F.B.I. Why .10 mm. over .45 ACP. ?

[DC3-CVN-72]

After the 1986 miami shoot out why did the F.B.I. spend the time & money to develope the .10 mm. that they wattered down with the .40 S&W when we already had the proven .45 ACP. I think the .10 mm. is a grate round and I love my S&W model 1006, but if their was that big a problem with the .9 mm. why not imeditaly arm the field agents with .45 ACP. handguns ?

 

[SubSolar]

If I remember correctly, the 10mm did better than the .45 in their ballistics tests. It was also more accurate than the .45 which was more accurate than the 9mm also in the test.

 

[GunTech]

Penetration. The 10mm beats the 45 hands down.

 

[Jimmy Newman]

Just a note... 9mm and 10mm are 9mm and 10mm, not .9mm and .10mm.

They just set out with some research to try to find the optimum pistol caliber and came up with the 10mm. Of course, it turned out to be more than a lot of the people who weren't willing to practice a lot could learn to shoot well, so they ended up toning it down.

 

[jamesr]

It was a knee jerk reaction, the 10mm was over kill. But honestly 10mm makes a 45acp look like a 9mm.

I wish the 10mm would make a come back, I think it is a great caliber.

My question is what the hell did they make the 45gap for

It has the same ballistics as the 45acp, but is allows for a little smaller grip. Was that really worth another cailber?

 

[The Canuck]

So why does the HRT and FBI SWAT use the .45 ACP? Not being catty, genuinely curious.

 

[jamesr]

So why does the HRT and FBI SWAT use the .45 ACP? Not being catty, genuinely curious.

Each dept does ballistics tests, and chooses a caliber. It was probably a mix of reasons. But they could switch to the 357-sig or 40 s&w next year. Most depts change as they continue to review their choice.

 

[DC3-CVN-72]

I guess what I was getting at when I started this thread was if .9 mm. was so bad why did the F.B.I. not immediatly change over to .45 ACP. untill something else could be developed. I'm not saying that the .45 ACP. is more powerfull than the .10 mm. just that we already had the .45 ACP. dose that make sence.

 

[Quiet]

The FBI went with the 10mmAuto after the Miami incident, in which the current issue 9x19mm ammo was deemed to be lacking in effectiveness.

Original 10mmAuto loads were deemed to be too much for the average FBI agent to handle so it was underloaded. S&W and Winchester noticing that they could achieve the same ballistics as the 10mmAuto FBI load by shortening the 10mmAuto case, created the .40S&W.

After several years of service, the S&W Model 1076 and 10mmAuto was deemed to be too impractical for the average FBI agent and a new search was on for a new service pistol. In the interm, the FBI issued out 9x19mm Sigarms P-226 & P-228.

During the time period the S&W Model 1076 was adopted and used, the FBI adopted the H&K MP-5/10 as their standard submachinegun. Full power 10mmAuto rounds were used in the MP-5/10 and not the underloaded 10mmAuto FBI load.

During this time period, FBI SWAT was using 9x19mm Sigarms P-226 and FBI HRT was using 9x19mm Browning Hi-Powers. FBI HRT put out a RFP for a replacement (.45ACP hi-cap 1911) to their used & abused Browning Hi-Powers. Les Bear won the contract and the FBI HRT was issued the Les Bear/Para-Ordnance P-13.45 SRT. After problems surfaced concerning the reliability of the P-13.45, the HRT switched back to their Browning Hi-Powers. A few years after, FBI SWAT put out a RFP for a replacement (.45ACP single stack 1911). Springfield Armory won the contract and the FBI SWAT & HRT were issued the Springfield Armory Bureau Model.

Years later and after realizing what they really wanted was the .40S&W and not an underloaded 10mmAuto, the FBI adopted the .40S&W and the Glock Model 22 & Model 23 for issue to HRT/SWAT FBI agents.

The H&K MP-5/10 is still the standard issue submachinegun.

What this all means.
9x19mm is good enough to get you by.
10mmAuto (FBI light load) not so great for regular Agents.
.40S&W great for regular Agents.
.45ACP great for Agents who have to CQB.
10mmAuto (full-power loads) great subgun round.

 

[Quiet]

I guess what I was getting at when I started this thread was if .9 mm. was so bad why did the F.B.I. not immediatly change over to .45 ACP. untill something else could be developed. I'm not saying that the .45 ACP. is more powerfull than the .10 mm. just that we already had the .45 ACP. dose that make sence.

FBI Agents come in all shapes and sizes and it was deemed that not all of them could handle the recoil of a .45ACP handgun.
Hence the reason, why it is still limited to FBI Agents with additional firearms training (ie. HRT & SWAT).

 

[Zoogster]

They tested many rounds and arrived at the 10mm as the ultimate pistol round for the job based on numerous results.

It had a high capacity and smaller frame, but the main reason was the ballistics. Officers often find themselves facing individuals in vehicles. The 10mm is great for penetration, but also expands excellent with the high velocity. In a proper firearm it has recoil on par with a .45, but aimed follow-up shots are actualy faster because it is more of a snap rather than a push. It also is extremely flat shooting, where you aim is where you hit for quite a range.

The reason the FBI stopped using it was because several small framed females were threatening to file sexual discrimination lawsuits because they said the firearm qualifications were sexist favoring thier male counterparts with the 10mm. This was not just due to the round, but because it was being fired out of a .45ACP frame still equiped with a much weaker .45 ACP recoil spring that was allowing the slide to get slammed around acting as a pendalum throwing shots wide.
So they started to load the round to lower performance to make up for a bad spring, rather than upgrade the spring (they were not aware of it at the time.)
So a great round chosen because it was the best for the job was traded for a round that was best for the gun in a poor configuration.
Then the .40SW was born because gun makers saw the ability to use 9mm frames chambered in this weak loading and knew it would be far cheaper to simply rechamber thier many existing 9mm platforms than have to make new ones suitable for the 10mm.

So the 10mm was selected because it was the best for the job, and the .40SW replaced it to due to greed and profit.
Law enforcement followed the FBI lead and the .40SW now holds the spot the 10mm was destined to hold.

So something as small as the wrong stock recoil spring in a pistol chambered for an introduced round can and did change the future of the round.

The .45ACP on the other hand works great at close range against human tissue, but starts to quickly degrade if anything is in the way. It is quite wide for the energy it contains, and consequently fewer rounds can be held in a firearm of standard dimensions. Its width also causes it to lose velocity while penetrating barriers far quicker.
I would say one of the big reasons the .45ACP is chosen for CQB type work is because it is a great defensive round, but due to its very poor ballistic coeffecient is one of the safest defensive rounds to be hit with while wearing body armor. It may pack a punch, but it won't be getting through.
The paramilitary type teams you mention are also military type units, and a handgun is simply a secondary weapon, so capacity concerns are not as much of an issue.

You also mention 9mm and 10mm as if the only thing seperating the two is the 1mm in thier description, and thier choice in switching over is a matter of upgrading a single mm. They are completely different rounds, not even comparable in the ballistics department. Just like a .44 magnum and a .45 are in no way comparable. A similar name does not make a similar cartridge.

Officers died because of poor performance of pistol rounds on Michael Platt.
The performance issue was fixed because of that, and then unfixed for political and financial reasons.

Colonel Cooper's perfect pistol round came to life in the form of the 10mm produced by Norma. The fact that the FBI later adopted it based soley on test results of numerous rounds proved it was indeed everything it was envisioned to be before it was even created.
It is unfortunate that things turned out the way they did and we now have widespread and affordable .40SW ammunition instead of 10mm ammunition.

 

[[email protected]]

The 10mm and the .40 S@W both out perform the 9mm and the .45 Lots of people will argue this point but never the less, it`s a fact. I`ve sold all of my 9mm`s and I`m now trying to gather a few .40`s. I don`t understand the statement about a 10mm making a .45 look like a 9mm though. Since I`ve started shooting the .40`s I`ve fell in love, They`re hands down the best all around caliber for a handgun that I`ve ever shot. I just wish that they woulda been here sooner.

Try`em and see for yourself. My favorite so far is the CZ 75 B. Just got it and it`s a dream come true.

Oh, if you`ve questioned the ballistics, go here http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/?url=/ballistics/45_auto.html&x=3&y=5 and see for yourself.

 

[[email protected]]

Oh yeah, before the PLACEMENT,PLACEMENT,PLACEMENT guys get started, ask yourself this," Would you rather have injured an assailant with a 9mm or a .40 or 10mm?" Easy answerS.

 

[Manan]

As I recall.

As I recall, the 10mm ballistics were superior to other police type rounds, but the reason the FBI did not go with it in the early years was that an exceptable sized frame would not hold up to repeated firing.

Also, concerning the .45 round and penetration; the .45 is a man stopper. It is slower and has less penetration characteristics by design. All of the .45's energy is transferred to a target thereby lessening the chance that the target will continue to be a threat. Most pistol fights happen with just a few feet between a good guy and a bad guy (3 to 7). In police work, it may be sometimes necessary to shoot through something, like a car door or windshield. The .45 many times will not penetrate a car door or windshield. Hence the need for a faster round with more penetration characteristics.

 

[Soybomb]

If you dig around a little you can find a pdf of the FBI's analysis of their options and why they went with 10mm straight from the horses mouth.

 

[Trebor]

There was some internal controversy after the Miami shoot out over what handgun and handgun caliber the FBI should use. There were guys involved in the training and selection who backed .45 ACP. My understanding is the 10mm won out partially on merit and partially because it's backers had more clout within the agency.

So, like a lot of things, it seems internal politics was involved.

My info is from discussions I've read over at The Gun Zone from people who knew some of the details of the selection process. I don't have any links because the threads were quite awhile ago and this is from my memory of those discussions.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The subsequent FBI investigation placed blame for the deaths of their agents on a perceived lack of stopping power exhibited by their 9mm service pistols. They soon began the search to adopt a more powerful caliber. Noting the difficulties of reloading a revolver while under fire, they specified that agents should be armed with semiautomatic handguns.

The Smith & Wesson 1076, chambered for the powerful 10mm Auto round, was chosen as a direct result of the Miami shootout. The recoil of the 10mm Auto later proved too much for some agents to control effectively, and a special reduced velocity loading of the 10mm Auto was developed, commonly referred to as "10mm Lite" or "10mm FBI".

Soon there after, Smith and Wesson realized the large case of the 10mm Auto was not necessary to produce the reduced ballistics of the FBI load. Smith and Wesson developed a shorter cased cartridge based on the 10mm that would ultimately replace the 10mm as the primary FBI service cartridge, the .40 S&W.

The .40 S&W became far more popular than its parent, the 10mm Auto, due to the ability to chamber the shorter cartridge in standard frame automatic pistols designed for the 9 mm Para. Other than a .142" reduction in overall case length, resulting in less gun powder capacity in the .40 S&W, the 10mm and .40 S&W are identical, both using the same .400" caliber bullets

 

[Bullet]

You might look here -

http://home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/history.htm

 

[sleeperj21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986

 

[Harley Quinn]

These two guys that were the suspects in this famous shoot out were just very hard core bad a-- folk. They were killed and they killed.

The guns they were shooting, was what? What killed and wounded the officers that were involved?
Weapons
Suspects
Ruger Mini-14 rifle
S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver
Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver
S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun
FBI
Smith & Wesson .357 and .38 Special revolvers
Smith & Wesson 459 9mm pistols
Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun

This is what was there that day:
*********
Then came the killing:

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

So that is what changed the pistol to 10 mm and 40 S&W.

 

[.357 magnum]

Penetration!

The 10mm is better for penetration through barriers. Especially Car doors and windshield glass. I prefer the .45, it is a little better Man Stopper, more ammo choices and easier to shoot.

The Best to All!

Frank

 

[azredhawk44]

These two guys that were the suspects in this famous shoot out were just very hard core bad a-- folk. They were killed and they killed.

The guns they were shooting, was what? What killed and wounded the officers that were involved?
Weapons
Suspects
Ruger Mini-14 rifle
S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver
Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver
S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun
FBI
Smith & Wesson .357 and .38 Special revolvers
Smith & Wesson 459 9mm pistols
Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun

This is what was there that day:
*********
Then came the killing:

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

So that is what changed the pistol to 10 mm and 40 S&W.

Reading between the lines on Harley's post, one could also deduce that the FBI agents HAD a powerful cartridge in the form of the .357 magnum already. They just couldn't shoot very well.

What's the FBI loadout for .38 and .357? Isn't .38 a 158gr LSWCHP, and the .357 is a 125gr JHP? Neither of those is a slouch in any regards.

I also think the 10mm got pole-axed by politics, and I refuse to own a .40 short-and-weak. If I didn't have magnum revolvers, I would be looking into a 10mm auto handgun.

 

[Trebor]

IIRC, the FBI .357's were loaded with the standard FBI .38 Special load, as per FBI policy.

 

[RNB65]

IIRC, the FBI .357's were loaded with the standard FBI .38 Special load, as per FBI policy.

That's correct. Five of the FBI agents carried revolvers that were chambered in either .357 Mag or .38 Special. However, none of them had .357 Mag ammo. They all used .38 Special +P ammo.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

 

[Landric]

IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.

Overall, the Silvertip worked very well (and I suspect it still does). If anything the FBI did the law enforcement world a great disservice by promoting the Winchester Olin Super Match 147 grain JHP as a better overall law enforcement/self-defense round than the 115 grain Silvertip. The circumstances encountered in the "Miami Shootout" were quite unique. No single weapon or ammunition can possibly cover all possible situations.

That said, I think the 10mm is a great pistol cartridge, and I would much rather the FBI and law enforcement in general stuck with it in its full-power loading. It is really not that hard to control in guns like the S&W 1076, it packs a punch, and it is very accurate. I've been in law enforcement over 11 years. Anyone who has enough upper body strength to be able to handle themselves on the street can control a full-power 10mm (and yes, that includes small framed females, I have worked with several who were tough as nails and probably stronger than I am). People who cannot shoot the 10mm can also not shoot the .40S&W, the .45ACP, the 9x19mm, or the .38 Special. They just cannot shoot and use the complaint that the 10mm recoils too much as a crutch to point a finger elsewhere. The grip on single stack 10mm pistols is also slim enough that just about anyone can handle one. No single handgun works for everyone of course.

Too bad the 10mm didn't stick around in greater numbers, I'd love the 10mm ammo and brass to be more affordable so I could shoot mine more.