F.B.I. Why .10 mm. over .45 ACP. ?

[Harley Quinn]

One thing that is not mentioned but probably known about the Mini 14...It was a 223, I am thinking.
It killed one of the FBI with a shot to the chest (wearing a bullet proof vest or not he died from the one shot).
The other FBI agent was shot twice in the head with this weapon and another in the groin.
That accounts for 2 dead and one wounded.

The firearms that the FBI used obviously did hit the suspects but not hard enough to kill them out right.

The 40 S&W has become the favorite it seems of late.

I have a bent for the 357 Sig and the 400 Corbon recently. I like the 10 mm also. The 45 in +P is nice.

The xtra rounds are nice to have in a 9mm auto (glock hi cap mags). But they seem to have gone over to the 40 big time in LEO.
There is some very good ammo out now and if you see the time frame of this shooting (21 years ago) a lot of money and research has gone into the firearms industry.

I personally would feel that a nice 40 cal would do the trick for most of the LEO also.

 

[Soybomb]

IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.

I'm not following. A shot was placed in path with the heart but didn't penetrate deeply enough to reach the heart and the failure is shot placement? It seems like thats an example of perfect shot placement and a failure of the ammunition to perform as needed, even if it performed as designed. I believe it was the final wake up call that shots aren't straight into the chest right to the heart but sometimes might take a less direct path first, including through other tissue like an arm in this case.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf][/url]
Ammunition Failure - Dove made perfect shot, gun worked perfectly, bullet failed to do what was necessary.
Had bullet met currently established FBI standards, Platt's heart would have been penetrated and he could have lasted 30 seconds or so - not the four minutes plus after which he killed Grogan and Dove.

So how is shot placement to blame?

As to the original poster, see page 6 of this document for the answer to your question stright from the FBI http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

 

[silversport]

soybomb...you have it closer to the truth...I remember this day well...I used this very incident to finally convince my Chief to switch from revolvers to semi-autos as did many departments...the Winchester Silvertip did EXACTLY what it was designed to do under the older FBI protocol...Relative Incapacitation Index I believe it was called...the one that said a .380ACP was just as well as a .45ACP (that WAS the thinking)...IIRC 10" of penetration and stop...the study of the rounds placed with Silvertips was that they were placed very well...the shooter did his part...the bullet did what it was designed to do...penetrate 10" and stop...it di its part...the RII never took into consideration that the bullet might have to penetrate arms, hands. legs before getting to the stuff to end the fight...one round took out the Aorta but the shooter kept firing and waging Hell...
Bill

 

[Landric]

The agent that fired the round that "would have killed Platt" if it has penetrated more deeply fired 29 rounds from his S&W 9mm and scored only that one hit. That is a failure of shot placement. Again, the bullet did exactly what it was designed to do. There is no single chambering or type of bullet or penetration depth that is going to work for all possible situations. A bullet that would have penetrated to the heart and possibly killed Platt sooner also might well have over-penetrated and killed an innocent bystander in a straight on frontal shooting under different circumstances. There is no magic bullet.

I'm not claiming that I would have faired better under these unique set of circumstances, however, one does have to question the tactics. The FBI, who are supposed to be the elite of law enforcement, went into a situation where they knew they were looking for heavily armed suspects; they had only a couple of long guns, only a couple were wearing body armor, and when they spotted the suspects, they did not call for law enforcement backup before making the unusual decision to run the suspects off the road.

There were a lot of failures in this situation which we can all learn from. Blaming a single bullet is a simple and inaccurate solution to a very complex problem.

That said, we did see a great improvement in handgun ammunition and chambering after this incident, and for that we can be grateful. I think the 10mm in its full-power loadings is an excellent self-defense and law enforcement caliber, and I would be very happy to carry one on-duty.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Landric,
If they fired that much ammo and scored only one hit That is just terrible stats for sure. I don't see where we can go with this other than to say that one hit with a 10mm might have done it

I have said it many times about shooting and being able to control self, in the battle. It is all about training and being able to hit what you aim at.

If you are going to play, the game of "life and death" at any moment at anytime, you have to be prepared with shooting and hitting. One day a month is a minimum after becoming accomplished. I'd prefer it to be one day a week.

These who fail to shoot regularly, and carry are only fooling themselves.

 

[MachIVshooter]

After the 1986 miami shoot out why did the F.B.I. spend the time & money to develope the .10 mm

just that we already had the .45 ACP. dose that make sence.

The FBI did not devlop the 10mm Auto. Dornaus & Dixon did, with help from Norma Cartridge Co. in 1982. The FBI Adopted it, along with the &W 1076 Pistol.

 

[HorseSoldier]

IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.

I think it can be argued that blaming the shoot out's negative outcome on 9mm handguns was the path of least resistance (and least career damage), bureaucratically speaking. Saying the pistols were to blame cast zero negative attention on poor firearms training, poor planning at both the big picture and that day (i.e. bringing mostly pistols to a long gun fight) or on the other questionable actions of the agents actually involved in the shoot out. Publicly scapegoating a bullet/caliber was a lot easier than publicly facing soem hard truths and errors (which were quietly addressed behind the scenes with better training, etc., if I'm not mistaken).

 

[RNB65]

Saying the pistols were to blame cast zero negative attention on poor firearms training, poor planning at both the big picture and that day (i.e. bringing mostly pistols to a long gun fight) or on the other questionable actions of the agents actually involved in the shoot out.

Bingo. The two real failures on that day were:

1. Going out on their mobile surveillance armed only with handguns and one shotgun when they knew from previous armored car robberies that Platt and Matix were armed with a Mini-14 and a shotgun.

2. The spur-of-the-moment decision to try a make a tactical stop of the suspect's car knowing that they were heavily outgunned and with no planning or preperation. Bad, bad decision.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Similar to the CHP shoot out in Newhall we are talking two bad hombres and the luck of the draw was not with the LEO that day either.

Short story here is:
Newhall was the site of the Newhall Incident, in which four California Highway Patrol officers were shot to death on April 6, 1970 during a traffic stop of two heavily armed career criminals. This led to increased emphasis on officer safety both within the CHP and across the nation.

Bad training had led to this one also.
They had 357 Mag ammo in the revolvers, shotguns not being used properly.

37 years ago, hopefully these men have not died in vain.

 

[Outlaws]

My question is what the hell did they make the 45gap for

It has the same ballistics as the 45acp, but is allows for a little smaller grip. Was that really worth another cailber?

The grip on the 1911 is borderline sacred to some people, as is the grip on the full and mid sized Glocks. A lot of 1911 people would like higher capacity, but not at the expense of the grip. Well, a lot of Glock people wanted a larger caliber, but not at the expense of the grip.

I guess deep down inside, Glock people and 1911 people are really the same.

 

[Zoogster]

1. Going out on their mobile surveillance armed only with handguns and one shotgun when they knew from previous armored car robberies that Platt and Matix were armed with a Mini-14 and a shotgun.

I seem to recall at least one of the cars being armed with a select fire MP5 submachinegun. It was in the trunk however and never entered into the firefight.

The bad guys also were highly trained prior military police themselves. They did not wait for the police to initiate the encounter, or sit tight pinned down while the officers brought the fight to them like 95% of criminals do.

Platt aimed the mini 14 from his spot in the passenger seat putting the muzzle in front of the driver and firing out the driver's side window right at the passing officer he knew was tailing him. He then crawled out the window of a vehicle with both doors jammed shut from the obviously violent impact while under fire and being hit, and advanced on the officers using his military training before they could adjust to the situation or recover from the crash. That is no ordinary reaction by a suspect. Most would have either sat in thier vehicle, exhanged gunfire from thier vehicle or in a stationary position, or attempted to flee on foot, or at least become stationary after taking hits.

His partner the driver who was quickly put out of commission from a bullet to the back of the head which existed out the front of his facing taking a chunk of it with it still somehow managed to revive later and get in the new vehicle. So after having a rifle muzzle fired in front of his face from inches away in an enclosed vehicle(surely making him deaf at least temporarily), and then taking a hit through the back of the head that exited out of his face he got up and rejoined the scene. That shows some serious determination.
I dare say if he had remained in the fight and the two had been able to move as a fire team many more if not all of the agents would have died. He tried to get out but his door was jammed shut from the impact, and he fired one round and was then hit.
He of course would die unarmed, executed huddled in a fetal position trying not to be shot by the officer while still suffering from the head shot earlier. Someone however can have little sympathy for either of those two who had ruthlessly killed innocent people prior, that is even how they aquired thier firearms to begin with.

 

[ccmdfd]

Oh heavens! It's been quite some time since I read up on the Miami incident, so I may be a little rusty.

Didn't the infamous 9mm silvertip actualy puncture on of the main vessels in the chest? I thought it actually was a "lethal" shot, but as is often the case, the lethality wasn't instantaneous, and before that particular wound could cause incapacitation, the suspect was able to go about shooting other agents. The few extra inches of penetration may have ended the fight sooner, but then again, nothing is ever certain in these instances.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Interesting how one of the premier penetration rounds, the 9mm was unable to penetrate...Or just missed a fatal location The infamous mushroom round.