my own opinion, neither one is 'better', I prefer non-reciprocating ones also, but that's just it, an opinion.

why is the ACR so expensive!?

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You got me. When you start thinking of all the things you could build/buy with $2,700 and comparing it to the ACR, it doesn't look good for the ACR.

Again from AR15.com; but a dealer there talked to Bushmaster and got quoted a wholesale price of $2,100 for the basic model Can you imagine that? $2,100 dealer for a basic 5.56mm semi-automatic rifle with no extra features from any manufacturer?

The only thing I can think of is that Bushmaster isn't capable of full production and doesn't want to create demand it can't meet, so they jacked the price way up for the "gotta have it" crowd that pays $5,000 to be the first kid on the block with an HK416 upper or a Collector's Edition FN SCAR. However, the price is so high that even if they dropped an entire AR15 from the price, it would still be in the $1,800 range for the basic model.

It seems to me that the problem with that kind of strategy is that even if you do lower the price dramatically later, you've already irritated a bunch of customers, caused them to spend the money elsewhere, and the few people who did buy your product at $2,700 are going to be really irate - especially if it has a few bugs in it as new rifles are occasionally know to do.

I also think that Bushmaster missed a big sea change in the black rifle market in the past year. There are a lot of unsold AR15s out there and a lot more used ones available. Now is not really the time for a premium priced rifle (especially a premium priced rifle with Wal Mart features).

ACR has a non-reciprocating charging handle.

FWIW, the AK has a reciprocating handle, as does the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14. In a pinch, a reciprocating charging handle can also serve as a forward assist. Because the M16 has a non-reciprocating charging handle, it required a forward assist in the even the bold does not fully seat.

Now, the argument about the utility of a forward assist ios another matter entirely.

BTW, yes I meant M193. Typo.

If the MSRP of $2680 is correct, I agree they won't sell many. It should be noted the Sig556, when introduced was selling (or not selling) for around $2600 in 2007.

Finally, with respect to M193 and SS109 (M855) and twist, FN did experimentation on dispersion with the following result:



A well know phenomenon, which is why most manufacturers use 1:9 twist barrels. The 1:7 military twist was selected in order to stabilize M856 tracer. If you are primarily shooting milsurp ammo and not shooting tracer, there is no need for a 1:7 twist barrel unless you are shooting bullets heavier than 65 or so gns (depending on length of projectile)

It seems to me that the problem with that kind of strategy is that even if you do lower the price dramatically later, you've already irritated a bunch of customers, caused them to spend the money elsewhere,

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Yo!

Someone needs to remind both FN and Remington/Bushmaster/Cerberus that molded receivers* and hammer forged barrels are CHEAPER to make than milled aluminum forgings and button rifled barrels. Oh, they may be better, at least in some cases and for some uses, but better can also be cheaper. (* I know that the SCAR and ACR each have one aluminum receiver-half, but the other is molded plastic.) It might be different if either rifle was a revolutionary change (like Kel-Tec's RFB) from any thing previously available, but neither is - they are both incrementally better, perhaps, than already available piston guns (XCR) and piston AR conversions (POF, Ruger, many others). To me that only justifies an incremental price increase.

How could Bushmaster get the "next generation", modern, plastic 5.56 rifle, in 21'st century, to weight 8.2lbs empty without magazine? The .308 HeavySCAR is lighter than that.

Probabily the first rifle to match XCR in features and price will be the CZ S805.

A well know phenomenon, which is why most manufacturers use 1:9 twist barrels.

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You missed my point, which isn't that there is no dispersion; but that the dispersion as a practical matter is meaningless. Most shooters are not capable of noticing it and the ones who are capable of noticing it, aren't shooting 55gr M193.

Check out this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=394748
Sierra BlitzKing 55gr out of a 1:7.7 twist Krieger barrel - 10 rounds into 0.547" at 100yds. If that is the "dispersed" result, then:

1. How many people can shoot well enough to appreciate the better results provided by a 1:9?
2. Exactly what is the practical difference in terms of downrange accuracy between 0.547" and the best result a 1:9 barrel would achieve?

The 1:7 military twist was selected in order to stabilize M856 tracer. If you are primarily shooting milsurp ammo and not shooting tracer, there is no need for a 1:7 twist barrel unless you are shooting bullets heavier than 65 or so gns (depending on length of projectile)

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Exactly. With a 1:9 twist, you are no longer able to reliably shoot the 75gr Hornady Match, the 77gr Sierra Match Kings, even the Berger 73gr doesn't always do well in 1:9s. These rounds are all popular for match use, especially for longer distances. When you get into self-defense use, you are also giving up the Hornady 75gr TAP, the Mk262 77gr, the Barnes 70gr TSX and basically all the top performers in .223.

These are differences that the average shooter CAN appreciate when they shoot.

How could Bushmaster get the "next generation", modern, plastic 5.56 rifle, in 21'st century, to weight 8.2lbs empty without magazine?

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That one puzzles me too... I mean they are one pound shy of an M14 made out of wood and steel with a 20" barrel on a rifle that is made out of plastic and aluminium with a 16" barrel? And for a basic rifle with no optics, rails, etc. Something is screwy there.

This whole thing is an epic fail of monumental proportions!

At $2,000+ I'll just buy another AR.

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Exactly.

Exactly.

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Or 2.

That's the thing, this isn't just priced at a premium above a standard AR, I could almost get there. But TWICE what a Colt 6940 costs? That's going to be tough.

Will be interesting to see how quick the price comes down. I agree with the guys who are saying it's a move by Bushmaster to keep the demand low until their production can keep up, then the price will drop substantially.

I'm always amazed by the people who will line up to pay those big numbers knowing full well that the price will drop by a great deal in 6-8 months.

is being first REALLY worth that? But hey, it's their money, more power to 'em.

...the people who will line up to pay those big numbers...

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Right. I don't get the whole 'gotta have the first ones @ premium cost' idea. There is absolutely zero logic there. You're not getting anything special at all.

I think it means that firing a round won't knock the charging handle back.

Extremely poor showing by Cerberus or Remington or whoever. For the price of one with an adjustable LOP stock (which I pretty much insist on for any serious use rifle), I could probably buy a SCAR and an ACOG to go on it, especially when they first hit the market. I could definitely buy an XCR or a Noveske AR and an ACOG, or an LMT piston MRP upper and an ACOG and a pistol, etc etc etc. Or a foot locker full of AKs.

Not impressed at all. (And wanted to be.)

You're not getting anything special at all.

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I think it is a bit silly but, you get is that you get it right now. If you don't think that matters to some people then why do people use credit cards buy things they don't need and could saver up to buy? They pay a premium for the right now factor.

Further some people have enough money that they don't really care and will pay more just to have it now.

There are people who like the attention of being the first kid on the block to have a new toy. I wouldn't pay to be that guy but if it makes them happy.

I would be interested in an ACR but only at a price point that is competitive with high end ARs. I'll take a suppressed Noveske with suppressor and optic for some of the figures being thrown around. However, I'll wait to see what the price actually is before I condemn Remington et al.

Forget-about-it

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/19/bushmaster-acr-press-release-with-pricing/

Again - who's the target market?

Not Joe You.

It's the US Government. MSRP means nothing when you buy 5,000 on contract. As pointed out, all the others were at nearly the identical price when released. Sure, you can buy an AR cheaper. The engineering, tooling, and start up costs were paid decades ago. The "engine" of industrial production has been running with nothing more than maintenance and a new tool every now and then.

Start up a completely new design, you start with new tooling, machinery, and engineers running around tweaking things because field reports show "oops" on a detail. It's why cars are so high - we're always paying for new tooling and parts designs every three to five years.

The American consumer got sucked into that bigtime and still hasn't learned their lesson. Ohh, noooo, you have to have a new car or you're a social loser.

Guns aren't about that if your chasing down a government contract based on Current Off The Shelf weapons that will be tested this year.

Connect some dots. If someone wants to plunk down the money to be first, sure, pay the entry fee. But Robinson, Remington, and that crowd don't build combat carbines to sell to Joe You. You won't buy 420,000 of them in eight year contract.

It's how the subject matter experts in the military interpret the value, and deity help us if a Congressman sticks his nose in for his district.

If there is an epic fail, it's in thinking it's about You.

Again - who's the target market? ... It's the US Government.

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Wrong, it (the Bushmaster) is not a select fire rifle, so it is aimed at civilian consumers.

Yep... this is a *Bushmaster* product... the target market for that is certainly not the government.

If there is an epic fail, it's in thinking it's about You.

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Sorry, wrong, but you are right about the rest of it. This rifle is 100% aimed at the civilian market. And I have no doubt they will have people lined up to buy them early on, even at $3000.

And that's exactly why they are doing it, because they know there are people who will pay it. After those people are gone the price will drop substantially. Happens all the time with guns, cars, etc. Some people pay more than sticker to be the first to have a new car design. More power to them if they want to. And more power to a business that takes advantage of them. Capitalism at work.

Don't want to pay that? Wait a while, you won't have to You are absolutely right about the social aspect of this. It's insane.

Unless this rifle obtains the mystical status level of a Rolex or something like that the price will drop before long.

Those guys that are lined up to buy it can test it out for me before the price drops and I can get one. I still dont know how they got the weight up to 8.2pounds! Where is all the weight coming from!

Where is all the weight coming from!

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The buttstock is filled with gold and silver bullion as a counterbalance. The gun's actually quite cheap once you find out how much gold is used as ballast in the buttstock.

That would explain a few things. My brother seems to think that the bolt is where some of the weight is coming from, obviously not the whole 2 extra pounds it has over similar rifles.