gun bill of sale

I don't know how so-called Bills of Sale for firearms got so twisted around.

A Bill of Sale is a document provided to the buyer by the seller, not the other way around. It is for the benefit of the buyer, and it shows that he has title to the goods. Sellers who insist that the buyer sign a Bill of Sale don't know what a Bill of Sale is.

Under federal law, you can sell a firearm to any resident of your same state so long as you have no reason to believe that the person is prohibited from owning a firearm. I've sold a few that way. I checked for an in-state driver license, money went one way, the firearm went the other, and two people parted company. There is no reason to make it more complicated than that. As far as federal law is concerned, you have no obligation to keep any sales records at all.

There are those who insist on documenting the transaction. You can if you want. You can also require that the buyer show up in a kilt as a condition of sale if you like.

I won't sell any of mine without a BOS with Drivers Lincence #s either.

The buyer doesn't have to like it. These are my requirements not theirs.

If they don't like it they can go somewhere else.

Vector said:

Do you require a BOS at garage sales for a toaster or other misc items?
We know you don't, so you are making a special requirement for a gun, aren't you?

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Strawman alert: There is quite a bit of obvious difference between a 2 dollar toaster and a 400$+ gun. If I give you cash over ,say 50$, I want a reciept for my money. If I purchase any good or service from you for a like amount I want a bill of sale, especially if it could be work related.

tightgroup tiger said:

I won't sell any of mine without a BOS with Drivers Lincence #s either.

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Giving your DL number out leaves you open to identity theft, that is my primary reason for refusing to allow people to copy my DL.

No way I'm gonna have a fourth investigator come up to me about a firearm down the road showing up in a bad scenario and just say, "...some dude."

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You are no more covered by showing them a BOS than by saying "I sold the firearm to 'some dude' in a perfectly legal transaction". Your BOS isn't getting you off the hook any faster with the cops / ATF than a verbal statement as your BOS has no more legal standing than your verbal statement.

That being said, while I personally do not like BOS's or receipts, I certainly respect your choice to not do business without them.

It's certainly your choice on a BOS...just as it's mine NOT to do so, and to point out that there is absolutely no legal requirement to have 'em - nor any real legal benefit over not havin' one.

Having said that, I'm reminded that our forefathers gave their personal fortunes - and many, their lives - to win and keep our freedoms.......and obviously, some are willing to simply give them back to an overbearing government for a false sense of security.

Sad.....

I also live 35 miles from a state line in a collage town.

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This is an important point as it often applies to me as well. Plus people travel to gunshows from substantial distances at times.

I don't particularly want a bill of sale, but I do want to know that the person I am selling to is a resident of my state. I am not a stickler for legalities, but I am not a fool either. If I am buying, I seldom want an ID as I don't really want to know who they are, but I know of my qualification to own the firearm and I know that I want the gun. I judge the seller as to whether I am comfortable about buying from them in the first place. My fear is buying a stolen firearm.

Denton made an important point as well regarding the purpose of a bill of sale. You may remember western movies where people were hanged because they were accused and judged to be horse or cattle rustlers because they didn't have a bill of sale.

Honestly speaking, I am indifferent to the whole bill of sale thing. I sometimes do and sometimes don't. But the ID thing is another matter. If the person buying a firearm refuses to show me a DL, I am immediately suspicious if I don't know them. The rules imposed by meeting the Form 4473 "test" are the same whether the gun is from a FFL dealer or an individual. The difference is you don't complete the form with a private sale and you can sell a handgun to an 18 year old. Just because I know your name, does not mean the gun has been "papered".

It is qute easy to document who you are selling to or buying from in a general sense. Most of us have cell phones with camera's. All you have to do is take a picture. You can do the same thing with a DL, but I have never done that. The other amazing thing is I can take a credit card and it costs me essentially nothing to get set up. Things are a changing...

I've done it both ways. I have no problem signing a BOS if a guy wants to have it as his personal butt cover.

My honest opinion: bills of sale can only be used against you in a court of law, not help you. They establish a connection between you and the buyer, and thus some responsibility. At most, you should record the date you sold the firearm. If you can honestly say "I sold that gun X time ago, but I do not remember who to. I have a record of the date, though", that pretty much shows you followed the law.

TexasRedneck said:

There's no requirement for one, and the paperwork itself has ZERO legal standing.:banghead:

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Absolutely incorrect. Person sells a gun, buyer pays by check or money order. Buyer than files a small claims lawsuit saying the gun was never delivered, but has a cancelled check or money order as proof of payment. Even a receipt on a bar napkin with the buyer's signature and date stating they received the gun will hold up in court as proof the gun was delivered.

Or buyer pays in cash. Seller files a small claim lawsuit that payment was never received after the gun was transferred. Again a receipt with the seller's signature and date that they received $XXX will hold up in court.

There is nothing wrong with making/requesting a receipt for an item or cash received.

NavyLCDR, that's not really a problem, except with black-powder firearms, as all others cannot be shipped directly to a person and the FFL must record the 4473 when it's transferred. There will be a paper record showing it, and you will also have a shipping receipt showing you shipped a package of its approximate weight. Otherwise, it was a direct physical transfer and money changed hands in an irreversible transaction. If you want to protect yourself, only accept cash or postal money orders.

WardenWolf said:

NavyLCDR, that's not really a problem, except with black-powder firearms, as all others cannot be shipped directly to a person and the FFL must record the 4473 when it's transferred.

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Again, incorrect information. Firearms can be shipped directly between residents of the same state.

I usually just ask for a DNA sample from the buyer and call it a deal.

Never sold a single gun... can't figure out why. =/

Wardenwolf said...They establish a connection between you and the buyer, and thus some responsibility. At most, you should record the date you sold the firearm. If you can honestly say "I sold that gun X time ago, but I do not remember who to. I have a record of the date, though", that pretty much shows you followed the law.

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If you sell or buy something to someone, there is already a connection. The bill of sale really only reinforces that connection. If I go to the trouble of asking for an ID, I will record their name for my personal information and I will notice what their address is. But I won't record the address as some people find that troublesome.

If push came to shove on a gun purchase or sale in terms of the "connection", the connection will be established in court unless both parties fail to identify the other.

I record that I sold the gun to Joe Smith or whoever on x/xx/2012 for x$.

I know this is not a favorite discussion point about firearms, but eventually all sales will go through FFL dealers in my opinion. I will fight this to the end, but eventually it will happen in "closing the gunshow loophole" legislatively.

I don't believe any state requires a bill of sale for a firearm transfer between 2 individuals. Assuming both parties are legally allowed to have the firearm in the first place. BOS is more about CYA (cover your...that part) for the seller. If I took my P94 and sold it. Say 2 years later it was recovered at a crime scene, they run the serial and my name was the last 4473 filled out for it, it is on me. If I have a bill of sale it is all about "nuh-uh" I sold it on so and so date to so and so. In a day and age where everybody is suing everyone for everything, why wouldn't you fill out a BOS over something as dare say it controversial (right now) as a firearm?

Illinois requires a BOS for any private sales or transfers. You must record the buyer/seller info, their FOID number, date, description of weapon, and serial number. You must then keep it for 10 years.

You can scribble all this stuff on a napkin if you want to, doesn't really matter what you put it on but the transfer needs to be documented.

Bill of sale if used should probably record the gun description; manufacturer, model, caliber, and serial number.

Then both the buyer and seller's names and if you prefer addresses. People move. Use the driver's license address. Then of course price and date.

It is not a big deal. Sometimes one party or the other is uncomfortable with this, so you could loose a sale. In which case, you have to decide how important this is to you.

NavyLCDR....please show me a court case where this has happened. I don't accept checks/MO's for FTF sales - and if it's a shipped gun, I have documented proof of shipment if in-state, 4473 at the receiving FFL if out of state.

TexasRedneck said:

NavyLCDR....please show me a court case where this has happened. I don't accept checks/MO's for FTF sales - and if it's a shipped gun, I have documented proof of shipment if in-state, 4473 at the receiving FFL if out of state.

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Seriously?!? It's COMMON SENSE! You say I did not pay you for goods or services I received. I show the court a receipt that you signed for the payment you received from me. Your case is dismissed.

http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/8jd/pdfs/SMALLCLAIMSBOOKfinal.pdf

PREPARING FOR HEARING
1. Evidence
Before your hearing, you should gather all evidence necessary to prove your
claim or your defense. Anything that will help prove the facts in dispute should
be brought to court. This includes photographs, written agreements, an
itemized bill or invoice that is receipted or marked "paid," written estimates of
the cost of the service or repairs, a receipt for the purchase of an item or the
payment debt, canceled checks, and correspondence.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNEW5EJC32XJuiRp1vlvWpZJq9lMsA&cad=rja

2. Documentation and Other Evidence.

Any written matter which describes the “deal” or agreement between the parties, such as a contract, lease, purchase order, bill, receipt, sale document, bank statement, returned check or similar writing should be brought to court and presented as an exhibit.

http://www.michiganlegalaid.org/library_client/elder/item_pricing_rules/html_view

What do I need to prove a scanner overcharge?
You need 1) a sale by scanner, 2) a price marked on the item, and 3) the sales receipt describing the item and showing a different price. If the sale was not made while using a scanner, the seller is violating the act by overcharging, but the penalty provision does not apply. You must go to court for damage as state in Question 3

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Seriously, do you not know the value of presenting receipts / bills of sale in court?

mf-dif said:

Illinois requires a BOS for any private sales or transfers. You must record the buyer/seller info, their FOID number, date, description of weapon, and serial number. You must then keep it for 10 years. .

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"Producible on DEMAND" for ten years. IE; if "they" ask for it, you must be able to show it to them.

mf-dif said:

Illinois requires a BOS for any private sales or transfers. You must record the buyer/seller info, their FOID number, date, description of weapon, and serial number. You must then keep it for 10 years.

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I have a file in which I plan to keep the required information on a person to person in-state gun sale available for the ten year period. A filled out Firearm Bill of Sale is the simplest way for me to comply with the Iliinois law.

If I sell a C&R eligible firearm to anyone, federal law requires a written record of that person's FFL with expiration date, or else his/her name and address to be recorded in my 03 FFL Bound Book. A Firearm Bill of Sale is again the easiest way for me.

I understand that many folks would be uncomfortable (for their own reasons) with allowing me to record such personal information. If it would be a violation of state and/or federal law for me to sell him/her a firearm, then it just will not happen.

Sample from Illinois

Attached is a *.pdf file my son and I worked up as a person to person Firearm Bill of Slae for use in our home state. I have found a number of FOID card holders who are not aware of state firearm transfer requirements, so I spelled several of them out, thus making the thing more complicated than actually required. I use this for any sale or purchase with another individual.

If you live in Texas, or some other righteous place, please DO NOT LOOK AT THE ATTACHED FILE. This warning is added because I do not want to be responsible for any burst blood vessels due to dangerously elevated high blood pressure levels.

I wish you all well, and hope someone may find this useful as a starting point for making their own Bill of Sale. For those who neither want nor need any information when buying or selling firearms, I envy you your freedom.

I've had to deal with a few messy legal situations over the years, and definitely do understand the value of documentation if an issue ever gets before a judge.

Still, I simply cannot imagine two people meeting and exchanging cash for a firearm, and then having one of the parties sue the other for not delivering the goods. The judge is going to ask, "Do you have any evidence of non-delivery? No? Just your word against his? You need to convince me, and that won't do it."

Of course, there was a case on one of the TV small claims court programs where a woman was suing one of her boyfriends for giving her trich. I thought that was pretty far fetched. Needless to say, she didn't get far with her claim, but I guess anything is possible.

You folks go ahead and record your BOS', give up ground that so many fought to gain - I'll not buy from you, and when you find that BOS coming back to bite you, I don't want to hear about it. Without notarization, it's not a legal document....but so many have read it on the interwebz, it's got to be true.
Me? Oh, I dunno - hundreds of FTF transactions over the years....2 involved a return visit from LEO's when someone went and did something stupid. "Gun was sold" had them gone from my doorstep without any (gasp) BOS to "prove" I did.

Texas Redneck said:

You folks go ahead and record your BOS', give up ground that so many fought to gain -

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Exactly how is me legally disposing of my private property as I see fit "giving up ground"?

Texas Redneck said:

I'll not buy from you

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Again, and?

Texas Redneck said:

Without notarization, it's not a legal document

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This I agree with, I would also go so far as to say that any time the police approach you in relation to a criminal investigation you're better off speaking to an attorney.

That said, I keep a reciept for my records not the cops